Dell Dimension XPS 400 Evaluation @ [H]

We use a lot of DELL GX260's and 280's at work and talk about slow and problematic. DVD's crash with included software, crappy HD Intel sound is the worse I have ever heard, system takes around 2 minutes to boot (slower then my HP PII) Trying to do more then one thing at a time is a total joke. I guess its a trend.
 
As a few others have said, this review was a perfect example of how far Dell has fallen. May I also say that the review is a good example why you want to build your own box (i.e. quality parts, good software, current drivers, etc.)

I also would have liked to see a review after an OS reinstall. I understand the perfectly legitimate claim that it becomes a different experience if you do that, but I think that claim can be addressed if you offer scores for both before and after. Since Dell is marketing to the gamer, many who purchase the system will know how to and want to do this. It would be helpful to know what they should expect to gain by doing so.
 
I agree with your review and the points you made will hopefully be taken into account by Dell.

Saving $1 to not include the install disks is retarded. Having a reinstall image on the hard drive is a great option as well. If only they would do both.

The Bloatware is crazy, but it's how they are selling the hardware so cheap. There's no reason to have all that junk load on startup when it can load when accessed. I would give them a 0 of out 10 for just that reason.

On the other hand, I really love Dell's computers, the hardware and support for business uers is top notch. We use all Dell hardware at work, and it's really awesome stuff. Business support is great.

I'd recommend a Dell to anyone, at the same time I'll tell them what msconfig is and how to optimize the system when they get it. Some of the other desktops come with 256mb ram installed as the base configuration, yet all the same bloatware is installed, which gives a first impression of "oh my god, this things a slow piece of #%@P".

Loose the bloatware Dell, and then maybe you'll get a review that reflects the hardware and build of your systems better.
 
Spudsdude said:
I agree with your review and the points you made will hopefully be taken into account by Dell.

Saving $1 to not include the install disks is retarded. Having a reinstall image on the hard drive is a great option as well. If only they would do both.

The Bloatware is crazy, but it's how they are selling the hardware so cheap. There's no reason to have all that junk load on startup when it can load when accessed. I would give them a 0 of out 10 for just that reason.

On the other hand, I really love Dell's computers, the hardware and support for business uers is top notch. We use all Dell hardware at work, and it's really awesome stuff. Business support is great.

I'd recommend a Dell to anyone, at the same time I'll tell them what msconfig is and how to optimize the system when they get it. Some of the other desktops come with 256mb ram installed as the base configuration, yet all the same bloatware is installed, which gives a first impression of "oh my god, this things a slow piece of #%@P".

Loose the bloatware Dell, and then maybe you'll get a review that reflects the hardware and build of your systems better.
Click to expand...
Yeah, one thing that I think we need to explore is the seemingly night and day difference between how these companies treat their consumer and business markets.

RE: Bloatware; you can get a similarly powered PC Club system with 19" LCD for about the same price, especially if you live in a state where Dell charges tax and PC Club doesn't.
 
Red Shirt said:
As a few others have said, this review was a perfect example of how far Dell has fallen. May I also say that the review is a good example why you want to build your own box (i.e. quality parts, good software, current drivers, etc.)

I also would have liked to see a review after an OS reinstall. I understand the perfectly legitimate claim that it becomes a different experience if you do that, but I think that claim can be addressed if you offer scores for both before and after. Since Dell is marketing to the gamer, many who purchase the system will know how to and want to do this. It would be helpful to know what they should expect to gain by doing so.
Click to expand...
I think we adequately addressed the performance delta between bloatware and no bloatware by ripping it all out and re-running WorldBench to increase the score from 72 to 88.
 
Major_A said:
I'd like you guys to include a screenshot in System Evaluations from now on. Would you consider showing a SS of the Startup tab in msconfig after the 1st boot? I know that one of my biggest pet peaves is software companies "assuming" I want their program starting with my computer. The fewer the better.
Click to expand...

We actually have those screenshots but it didn't make it into the article. I'll post it here in the forums - give me a second while I format/upload.

This is a good suggestion and although we have a few reviews in the queue, we'll do this for the systems we get in from now on. Thanks!
 
Here's that MSConfig screenshot

msconfig-dell.gif
 
To really drive home the point of the bloat/spy/crap ware that is on that computer why dont you guys reformat the system install winXP Pro and only the drivers that are needed for it to run and then run benchmarks in a side by side comparison showing what the computer is capable of...
Just a thought..
Eddie
 
I sell Dell systems academically at a university, so, technically, we are one of the few Dell retail stores in existance. All of the systems we sell are of the Latitude and Optiplex series of products, preconfigured. The good news is that my salemanship is based off of what is best for the customer, and I am in no way forced to sell to a customer (read: no commission is involved with any of the sales that I make, so, therefore, I feel free to tell people where their money is best spent). Alongside the Dell's we also sell preconfigured IBM's and Apple systems.

I think this review is on the money when broken down into two specific points: the hardware is just fine (not great), but the included software brings down performance and the support is horrible. Academically sold computers from Dell have a specific support line here in the States, like the XPS support line, but only in rare instances do you get a competent support technician on the line, let alone get one who knows how to be friendly and patient with a customer who has little to no knowledge of computers. Being much further away than the [H] folks are from Redmond, turn-around time on support is not nearly as fast. Parts necessary for repairs can take up to and beyond a week to arrive when they are readily available to ship. "Next business day on site" service is more along the lines of "Next few days or a week later, and, if that's inconvenient for you, then it will be another few days before we can try this again."

This is not a new development. Dell has been suffering these issues ever since I started working at my current job a little less than five years ago. They haven't fallen; they were already this bad. The competition has just gotten better, and Dell hasn't changed their sales, marketing, or support strategy because it worked just fine for them for years, so now they seem just as mediocre as any other mediocre system manufacturer that might come to mind when someone mentions horror stories about bad tech support (Toshiba springs forth in the good hardware/horroble support arena).

Keep up the good work [H] guys!
 
yeah I doubt Dell would really care what rating they get--though I care. Everything [H] experienced, most dell owners have been there--done that.

Dell offers outrageous coupons though, and to the more than novice user, Dell is very appealing. One, hardware enthusiasts usually know to ditch the bloatware for a clean install with updated drivers. In most cases, this rids the usual conflicts Dell's OEM software produces. Then, this type of user knows not to buy into their high priced warranty unless it's in their laptop department.

Then Dell has so many back doors to getting what you want depending who you talk to. For example, I rec'd all the OEM XP and Drivers without cost because I used their email customer service...IOW, less questions mean more benefit to the user. It seems that their service does vary from user to user. I personally despise dell for their customer lack of service. THEY NEVER CALL YOU BACK.

I suppose, as the review notes, the novice user will benefit to some of the bloatware..but I just can't see how with the software being ridddled with so many issues.

I think they got a fair rating from [H]...probably better than they deserve.
 
Cytomax said:
To really drive home the point of the bloat/spy/crap ware that is on that computer why dont you guys reformat the system install winXP Pro and only the drivers that are needed for it to run and then run benchmarks in a side by side comparison showing what the computer is capable of...
Just a thought..
Eddie
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what we did when we "mucked out the system" on our Worldbench testing. We kept the OS as WinMCE mostly because we wanted to compare apples to apples - Windows MCE has some overhead from the Media Center program - but that's not Dell's doing, that's Microsoft.
 
yojimbo said:
Being much further away than the [H] folks are from Redmond, turn-around time on support is not nearly as fast.
Click to expand...

Just wanted to point out we're in Austin, Texas. Dell is located in Round Rock, Texas, which is a suburb of Austin. Dell's actually a pretty major employer here in Austin, along with AMD. Austin's kinda known as "Silicon Hills" for that reason. We were going to be "Silicon Gulch" but San Jose, California beat us to it.
 
Mohonri said:
Given that the objective of the review is to gauge the user experience for someone buying it "as is", I think Chris is right. It's a review of the package, including the software. Just think: how many people who buy Dells even know how to install a fresh copy of WinXP, let alone want to do it?

Click to expand...
I think you guys should add "In order to gain maximum performance we at [H] recommend that every new Dell should be reformatted for maximum stability and performance" or something like that. I know that that PC isn't a pile, I just know that every Dell i've used has crashed because of the way they install their OS's.
 
That review seems to be a big crowd pleaser. First rule of writing: know your audience.
 
i used to work doing contracts at dell...there are a couple of things i would like to point out...

the fact the system was shipped with windows mce instead of windows xp probably was the reason no os/application/driver cd's were shipped with the system in the first place...even though they should have. every system is supposed to be shipped with these cd's by default.

yes the bloatware is horrible, if there was a good deal on a dell system i would buy it then just format it and use the cd that should come with the computer...

its funny they ran the first re-install of mce inside of the operating system and bitched they couldn't erase the ntfs partition....lol...of course not...then they booted from the os cd and they magically could....im pretty damn sure that is how it is supposed to work ;)

the tech support people are clowns...enuff said

the reviewers are wrong about the installation process of the operating system/drivers/apps/software on dell systems...even though the reviewers think there are only a handful of systems dell makes there are thousands of possible configs. they do not use complete images for each model of system. the specific os, apps, drivers for that particular system are downloaded over the corporate network and then they are checked to be accurate for that particular config by a proprietary dell software program/s. so at least on the operating/drivers side only the things that need to be installed are...of course they bundle a bunch of bloatware for the cash. every time the software is downloaded on a dell system it is checked three times for viruses, etc to make sure it is clean...they don't want viruses/worms in their network anyway.

being as i have helped develop some dell machines i would have to say the hardware for the most part and the build quality in most cases is actually pretty good....i don't buy manufactured pc's, but i would buy a good deal on a dell if i found one and format the hard drive and go from there....some of the cases/chassis are pretty cheap...like the early xps systems (stupid door in the front was easy to break off and felt cheap as hell). i think they have improved...and the laptops i think are pretty good quality.

they might have crapped on dell in this review...and some rightfully so, but they think they know a lot about how a large computer manufacturer works...and they really do not....some of their presumptions are pretty funny. sounds like a person that builds their own custom boxes w/o knowing the process it takes to ship that many damn systems and still resemble some sort of configurability...it isn't easy...and it takes a lot of work. the people that help develop these systems for the most part really are talented and it takes a lot of work to test so many different configurations...and let me tell you most of every possible configuration is tested...so they can crap on dell, etc...but time really does go into the process. im not saying i wouldnt do some things differently, but it's hard being no.1 and shipping that volume...

anyway...that is my take on things since i actually worked there for a time...
 
First of all, great article. All of it is for the most part true from my experience. The local Dell tech and I agree completely with your score. Like everyone else who commented, when I have to do a recovery I just use the CD if possible.

Secondly, I'd like to state that I am extremely impressed that you guys went the extra step and contacted Microsoft about the restore CD delima.

One thing I'd like to metion is the next day service policy Dell has. Most customers do not read the fine print as it states 'where applicable'. On Maui that translates to 3-4 days because we can't get next day frieght service here. Even so, I still recommend Dell overall to my customers because of the warranty support. While not always the easiest to navigate through thier phone techs, Dell is the only large computer chain that has a local technician. HP, Gateway, etc you have to send the machines off Island either to Ohau or the Mainland.
 
chris morley...

most of the corporate customers of dell probably know a thing or two about computers...

but yes, the individual home user...not so much. i read through your review and i agree with some things (the support is horrible)...and the system didn't come with the cd's it should have (might have had something to do with the os being mce 2005). i understand you wrote your review from the perspective of an unknowledgeable consumer...but take this into light...

if you don't know the first thing about computers is it dell's fault? like that shiny mousepad stuff...ya it's stupid to ship one that won't work well with an optical mouse....but who cares? anyone with an iq over 50 would realize that...

should dell include a computers for dummies book with its systems?

basically if you don't know squat about computers...that is what those tech support people are for...people need to learn to take it upon themselves to figure out/learn about things...it isn't dell's or any other computer manufacturers responsibility in my opinion.

i do agree you did played the part of the unknowing consumer moron to a T in your review...but it think it was targeted to make people that hate the goliath dell happy...

to be honest i don't know how dell's compare to other manufacturers as far as software goes...i figure they all come with a level of bloatware...how much less i do not know...i don't buy manufacturered computers.

im not trying to say your review was crap at all, it does paint a clear picture of the experience of buying a manufactured computer...but on a site like this...who really cares...didn't we all know that it works like this in the world of manufactured computers?

basically your review seems like it was written on cnet not on hardocp....i guess maybe even hardocp has gotten so big it's getting as bad as cnet...

you aren't writing to your target audience...most of us should know manufactured pc's come with bloatware...all we care about is the hardware...not the os and crap software we already know they throw on their systems...

also, im not a big dell fan....the company is bloated just like it's software....lots of talented people are there, but also lots of morons.
 
It's called journalism... If they didn't do a Dell review the exact same way they did all the other reviews it would not be possible to directly compare them. You (mikemodano9c) sound like you haven't read any of their other complete system reviews.

The fact is that [H] has gotten pretty big, big enough in fact that people who don't build their own boxen come here for the gaming and industry news. These people will benefit from this review, especially in contrast to the other system reviews here.

Kudos to the reviewers for a good read.
 
i agree with the review...it is just incomplete...doesn't explain the it from the side of a competent computer savy individual to go along with the average consumer.

the only person that would gain any knowledge from the review are the hopeless unknowing consumer...is that what this site has become?
 
Dell stopped shipping OS disks with their systems, instead they put the OS on a partitioned section of the HD. I think CTRL F11 brings it up during post :confused:

You can also get the CD's with your purchase, but it's like $10 extra.
 
shoman24v said:
Dell stopped shipping OS disks with their systems, instead they put the OS on a partitioned section of the HD. I think CTRL F11 brings it up during post :confused:

You can also get the CD's with your purchase, but it's like $10 extra.
Click to expand...


they must have changed that in the last year then...they used to all come with cd's...that is pretty damn rediculous they quit sending cd's at all.
 
Lghost said:
It's called journalism... If they didn't do a Dell review the exact same way they did all the other reviews it would not be possible to directly compare them. You (mikemodano9c) sound like you haven't read any of their other complete system reviews.

The fact is that [H] has gotten pretty big, big enough in fact that people who don't build their own boxen come here for the gaming and industry news. These people will benefit from this review, especially in contrast to the other system reviews here.

Kudos to the reviewers for a good read.
Click to expand...


appealing to the masses....like dell....
 
mikemodano9c said:
its funny they ran the first re-install of mce inside of the operating system and bitched they couldn't erase the ntfs partition....lol...of course not...then they booted from the os cd and they magically could....im pretty damn sure that is how it is supposed to work ;)
Click to expand...

I don't know if I was too terse, it seemed a minor point.

Here's what happened: When we finally got the OS disc, we weren't sure, at first, what exactly, we got, so we decided to put it in the computer to see what kind of files were on it, was the disc actually an MCE disc, etc.

Convinced that it was, indeed, an install disc, we then just went ahead and did the reinstallation from the disc. We don't normally do that in our own personal computer use - and quite frankly it took us by surprise that you couldn't delete that partition.

But that's not why we mentioned that you couldn't delete the partition. We decided to go ahead with the reinstallation anyway - when we did we found that the network drivers were not autodetected, and we didn't have a driver CD Rom that came with the machine. You can download drivers from the Dell website, but if your network card isn't configured properly, that's as useful as a Can-Opener-In-A-Can(TM)

It actually turned out fortunate for us that we -didn't- wipe out the partition, and that we found drivers on the hard drive that we could burn to CD-Rom when we did the reinstall properly.

The complaint wasn't the way that Microsoft did things, the complaint was that Microsoft Windows won't detect the network drivers and we weren't provided network drivers on CD, nor were we told to back up that particular driver folder.

We could have skipped this whole process but you'd end up with people asking how you could get drivers off of a partition that had been reformatted.


mikemodano9c said:
the reviewers are wrong about the installation process of the operating system/drivers/apps/software on dell systems...even though the reviewers think there are only a handful of systems dell makes there are thousands of possible configs. they do not use complete images for each model of system. the specific os, apps, drivers for that particular system are downloaded over the corporate network and then they are checked to be accurate for that particular config by a proprietary dell software program/s.
Click to expand...

This is possible - we don't have clairvoyance when it comes to Dell's factory practices. We thought that this was the most likely scenario, however, based on the fact that they've already got a disc-image restore solution on the drive in a hidden partition, and the fact that the drivers were more than two months out of date. It was an educated guess and we qualified it as an educated guess that fit the evidence.

Even so, the main point was that Dell's computer was not tested properly, and it left the factory with major problems that were unaddressed. Though it would be nice to think that every computer is tested and configured, that might not be possible with Dell's volume. However, a random sampling of computers off the factory assembly line would have revealed these problems.

mikemodano9c said:
sounds like a person that builds their own custom boxes w/o knowing the process it takes to ship that many damn systems and still resemble some sort of configurability...it isn't easy...and it takes a lot of work. the people that help develop these systems for the most part really are talented and it takes a lot of work to test so many different configurations...and let me tell you most of every possible configuration is tested...so they can crap on dell, etc...but time really does go into the process. im not saying i wouldnt do some things differently, but it's hard being no.1 and shipping that volume...
Click to expand...

I don't think the problem was volume related. Somewhere down the line, someone at Dell decided to put all those additional programs on the system. These problems caused system stability issues and it seems like our computer would not be particularly unique among the computers Dell sells in that respect. Dell's volume is not an excuse - Dell isn't the only large OEM out there.
 
im just saying to do a local installion of windows with an xp cd if you want to delete the primary partition (or any others on the hd) you shouldn't start the installation from within windows...you would just boot from the cd so you can delete any existing partitions. network connectivity doesn't seem it would be necessary using a cd doing a local installation. this is just the way it's always be done...nothing particular to this being a dell system or anything new when it comes to a windows installation. if you need network connectivity to use an internet connection to access the drivers on dell's site, you should know that ahead of time and do that before you delete your partition and re-install windows....of course any knowledgeable user would realize windows will not have the necessary drivers for the network and most other hardware components by default.

the assumption they create a disk image of one system in a model line or all different possible configurations in a model line and just place that image on the system is a little "out there"...the image would have to incorporate every possible driver for all the possible configurations in a model line. if they did do things that way that would leave a ton of unused drivers/hardware specific apps on the system...now that would be some bloatware for you...i was just pointing out the operating system/drivers/hardware specific software is in fact tied to every exact hardware config.

the sdr file located on the root c:\ is a text file that incorporates all the hardware/software information to be on every specific configuration...with that one text file and access to the corporate download servers you can re-download/transfer all files to that specific machine again....just to give you a small idea of the process.

you are correct dell isn't the only major oem that ships in volume, but even their configurability exceeds most others in many cases. the ability to add/remove specifc software and hardware tied to each model is what is supposed to set dell apart...my only point is that that level of configurability on that scale is what complicates things for a company that ships at that volume. im not shouting the praises of dell really, they definately could improve upon their process...the amount of useless software they ship with systems is too high, and it seems from the review they are going backwards by not shipping installation cd's with their systems like they used to.
 
ty so much for that review. it made me feel so much better about how i have to deal with dell's junk and their tech support at least once a week. job security tho :D

i got a good laugh several times
 
Spudsdude said:
Saving $1 to not include the install disks is retarded.
Click to expand...

Spread that over 200,000 - 300,000 machines and tell your investors its retarded. Margins are slimmer and slimmer in the tech industry, lot of this stuff is done out of necessity. What's on the other end? Layoffs and more cutbacks... so the product manager in me understands. Doesn't get much more straightforward than that.

However, as a consumer, I do agree that it is somewhat mentally challenged.

Last time I checked Brian, San Jose was in Silicon Valley, not Silicon Gulch.
 
mikemodano9c said:
chris morley...

most of the corporate customers of dell probably know a thing or two about computers...

but yes, the individual home user...not so much. i read through your review and i agree with some things (the support is horrible)...and the system didn't come with the cd's it should have (might have had something to do with the os being mce 2005). i understand you wrote your review from the perspective of an unknowledgeable consumer...but take this into light...

if you don't know the first thing about computers is it dell's fault? like that shiny mousepad stuff...ya it's stupid to ship one that won't work well with an optical mouse....but who cares? anyone with an iq over 50 would realize that...
Click to expand...

My father was born dyslexic before dyslexia was diagnosed and was a high school drop-out. He got a high school equivalency while he was stationed in Germany in the tense cold-war period during the 1960s, then served in Vietnam as a forward observer.

He left the army as a First Sergeant. He came home and not only went to college for a degree in Education he then put himself to get an M.A. in Education plus 60 additional graduate credits. He is quite simply a very smart, very brilliant man who leaves me alot to live up to.

We both got our first "real" computers with graphical OSes in 1996 - he's been using computers as long as I have.

To this day, he still uses floppy disks and still does not know how to format them. I don't think he would know why the optical mouse wouldn't work.

Is it Dell's fault that a person wouldn't know why their optical mouse wouldn't work on a shiny mousepad? No.

Should Dell know that an optical mouse wouldn't work with a shiny mousepad? Yes.

mikemodano9c said:
i do agree you did played the part of the unknowing consumer moron to a T in your review...but it think it was targeted to make people that hate the goliath dell happy...
Click to expand...

I honestly wanted to like this computer. I don't know how else I can convince you of that but if anything, we wanted this product to do well.

First, we want all products to do well in our reviews. This is just simple logic - if a computer does well, it means that consumers are satisfied. We would love every computer we review to get a 10.

Secondly, the [H]ard|Bunker is in Austin, Texas which is where Senior Editor Chris Morely and I make our homes. This is a city that has a very large number of Dell workers, designers, programmers - Dell is one of the companies that keeps the Austin economy afloat, and we're not going to needlessly bash Dell because we know that these reviews are read by thousands of people and what we say can have a large impact on people's lives.

Because what we say carries such weight, we're not going to mess around with our responsibility to the truth and to our readers for any reason. That means we don’t “target” our reviews to the bias of the reader.

As Eric Raymond once told me when he was speaking at NJIT, the things you learn the most from in your life are not the things that confirm your prejudices.

If we only told you stuff you already knew or thought you wanted to hear, what, exactly, would be the point of having a review in the first place? Bias and edification simply don’t work together well – and the journalist’s job, at it’s most basic, is to tell true stuff the reader didn’t know.

The [H] Consumer branch of [H]ard|OCP is still young and growing. If you're not convinced yet, we ask you give us the benefit of the doubt as we continue to build our journalistic reputations and strive for fairness in every review we write.

mikemodano9c said:
to be honest i don't know how dell's compare to other manufacturers as far as software goes...i figure they all come with a level of bloatware...how much less i do not know...i don't buy manufacturered computers.

im not trying to say your review was crap at all, it does paint a clear picture of the experience of buying a manufactured computer...but on a site like this...who really cares...didn't we all know that it works like this in the world of manufactured computers?
Click to expand...

There are a number of manufactured computers which don't have bloatware. It is true that we've yet to review offerings from every computer manufacturer out there, but our experience with Dell was certainly not typical for an OEM build.

We hope you keep reading our system reviews for more information on OEM systems. We strive to inform.

mikemodano9c said:
basically your review seems like it was written on cnet not on hardocp....i guess maybe even hardocp has gotten so big it's getting as bad as cnet...

you aren't writing to your target audience...most of us should know manufactured pc's come with bloatware...all we care about is the hardware...not the os and crap software we already know they throw on their systems...
Click to expand...

The [H]Consumer program was designed to expand the target audience to those who might consider OEM systems. These are most likely going to be power users and novices. Soon, [H]Consumer and [H]Enthusiast will be separate sections on the site, which may be more to your liking.

Not every article [H] publishes will appeal to all people - that said, we hope that you enjoyed this review.
 
Before reading the review, I KNEW you guys were going to have major issues with the software. This, unfortunately, is not just an issue with Dell (HP systems are even WORSE), but all major computer manufacturers. Dell's move to providing software on the HD as opposed to physical media is very disappointing, but not surprising.

I remember the old days when systems like Packard Bell and Acer came with completely empty HD's and you were given all your software to install yourself. Sure, this could prove somewhat of a problem for the complete airhead who actually looked for the "any" key. However, you were given instructions on how to do so and the installation was fairly simple, even for the novice computer user.

It's sad to think how many people own a Dell and have NEVER come even close to experiencing the true performance of their system because its simply caked with garbage. You guys were awfully nice calling it "pre-installed software" throughout the review. But most of it is just pure garbage that either A) doesn't work well enough to be useful or B) performs functions Windows ALREADY DOES BY ITSELF.

Excellent review.
 
mikemodano9c said:
im just saying to do a local installion of windows with an xp cd if you want to delete the primary partition (or any others on the hd) you shouldn't start the installation from within windows...you would just boot from the cd so you can delete any existing partitions.
Click to expand...

Duly noted.

mikemodano9c said:
network connectivity doesn't seem it would be necessary using a cd doing a local installation.
Click to expand...

I'm saying that we had problems with incorrectly configured network drivers after the local installation of windows was complete. Meaning we couldn't get onto the internet to download the drivers.

mikemodano9c said:
if you need network connectivity to use an internet connection to access the drivers on dell's site, you should know that ahead of time and do that before you delete your partition and re-install windows....of course any knowledgeable user would realize windows will not have the necessary drivers for the network and most other hardware components by default.
Click to expand...

Windows autodetects quite a bit of hardware these days, including most network cards and on-motherboard solutions. If Dell uses a network card that is not autodetected by windows, (or indeed, any hardware that isn't autodetected by Windows) they should consider it a priority to include the drivers on a CD.

Of course, one of the main complaints was that we were, indeed, supposed to receive a disc with the drivers on them. In this case, you wouldn't be able to get back up and running with just the OS disc - if Windows had autodetected the network drivers, you would have been able to download the rest of the drivers from Dell and other companies' websites. The driver disc we never received is crucial because you can't rely on Windows autodetection.
 
tazdevl said:
Last time I checked Brian, San Jose was in Silicon Valley, not Silicon Gulch.
Click to expand...

Can someone get the mayor of San Jose on the phone? We're Texas. We should have "Gulch." Hell, we're chock full of "Gulch"es.
 
im not trying to bust anyone's balls here...

i just thought the review focused on the bad things and overshadowed the high points...the overall rating of some things like stability a 2 of 10 is disturbing when it was just caused by packaged software and had nothing to do with the hardware of the system. i understand you are reviewing a complete package oem system. focusing on the crappy tech support experience just seems like it is geared towards people that would require such "assistance"...it just doesn't seem like a hardocp article to me...

i don't think anyone that knows even a small amount about computer systems would tell you that dell's tech support isn't horrible and that much of it has been outsourced. i did call one time for the warranty info on a laptop a friend had purchased after she accidentally destroyed it by falling on it (lol)...i gave them the service tag and they didn't even get the system right... :rolleyes:

i think it is a good idea to split the site into an advanced section and a novice section in the future. this article seems tailored to more of a novice audience, which i am not used to seeing from hardocp since i started reading reviews/articles here from its inception.

a true hardocp article would more focus on hardware quality for the price, performance, maybe see if the clock generator on the motherboard would allow fsb adjustments...not re-state what i have read at other sites...

the true enthusiast, which i believe this site was founded to cater to could care less about bloatware and tech support calls...this isn't the first review i have read about a dell system coming with a bunch of useless software that hurts performance and about their horrible tech support...

i always thought hardocp was about striving to be different (and from the article you wrote about the way you want to review oem systems i would say that is what you were going for as well). this review i can't say was different from any i would read on any hardware site...there is no way you can say it was geared towards an advanced user.
 
Brian Boyko said:
Duly noted.



I'm saying that we had problems with incorrectly configured network drivers after the local installation of windows was complete. Meaning we couldn't get onto the internet to download the drivers.



Windows autodetects quite a bit of hardware these days, including most network cards and on-motherboard solutions. If Dell uses a network card that is not autodetected by windows, (or indeed, any hardware that isn't autodetected by Windows) they should consider it a priority to include the drivers on a CD.

Of course, one of the main complaints was that we were, indeed, supposed to receive a disc with the drivers on them. In this case, you wouldn't be able to get back up and running with just the OS disc - if Windows had autodetected the network drivers, you would have been able to download the rest of the drivers from Dell and other companies' websites. The driver disc we never received is crucial because you can't rely on Windows autodetection.
Click to expand...


i can fairly say that 99% of the time windows will not have native drivers for any newer hardware component...whether it be a network card solution in a newer dell pc, a hp pc, a nic you buy off the shelf at a store, video card, etc. etc...

believing, expecting, or desiring windows to have a native driver for a network card in a new oem pc is not only a stretch...it is...incorrect to put it simply. how many gigabit ethernet adapters does windows xp support natively? i would venture to say....not many :)
 
i used to work doing contracts at dell...there are a couple of things i would like to point out...
Click to expand...

the fact the system was shipped with windows mce instead of windows xp probably was the reason no os/application/driver cd's were shipped with the system in the first place...even though they should have. every system is supposed to be shipped with these cd's by default.
Click to expand...




We were told by Dell specifically that they would send out a drivers disk and an applications disk. Which they did not. When we called to inquire about this, they said it was a mistake, and to call back to request them.

yes the bloatware is horrible, if there was a good deal on a dell system i would buy it then just format it and use the cd that should come with the computer...
Click to expand...



The CD that took us three phone calls and one unfulfilled commitment to obtain. Furthermore, why would you settle for doing the job that Dell should have done to begin with? Certianly 90% of Dell’s consumer customers do not have the required knowledge to do this.

its funny they ran the first re-install of mce inside of the operating system and bitched they couldn't erase the ntfs partition....lol...of course not...then they booted from the os cd and they magically could....im pretty damn sure that is how it is supposed to work
Click to expand...



That part may have been a bit confusing, now that I have gone back and reread it. I was there for the booting up of the MCE disk. We could not delete the NTFS partition when we booted from the MCE disk, we were told it was protected.

the tech support people are clowns...enuff said
Click to expand...

the reviewers are wrong about the installation process of the operating system/drivers/apps/software on dell systems...even though the reviewers think there are only a handful of systems dell makes there are thousands of possible configs. they do not use complete images for each model of system. the specific os, apps, drivers for that particular system are downloaded over the corporate network and then they are checked to be accurate for that particular config by a proprietary dell software program/s. so at least on the operating/drivers side only the things that need to be installed are...of course they bundle a bunch of bloatware for the cash. every time the software is downloaded on a dell system it is checked three times for viruses, etc to make sure it is clean...they don't want viruses/worms in their network anyway.
Click to expand...




Actually, we are able to get a drivers disk from other OEMs who provide thousands of different configurations, why should Dell be any different? I am very familiar with how a company can build a single ghost image for certain platforms (usually based on the motherboard and or chipset) and still be able to service many different configurations.

being as i have helped develop some dell machines i would have to say the hardware for the most part and the build quality in most cases is actually pretty good....i don't buy manufactured pc's, but i would buy a good deal on a dell if i found one and format the hard drive and go from there....some of the cases/chassis are pretty cheap...like the early xps systems (stupid door in the front was easy to break off and felt cheap as hell). i think they have improved...and the laptops i think are pretty good quality.
Click to expand...



Again, Dell’s marketing team does not target people like you. If they did they’d just sell systems without an OS and let you do the work. Instead, they are attempting to simplify the experience to the point of no thought or expertise required, which is great. What they have accomplished, instead, is a tangled mess of software that is incompatible with the applications that their target market would wish to run. Games would not install. Games would not initialize. That’s pathetic.

they might have crapped on dell in this review...and some rightfully so, but they think they know a lot about how a large computer manufacturer works...and they really do not....some of their presumptions are pretty funny. sounds like a person that builds their own custom boxes w/o knowing the process it takes to ship that many damn systems and still resemble some sort of configurability...it isn't easy...and it takes a lot of work. the people that help develop these systems for the most part really are talented and it takes a lot of work to test so many different configurations...and let me tell you most of every possible configuration is tested...so they can crap on dell, etc...but time really does go into the process. im not saying i wouldnt do some things differently, but it's hard being no.1 and shipping that volume...
Click to expand...



I appreciate your comments and your background, let me tell you a little about myself. I have nearly 8 years in systems integration. I have worked for the leading company in HD post production and the finest workstation company this side of Apple when it comes to digital content creation. I have worked for a large OEM in Houston that sells and supports 4,000 systems at a time to school districts. I even founded and later sold a modestly successful gaming system company. I have worked in R&D, sales, support, technical marketing, operations and production management, and even purchasing and planning. And even if I didn’t have that experience, and I will admit that I have no experience working for Dell, I can name to you off the top of my head several companies that we have worked with that do a superior job of systems integration than Dell.

anyway...that is my take on things since i actually worked there for a time...
Click to expand...



Truly, our articles are geared towards those who would spend their money with Dell, not those who have worked for them, but your insights are welcome.



chris morley...
Click to expand...

most of the corporate customers of dell probably know a thing or two about computers...

but yes, the individual home user...not so much. i read through your review and i agree with some things (the support is horrible)...and the system didn't come with the cd's it should have (might have had something to do with the os being mce 2005). i understand you wrote your review from the perspective of an unknowledgeable consumer...but take this into light...
Click to expand...




From what we have gathered, Dell has moved away from including OS disks entirely. That may or may not be true, because we have not had more experience with Dell systems, but that isn’t the point. Regardless of what OS it comes with, it took us 3 calls to get the disk we asked for…and even then we didn’t get all of them.

if you don't know the first thing about computers is it dell's fault? like that shiny mousepad stuff...ya it's stupid to ship one that won't work well with an optical mouse....but who cares? anyone with an iq over 50 would realize that...
Click to expand...



I would say that there are probably very intelligent individuals out there who would have no idea why their mouse was jumping around the screen. I think you’re taking for granted the amount of computer knowledge a novice would have – a novice that is clearly targeted by Dell’s marketing.

should dell include a computers for dummies book with its systems?
Click to expand...



They wouldn’t have to if they worked the first time. Like with PC Club.

basically if you don't know squat about computers...that is what those tech support people are for...people need to learn to take it upon themselves to figure out/learn about things...it isn't dell's or any other computer manufacturers responsibility in my opinion.
Click to expand...

I think you’re a bit too forgiving of Dell’s inability to build a quality machine.

i do agree you did played the part of the unknowing consumer moron to a T in your review...but it think it was targeted to make people that hate the goliath dell happy...
Click to expand...



I’m glad you think we make good idiots. I do take exception that you think we may have ‘thrown’ this evaluation to appease our readers. I’m trying to build [H] Consumer’s integrity and respect so that readers outside of the enthusiast community will come to trust our articles so they can make informed and wise decisions regarding their hard earned cash. Frankly I’m a bit insulted by your insinuation.

to be honest i don't know how dell's compare to other manufacturers as far as software goes...i figure they all come with a level of bloatware...how much less i do not know...i don't buy manufacturered computers.
Click to expand...



That’s why I’m here. We at [H[ DO buy lots of manufactured computers. We pointed out that Gateway had a lot of value add software installed and that some treaded near or in the realm of bloatware. But you know what? At least we could install Sims 2 without disabling any of it.

im not trying to say your review was crap at all, it does paint a clear picture of the experience of buying a manufactured computer...but on a site like this...who really cares...didn't we all know that it works like this in the world of manufactured computers?
Click to expand...



I’d like to invite you to take a moment to read a couple of my editorials regarding our Systems Evaluation Program.



http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzU5



http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=ODE4


basically your review seems like it was written on cnet not on hardocp....i guess maybe even hardocp has gotten so big it's getting as bad as cnet...
Click to expand...



I believe we have raised an industry wide bar when it comes to evaluating systems. I don’t think that CNET spends 6,000 words talking about a 360 degree experience, including purchasing anonymously.

you aren't writing to your target audience...most of us should know manufactured pc's come with bloatware...all we care about is the hardware...not the os and crap software we already know they throw on their systems...
Click to expand...



Again, please read the linked articles above.
 
mikemodano9c said:
i can fairly say that 99% of the time windows will not have native drivers for any newer hardware component...whether it be a network card solution in a newer dell pc, a hp pc, a nic you buy off the shelf at a store, video card, etc. etc...

believing, expecting, or desiring windows to have a native driver for a network card in a new oem pc is not only a stretch...it is...incorrect to put it simply. how many gigabit ethernet adapters does windows xp support natively? i would venture to say....not many :)
Click to expand...
I agree with you, however, and you correctly point it out, if Windows doesn't detect the drivers, I guess a user is supposed to know how and where to download drivers on their own? Hmmm, other integrators include drivers disks. If they can do it, so can Dell.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top