Delrin Tube Style Res Complete!

Top Nurse

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nikhsub1 said:
Exactly. I don't intend to get rich, lmfao. I'll do it (if reasonable) for just above what it costs me.

What's wrong with making money? It gives you money to make more goods and in turn make more money. I told Wes at Sharka 6 months ago that he could have Aquatubes machined here in the states for considerably less than the price it takes to import them.
 

Erasmus354

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Top Nurse said:
What's wrong with making money? It gives you money to make more goods and in turn make more money. I told Wes at Sharka 6 months ago that he could have Aquatubes machined here in the states for considerably less than the price it takes to import them.

Some people aren't necessarily in it for the money. A prime example would be the forum member here dave_graham whom I got my Opty 165 from. He sold me a 300$ processor and only took a 5$ cut out of it. That is only 1.5%. He has been doing a lot of volume though.

If the part costs 30$ to machine, and 30$ in raw materials charging 100$ would be a bit steep. If you are not in it for the sole purpose of making money a 15% markup is more than sufficient to cover time and effort.

The way I see it nikhsub just wanted a delrin Aquatube style resevoir, making a production run of them is just a hobby/some way to make a little back from the time and effort spent making the 3 prototypes for himself.
 

Top Nurse

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Usually if it sells for a $100 it better not cost more than $10-$15 to make or you got major problems.
 

Justintoxicated

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Top Nurse said:
Usually if it sells for a $100 it better not cost more than $10-$15 to make or you got major problems.

Of course in these cases there is usualy overhead costs, healthcare for the woorkers, insurance, rent, costs etc, not simply materials + labor. Usualy people don't like to buy things that cost too much more than the materials, and definately not twice as much, then again you have to cover yourself for how much your time is worth.

Anyways I'm somewhat interested in one of these although it would be used in conjunction with a T-line just for show mostly, so that i can see the liquid moving and know the pump is flowing properly :)

I wonder how much performance I would lose by adding tubing back up to the top of my stacker for the additional Rez?
 

CrimandEvil

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Erasmus354 said:
Also, have you contacted DD to see if they would give you a bulk discount on the barbs? DD acts as a distributor for Thermochill so I am sure they are used to offering bulk prices.
While he's at it he should ask if they'd like to manufacture these for him or something like that. This are pretty tight res and I'm sure they'll want to atleast take a look.
 

sykocus

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If you sold it for $100 you would probably only get orders from the really dedicated anti-corrosion people. If you decided to sell them at a a price more competitive to the other similar models on the market, then you would probably get orders from a wider base of people could possibly get a large enough number of orders to give you a larger profit.

I'll be honest $100 is more then what I'd be willing to pay. I appreciate the high quality that you've put into this, but I'm more intrested in in the 1/2 barbs. I'd rather save $45-$35 and tap out the threads of one of the other models myself.
 

nikhsub1

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whoa easy guys, I haven't said what they will cost as I still don't know, the machinest told me he'd call me, he did but without figures :eek: If the cost will be so high as $100, I don't think I'd bother to make them.
 

mwin

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Looks like something I might be interested in. Let us know when you start to get a handle on pricing.
 

nikhsub1

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Update, sigh. Just got off the phone with the machinist. First I have a materials update:

Delrin Cost = $14
3 Legris Plugs = $1.80
2 Barbs = $5
12 Button Allens = $1.15
O-Ring = $1.50
------------------------------------
Parts Total (Glass not included here, included with machine time)
$23.45 <---- not too bad IMO, but alas, there could be a 15% - 20% variance here.

Machine time, gulp. This is for the Delrin body, to lathe, groove, drill tap etc.

50 pieces = $27.15
100 pieces = $24.02
200 pieces = $22.05

The glass is higher than I expected but whatever. Actually now that I think about it, it isn't THAT bad. I had estimated that the glass itself would cost $3 per piece so $3.31 to machine each one seems reasonable, just a bit higher than what I had in my head though. Again, the below pricing INCLUDES the material and labor.

50 pieces = $6.31
100 pieces = $5.52
200 pieces = $5.08

So to sum it all up, lol, the materials cost is not really going to change as I never plan to do a huge quantity of these. My plan for now, is that if there is enough interest, I will do a run of 20 pieces and take it from there. I still don't have pricing on the mounts, the bay mount or the square top mount. I can't imagine the square mount to cost more than $10 or the bay mount to cost more than $30.

So for just the reservoir with all the parts but no mounting costs are:

Parts = $23.45
Delrin Labor = $27.15
Acylic Part & Labor = $6.31
TOTAL COST = $56.91

Now with a run of only 20, the above cost will be higher, around $60. So now what is fair to me would be to charge ~$75 per res, no mount hardware. Well then, there you have it, no cheap venture. If you want one of the 20, please PM me.
 

CrimandEvil

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Thats not too bad, I was thinking around $80 would be competive with the AC and Innovatic (sp?) tubes (the Inno being something like $78, the AC around $70).

I thought it would be alittle far out of my price range but hopefully I can get some extra cash together and get one at some point.

I still think that you should email DD and see if they'd like to sell them, I'm sure they'll be interested in something this cool (I think it would fit perfectly with their line).

That said, I really want one of these, just wish I had the cash to get one right now. :(
 

Derrick70

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nikhsub1 said:
Yeah I just can't really compete with that price, that is less than my cost... lol.

im not saying you have to. your price is right a round where it should be. im not giving you any shit :)
 

CrimandEvil

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Derrick70 said:
im not saying you have to. your price is right a round where it should be. im not giving you any shit :)
For sure, for starters they're threaded for G1/8 fittings.

I do wonder how much it would cost to have a tube made from aluminum? Could you check with your machinist?
 

Hard911

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why would you want to made out of aluminum, I have AC Tube w/ 1/2" ID barbs if you want one please PM me :) I don't want NO aluminum in my loop at all
 

nikhsub1

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Let me address some questions. This res will NOT WORK WITH AC Aquatube Brackets or face plates, period. If you have an aquabay, all you would need is the faceplate, which I could provide. If someone would be kind enough to send me the dimentions of the faceplate for the aquatube, that would rock. Better yet, if someone has a spare they could send me so I could measure that would rock harder, lol. I of course would send it back. Same goes for the fass-o-matic mount plate, if someone has one I could borrow, id pay for ship both ways... my delrin res 'might' fit the fass-o-matic mounts or could perhaps be suited to do so.
 

BioPort

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i would be interested in a faceplate to fit my aquabay... but why dont you just measure the one you have?

that bay adapter in your pics is an honest-to-god aquabay.

edit: dont make the faceplates out of diamondplate... just plain aluminum would be best. that way i could have it annodized.
 

nikhsub1

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OK, here are my thoughts. I am going to try to make my res mate right up to the existing AC mounts for the aquatube :D So if you have an aquatube and it is mounted, you just drop my res in it's place. I think this will be the best situation for all. That means that the 'DelRez' will be 5 bolt and 5 bolt instead of 6 and 6. Now, my res is 3.5 inches long (thought it was 3" hehe) so if you have an aquabay with the pump and all that, it may be too long. I am NOT going to make it shorter though, so please dont ask, it is the perfect lenght IMO. TN and R1ckCa1n have volunteered to send me the faceplate for the tube, and hopefully one of them has an aquatube for me to borrow as well.
 

nikhsub1

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BioPort said:
i would be interested in a faceplate to fit my aquabay... but why dont you just measure the one you have?

that bay adapter in your pics is an honest-to-god aquabay.

edit: dont make the faceplates out of diamondplate... just plain aluminum would be best. that way i could have it annodized.
No diamond plate man, unless requested. Need to source brushed silver and black al. Anyone got any leads?
 

Top Nurse

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nikhsub1 said:
whoa easy guys, I haven't said what they will cost as I still don't know, the machinest told me he'd call me, he did but without figures :eek: If the cost will be so high as $100, I don't think I'd bother to make them.

If you decide not to make them how about sending me the machining program and I will make them. :D BTW, I will send you that stuff tomorrow to the address you gave me. Will also send you a spare Aquatube I got. :)
 

nikhsub1

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Top Nurse said:
If you decide not to make them how about sending me the machining program and I will make them. :D BTW, I will send you that stuff tomorrow to the address you gave me. Will also send you a spare Aquatube I got. :)
TY! Will definately be a big help!
 

Top Nurse

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nikhsub1 said:
So for just the reservoir with all the parts but no mounting costs are:

Parts = $23.45
Delrin Labor = $27.15
Acylic Part & Labor = $6.31
TOTAL COST = $56.91

Now with a run of only 20, the above cost will be higher, around $60. So now what is fair to me would be to charge ~$75 per res, no mount hardware. Well then, there you have it, no cheap venture. If you want one of the 20, please PM me.

Like I said a price of around $100 would be very competitive. A little history is in order as big bore Aquatubes have been made in the past. IIRC Bitchbreaker was charging about $40 on top of the base price of an Aquatube to mod them to 1/4 NPT. So that equals about $90-$100. Innovatek already sells aluminum Aquatubes with 1/4 BSPP for about $75 in this country. So I don't see $100 being that out there in price.

BTW, I would highly recommend you to use 1/4 BSPP threads in your tube to minimize cracking problems associated with using a tapered pipe thread. You can get BSPP taps from McMaster-Carr as well as other machine shop supply houses here in the LA area.
 

Derrick70

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nikhsub1 said:
No diamond plate man, unless requested. Need to source brushed silver and black al. Anyone got any leads?

i can do 1/4in plexi front face plate covers
 

nikhsub1

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Top Nurse said:
BTW, I would highly recommend you to use 1/4 BSPP threads in your tube to minimize cracking problems associated with using a tapered pipe thread. You can get BSPP taps from McMaster-Carr as well as other machine shop supply houses here in the LA area.
TN if you read my OP, you would see I am using G 1/4" barbs... which are BSPP.
 

Erasmus354

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Top Nurse said:
Like I said a price of around $100 would be very competitive. A little history is in order as big bore Aquatubes have been made in the past. IIRC Bitchbreaker was charging about $40 on top of the base price of an Aquatube to mod them to 1/4 NPT. So that equals about $90-$100. Innovatek already sells aluminum Aquatubes with 1/4 BSPP for about $75 in this country. So I don't see $100 being that out there in price.

Your almost acting like your trying to encourage nikhsub to price his resevoir right out of the market. Are you afraid if he were to sell his delrin res at 75$ a pop that sales of aquatubes would decline? 75$ is a very reasonable price, a markup of 25% is typical. Your suggested markup of 66% is huge, especially considering he is not doing this as a business venture. When I used to work at Target a few years ago the typical markup on items was 20-30%.
 

nikhsub1

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Yeah I'm sure I'd sell some at $100, but my goal is NOT TO MAKE MONEY. I don't care, I own my own consulting firm, I'm doing pretty well :D Sure money is nice, but at the same time, I'd like to offer these to people for reasonable prices and have them enjoy them, that is satisfaction enough for me.
 

Top Nurse

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Erasmus354 said:
Your almost acting like your trying to encourage nikhsub to price his resevoir right out of the market. Are you afraid if he were to sell his delrin res at 75$ a pop that sales of aquatubes would decline? 75$ is a very reasonable price, a markup of 25% is typical. Your suggested markup of 66% is huge, especially considering he is not doing this as a business venture. When I used to work at Target a few years ago the typical markup on items was 20-30%.

20-30% on a few billion dollars in sales is pretty damn good. The reason Target can get by on a lower profit margin is the phenomenal amount of sales they do. BTW, I can tell you don't have much knowledge about business as a $60 cost and a $100 sales price only correlates to a 40% profit margin. Markup of a product is really irrelevant.

Whenever a product comes on the market it is always good to do a market analysis to see where you should sell something for. Sell for the highest price you can get is the way of a free market place and capitalism. As you ramp up production the benefits of reduced economies of scale come into play. Personally I see a golden opportunity here to make a few bucks as this product has world-wide application with an initial sales figure of 300-500 units in the first year alone.

Whatever the price of this product I don't even think it would put a dent in Innovatek's or AC sales of Aquatubes as the primary market will not be those who like the German imports.
 

sprocket

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TN has some very valid points.
Furthermore, you are ignoring some other "costs" inherent in a small project like this.
Is your machinist handing these to you or must you drive over and pick them up?
Are they fully assembled or will you be doing that?
Packaging/shipping= time and money.
Who will minding the store...certainly there will be multitudinous emails to answer, most of which will be deadends and not result in a sale.
What about damage in shipping or just plain dissatisfaction with the product?

Two members of forums that I can think of who've tried to pull off similar deals might be instructive to talk to...Matt of Stasis Thermal (aka, consumer9000) and Weapon.
Weapon's heatercores and shrouds were topnotch (in fact Nik, don't you have one of his Monstercores?), but he seems to have dropped off the face of the earth and ST, while doing well apparently, has production/delivery issues to overcome.

If your cost is $50-some dollars and you're selling for $75, I'd jump all over one of these (consider this a pre-order request in lieu of a PM).
If it's going to be $100 I'd have to think about it...not because it's an unfair price ("unfair price" being a misnomer- what other manufacturer tells you his material costs upfront anyway?) but because I have no immediate use for such a part and limited disposable income.
I'd prolly still want one at the higher price, it'd just take a bit of self-armtwisting to pull the trigger.

At any rate, good luck.
 

Erasmus354

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Top Nurse said:
20-30% on a few billion dollars in sales is pretty damn good. The reason Target can get by on a lower profit margin is the phenomenal amount of sales they do. BTW, I can tell you don't have much knowledge about business as a $60 cost and a $100 sales price only correlates to a 40% profit margin. Markup of a product is really irrelevant.

Whenever a product comes on the market it is always good to do a market analysis to see where you should sell something for. Sell for the highest price you can get is the way of a free market place and capitalism. As you ramp up production the benefits of reduced economies of scale come into play. Personally I see a golden opportunity here to make a few bucks as this product has world-wide application with an initial sales figure of 300-500 units in the first year alone.

Whatever the price of this product I don't even think it would put a dent in Innovatek's or AC sales of Aquatubes as the primary market will not be those who like the German imports.


Your basing your conclusions off of the false assumption (a common logical error in many arguments) that nikhsub is in this venture for the money. He has stated many times that not his objective, in which case a 40% profit margin / 66% markup is quite high.
 

sprocket

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Erasmus354 said:
Your basing your conclusions off of the false assumption (a common logical error in many arguments) that nikhsub is in this venture for the money.
That is not true in my case (the Nurse will speak for herself).
I AM assuming he doesn't want to lose any money though.
Pricing an object simply by the cost of raw materials/labor is third grade economics and will result in an overall loss- even assuming that the entire production run is sold.

I think it's laudable that Nikhsub simply wants to spread the joy as it were, but I certainly don't expect it to cost him.
 

Top Nurse

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Erasmus354 said:
Your basing your conclusions off of the false assumption (a common logical error in many arguments) that nikhsub is in this venture for the money. He has stated many times that not his objective, in which case a 40% profit margin / 66% markup is quite high.

Not at all, I just know all the hidden costs associated with a venture like this. If he sells it for about $90-100 then he will probably break even on a 20 piece run. :)
 

kemist1117

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my company is shooting for 60% gross profit as a stretch goal, im not sure what our actual gross profit is but i wouldnt be surprised if it was in the 40s-50s and we are kind of a bastard child division that is generally considered a not very profitable industry.
 

Erasmus354

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sprocket said:
That is not true in my case (the Nurse will speak for herself).
I AM assuming he doesn't want to lose any money though.
Pricing an object simply by the cost of raw materials/labor is third grade economics and will result in an overall loss- even assuming that the entire production run is sold.

I think it's laudable that Nikhsub simply wants to spread the joy as it were, but I certainly don't expect it to cost him.

It shouldn't cost him, I wholeheartedly agree. However, there isn't much hidden cost in this venture at all really, only time and a little bit of gas to pick up the product from the machinist. He doesn't have to assemble it, merely include all the hardware. All costs associated with shipping (shipping cost, packaging, taking it to the post office) will obviously included in shipping and handling costs which will be in addition to the 75$.

So we are talking about a run of 20 products, he takes 10-15$ profit from each item. That is 200-300$ total to cover paying for his time organizing this, and the cost of one trip to the machinist. Seems reasonable to me. Of course if he does a larger run it is even more cost effective.
 

sykocus

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nikhsub1: When you get a chance. think you could give a run down specs (number of ports, dimentions, capacity, etc.)? Don't need to know down to the hundreth of an inch, but the basic dimentions would be nice. How does redesigning it to mate with the AC faceplate effect the size?
 

BioPort

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in all likelihood, the diameter of the tube will need to be decreased slightly in order for it to fit the aquatube mounting hardware.

i hope that he leaves the original length intact, i for one think the aquatube is a little small.
 

nikhsub1

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sykocus said:
nikhsub1: When you get a chance. think you could give a run down specs (number of ports, dimentions, capacity, etc.)? Don't need to know down to the hundreth of an inch, but the basic dimentions would be nice. How does redesigning it to mate with the AC faceplate effect the size?
3" diameter, 3.5" long, 5 G 1/4 ports, and it holds roughly 175ml. I'm not going to change the size of the res, what will likely happen is the mouth of the res (opening where plexi is) will be smaller than it is now so it can mate to the AC plates. Should not affect capacity either.
 
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