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Dear Network & Security...
- Thread starter breadtk
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Freezebyte
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Kinda like why Microsoft basically rules the OS industry, they got the marketshare first
Freezebyte
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*looks at cisco marketshare* Apparently alot of people disagree with you.
S
shade91
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I'm a Cisco fanboi through-and-through. XOR constantly complains that Cisco sucks yet has never backed up his argument with why it sucks and why people are screwing themselves by using Cisco and not Juniper.
YeOldeStonecat
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Juniper is great stuff....and their support is top top TOPS. You get a live person quickly, they're located in the US, I've had them call me back on my cell phone to follow up on a ticket I had with them.
YeOldeStonecat
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http://www.juniper.net/products_and_services/index.html?from=HomePage-Header-to-ProductsServices
I've seen some of the smaller SSG units used by the data center guys upstairs. Personally I've sold/installed/setup/support SA700 dedicated SSL VPN appliances....I run those behind Untangle. Never...ever..had such a solid, easy, reliable, stable VPN appliance. This box replaced an old Cisco PIX they were using..which was very slow and constant headaches/troubleshooting/supporting remote users.
As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.
Cisco routers have more functionality than any of the competition. If all you need it basic IP routing, then Juniper works fine and tends to have more pps than Cisco for the same price. But if you need better support of DLSw, IPX, DEC, etc. then Cisco has all that. You can make Cisco IOS do almost anything you want.
Come on now, your bias is showing.As usual, you don't know what you're talking about.
Don't get so emotional about a product from a company that you start alienating people.
The routers I'm mostly OK with. However, I have to work with their firewalls. The ASAs are fucking goofy. TCP is not that difficult to understand, however cisco seems to go out of their way to make things about hundred times more complex than necessary. On top of that, their logging is misleading unless you are aware of the cisco-isms. Did that packet get blocked because of an ACL or because of some inherent oddness in the OS?
Valnar, I'm trying my hardest but I just don't remember where I've offended you. Which is a shame, because it seems I've really annoyed you and I don't even have the pleasure to remember HOW.
TechieSooner
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This.
However as XOR's point shows below, it's also a downside to Cisco. Needlessly complicated.
One thing I know about Cisco stuff... If you do things their way: IT WORKS.
However sometimes their way is asinine and ridiculously complicated.
Agreed, I own a PIX running 7.2 and they things a little more complicated than they need to be but if I can figure it out, anybody can
He he. Sorry... I'm referring to our heated discussions in the past on the Soapbox about politics. I believe you are on the opposite spectrum of me.
Obama won, so I don't hang out there any more.Also, on the complicated point, if you ask any CCIE, they won't agree. It's the granularity of functionality that gives Cisco the edge where it is needed. Sure, if you don't need a complicated rule base, ACL's, NAT, VPN, etc to do all kinds of things, then a Sonicwall would suffice for most people. But the beauty of Cisco products is it puts you in control of how you want it to work. 'Same kind of mentality as the Linux zealots, I suppose.
OmegaAvenger
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Buy dell equipment then. Thier switches use the exact same CLI interface and have the same commands (I have a 48 port 10/100 3448). At least the one I own does.
So it has VLAN interfaces, L3 routing, OSPF, EIGRP, ACL's, route-maps, VTP, 802.1x, 802.1q, CoS, LLQ QoS, DHCP snooping, SSH management, Rapid PVST, LACP, Etherchannel, tx-queue bandwidth shaping, storm-control, port-security, NTP, Netflow and flow exporting? Those are some of the things I do with my Cisco switches, and mine aren't even that complicated.
Cisco leads in new feature development. Almost everybody else follows.
OmegaAvenger
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Not all of that no. But if cisco is too much money for someone's budget, Dell is the next best thing. I said the CLI was the same, I did not say it had all the features.
But for less that $1000 you can't expect it to either.
http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/pwcnt_3448?c=nl&l=nl&s=edu&cs=
Also the 3448 is a lower end dell switch anyway.
something like this:
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/pwcnt_6224?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
is very close though.
TechieSooner
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What about HP's switches? They've got lifetime warranties that Dell only had a year.
OmegaAvenger
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HP > Dell
most defintely. Dell is just slapping their sticker on someone else's switches. HP has manufactured their own gear for a long time now.
One thing I don't understand about this thread is, why people perceive the Cisco firewalls to be so hard to use? If you don't want to use the CLI, ADSM is so easy that a caveman could do it. We love our ASA's at work.
OmegaAvenger
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I think dell is getting theirs made by Cisco and rebranding them and selling them as entry to mid-level stuff.
The reason I think this is because A.) the only thing dell actually manufactures themselves is the desktops & Servers, even then the parts are made by someone else. Thier laptops are for the most part outsourced to clevo, compal, etc.
and B.) The boot up sequence, the CLI, the help menu of the CLI, and the the same configuration levels (where you have to type in a password to elevate yourself to a higher level like config for interfact configuration) are identical.
Since cisco occupies the mid-level to high-end market. Dell is probably taking the entry-level to mid-level route by getting cisco to make them for them.
Another option would be Adtran's NetVanta line, the CLI is called AOS but it's almost exactly like IOS, their switches/routers have quite a few features and the price point is about 1/2 of what you would spend on a comparitive cisco switch/router. They also offer free training/tests for their entry level certification, lifetime warranty, we have been using them for CPE over the past three years, the price/performance ratio is great.
haha. you mean cisco buys companies that lead in new feature development...
..... and then try to integrate it into all their other products, and market that their stuff does everything under the sun....
.... and then you buy the stuff and realize they are full of crap because there are 10 million caveats to the way you have to deploy their stuff.
and i'm not talking about their routers/switches. they are ok (by no means the greatest thing ever, but they work in most cases). if you've ever used any of the following, you know what i'm talking about.
ASA, CSS, GSS, ACS, IPS, MARS, CSM, AON (dead product), and i'm sure there are others i'm forgetting.
TechieSooner
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Who cares? Point is that Cisco ends up with technology that nobody else collectively has the same features.
Honestly? I'll take some separate technology over the kludge that cisco sometimes puts out.
Given equipment capabilities today, I'd rather have more simple to use devices than 1 mega complicated device. If nothing else, it's easier to get staff for.
Oh, I'm sure arguments can be made that in ultra large data centers any measure to cut power consumption is taken, and that's fair. But everywhere else, it's better to have the equipment that is easy to work on.
YeOldeStonecat
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I thought it was SMC switches, like the SMC Tigers.
OmegaAvenger
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I was only venturing a guess based on the CLI.
Freezebyte
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Yeah, i'd like you to go to my corporate office and tell them that they shouldn't be installing $3,000+ cisco routers in 10,000+ of my clients branchs across the USA because their "crap"
OmegaAvenger
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Yeah, i'd like you to go to my corporate office and tell them that they shouldn't be installing $3,000+ cisco routers in 10,000+ of my clients branchs across the USA because their "crap"
We never said they were bad, we said they were overpriced.
TechieSooner
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OmegaAvenger
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Aaah.. missed that post. Let me rephrase. Most of us haven't said they are bad, just overpriced.
swatbat
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While they are expensive you have a lot of competitors stuff that is in the same range.
On the low end side like yeold and marley were talking about the sonicwall and juniper routers can run about the same if not more.
It really all comes down in what you are looking for though. Cisco makes some great stuff. I do wish they would drop their prices some though on the lower end products.
who cares? I do. Why do I want 20 cisco products that don't do what I want when I can buy 20 various-vendor products that do? Cisco can create a list of features and start marking off all kinds of stuff, until you realize that feature A and feature B can't work at the same time. If you don't know what I'm talking about, then you obviously haven't tried to use even 1/4th of the features you proclaim as "great".
OmegaAvenger
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true, product integration regularly results it the inability to use all the features at once. Sometimes its better not to put all you eggs in one basket. After all, no one wants a single point of failure that will bring everything to a grinding halt.
Look, I don't want to get involved in a flame war.
As someone who works with a very large global infrastructure, I will say this about Cisco. Are their products cheap? Not really. Bug free? Hell no. Every time we test them, there's usually some IOS feature that gets broken in a new release and it sets us back.
Why do I like them then? They've got great support. I found a major IOS bug a few weeks ago and reported it to them. They worked with me to find out why the crash happened. Whenever they contacted the developer for the feature in question, he released beta code to me THAT NIGHT which was compiled for 8 different hardware platforms. I tested it, it worked fine. Then, even though the timeslot for bug fixes was closed for the upcoming version of IOS, they worked hard to force the fix in there and they were successful. They did this because they knew I needed this fix immediately in an official release of IOS in order to implement it in our infrastructure.
Juniper... they just don't match it (yet). I do like their new product offerings though.
As someone who works with a very large global infrastructure, I will say this about Cisco. Are their products cheap? Not really. Bug free? Hell no. Every time we test them, there's usually some IOS feature that gets broken in a new release and it sets us back.
Why do I like them then? They've got great support. I found a major IOS bug a few weeks ago and reported it to them. They worked with me to find out why the crash happened. Whenever they contacted the developer for the feature in question, he released beta code to me THAT NIGHT which was compiled for 8 different hardware platforms. I tested it, it worked fine. Then, even though the timeslot for bug fixes was closed for the upcoming version of IOS, they worked hard to force the fix in there and they were successful. They did this because they knew I needed this fix immediately in an official release of IOS in order to implement it in our infrastructure.
Juniper... they just don't match it (yet). I do like their new product offerings though.
TechieSooner
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Most of the time it's cheaper to buy TWO do it all appliances verses 20 single appliances still.