Datel Suing Microsoft over Max Memory Card Lockout

[HardOCP News]

It didn’t take long for these guys to fire up the lawyers, now did it?

"Microsoft has taken steps to render inoperable the competing Datel memory card for no visible purpose other than to have that market entirely to themselves," Datel attorney Marty Glick explained in a press release. "They accomplished their recent update by making a system change that will not recognize or allow operation of a memory card with greater capacity than their own. We believe that with the power Microsoft enjoys in the market for Xbox accessories this conduct is unlawful."

 

[HaMMerHeD]

Hm. So Microsoft isn't allowed to gate access into its own closed platform?

 

[JUSTJOEL73]

Lol, I wonder if they obtained a license from MS to make Xbox accessories. If not, MS doesn't have to do crap for them and can lock them out if they feel like it. Stupid lawsuit because last I heard MS owns Xbox. If they feel agrieved they should roll back to an earlier firmware and for off line use only. There is a reason manufacturers pay to be licensed to produce official Xbox accessories, what would be the point of that if Joe Blow makes accessories and expects MS to support their stuff without paying to play.

 

[Jakalwarrior]

Sort of like how if you use an unapproved hard drive you can get banned? like how you have to buy their 200% markup drives?

Lesson to be learned here, consoles are all about milking the computer illiterate for the privilege of gaming.

 

[Arcygenical]

Dear god. I can only imagine the outcry on these boards were Apple to have developed the Xbox

ZOMG PLATFORM FASCISM.

 

[darkpaw]

Dear god. I can only imagine the outcry on these boards were Apple to have developed the Xbox

ZOMG PLATFORM FASCISM.

I actually have to agree with this. MS doesn't have to directly support 3rd party accessories, but going out of the way to disable them because of piracy or cheating is just BS just like it is when Apple does it. I'd like a memory unit to take to a friends house with my profile, but no way I'm spending $40 for 512MB of memory. This unit actually sounded like a neat solution with an SD slot as well.

 

[krupted]

but if you start allowing 3rd party devices then it becomes nearly impossible to garuntee a secure platform, doesnt it? security on the xbox is #1 importance, the cheating that happens online is the single most devastating practice to those games....

 

[Conker]

Microsoft wants the profits from memory cards and if they can't create bigger memory cards then no one can which i think is limiting.

 

[John D]

Normally, I wouldn't care, but in this case I hope Microsoft gets their posterior handed to them by Datel. The markup on Microsoft's accessories are just criminal. I got a 20gb hard drive, and my only option is to pay over $1 per GB for a new drive? WTF MS, Get real here. Retail for new SATA 2.5" drives are 50 cents a GB

 

[Azhar]

Microsoft wants the profits from memory cards and if they can't create bigger memory cards then no one can which i think is limiting.

I'm fairly sure Microsoft isn't as childish as you make them out to be. A paycheck here that says Datel failed to get the proper license to manufacture third party Xbox accessories or additions.

They got in trouble with Sony too in the past according to the article.

 

[UrielDagda]

but if you start allowing 3rd party devices then it becomes nearly impossible to garuntee a secure platform, doesnt it? security on the xbox is #1 importance, the cheating that happens online is the single most devastating practice to those games....

Well then you punish the cheaters, not cluster fuck the entire user base. I'm sure there are a certain number that don't even give a crap about playing games online.

It's precisely why I haven't bought a new console since the PS2.. Once they turned them into online devices it just completely destroyed the single player or local multiplayer experience. Instead of a static device that works in a predictable way, you wind up with a device that's being constantly modified by the manufacturer. Then on top of that they can just use updates to disable devices you use that they don't want you to use because they want to force you use their overpriced crap.

I swear, they turned consoles into the hardware equivalence of an MMORPG... Except instead of nerfing classes, they just nerf the shit out of your hardware.

 

[Creamy Goodness]

but if you start allowing 3rd party devices then it becomes nearly impossible to garuntee a secure platform, doesnt it? security on the xbox is #1 importance, the cheating that happens online is the single most devastating practice to those games....

PS3 is pretty secure. Wii also supports SD cards. Microsoft's Xbox division is just run by a bunch of douchebags.

 

[Monkey34]

(( Me watching all you console gamers get your panties in a twist, as I game the day away on my PC ))



But yea......I think MS should be smacked for it.

 

[trooper11]

Well my first question would be, does Datel have a liscense aggreement with MS to make third party devices? Im pretty sure any 3rd party hardware developer has to have that with any console they develop for.

On the one hand, i dont think MS should block all these paths for accessing content on the console. I would love to be able to put game saves, etc on any old usb flash drive or usb external hard drive instead of buying anything proprietary, wether thats from MS or a company like Datel.

On the other hand, I dont think there is anything wrong (legally anyway) with MS locking a users into their system. Wether the piracy concern is real or not, we see all of these companies doing the same thing. Nintendo, Sony, MS, and Apple all are looking to lock you into their system in order for them to tightly control what is done with their hardware and probably to make some money at the same time on accesories.

I dont like MS' choice any more then the way Apple handles things, but I dont see how they could be forced to allow 3rd parties access to their private system.

 

[JUSTJOEL73]

I'm fairly sure Microsoft isn't as childish as you make them out to be. A paycheck here that says Datel failed to get the proper license to manufacture third party Xbox accessories or additions.

They got in trouble with Sony too in the past according to the article.

Yeah, it is really funny how they are suing when it is Datel that is infringing on MS IP and TMs. They said they have sold 50K units, so MS can counter sue to get $ for each unit sold. MS can charge them a license fee greater then the cost of each unit and get punitive damages as well but I don't think MS will go this route. I think they only thing Datel will be able to get is to force a licensing agreement from MS, but they will have to pay big $ for it.

 

[darkpaw]

PS3 is pretty secure. Wii also supports SD cards. Microsoft's Xbox division is just run by a bunch of douchebags.

This, which I think is what shows the only thing MS really cares about is the insane markup on their hardware. The only thing I really like better about my PS3 than my 360 is the ability to use any HDD and while the Wii originally had a lot of restrictions on what you can put on the SD card that has changed.

 

[Netrat33]

Well then you punish the cheaters, not cluster fuck the entire user base. I'm sure there are a certain number that don't even give a crap about playing games online.

It's precisely why I haven't bought a new console since the PS2.. Once they turned them into online devices it just completely destroyed the single player or local multiplayer experience. Instead of a static device that works in a predictable way, you wind up with a device that's being constantly modified by the manufacturer. Then on top of that they can just use updates to disable devices you use that they don't want you to use because they want to force you use their overpriced crap.

I swear, they turned consoles into the hardware equivalence of an MMORPG... Except instead of nerfing classes, they just nerf the shit out of your hardware.

Or. I dunno. don't connect it to the internet and you have your predictable console. They aren't "nerfing" your hardware when they are giving you a whole lot more.

 

[trooper11]

PS3 is pretty secure. Wii also supports SD cards. Microsoft's Xbox division is just run by a bunch of douchebags.

Certainly, Sony has the edge when it comes to storage options over the 360 since you can install your own hard drive, but even Sony doesnt allow you to use an external hard drive to access game saves, dlc, etc. You can make a backup, but you cant use them to access the data directly.

I dont know what the answer is other then vote with your wallet and dont buy into the accessories that you feel are over priced.

I havent bought any other storage becuase of that very reason. I cant afford the price they put on a 120GB drive, but i would definitely buy in if they brought that price down.

 

[TechLarry]

No, the CUSTOMER owns the XBOX.

I agree with this Lawsuit. Microsoft has been using non-competitive locks to prevent competition on XBOX hardware for years now, and it's time for that to end.

If this company wins, it will be a big deal. It may set a precedent others will use against Microsoft. One can only hope so.

Then maybe we will see better quality, better priced wireless controllers, etc... which are currently locked out of the Market by Microsoft.

Sorry. I'm for the little guy on this one.

Lol, I wonder if they obtained a license from MS to make Xbox accessories. If not, MS doesn't have to do crap for them and can lock them out if they feel like it. Stupid lawsuit because last I heard MS owns Xbox. If they feel agrieved they should roll back to an earlier firmware and for off line use only. There is a reason manufacturers pay to be licensed to produce official Xbox accessories, what would be the point of that if Joe Blow makes accessories and expects MS to support their stuff without paying to play.

 

[TechLarry]

Thats another thing I think is antiquated and should be done away with. Microsoft doesn't own the box. The customer does.

Well my first question would be, does Datel have a liscense aggreement with MS to make third party devices? Im pretty sure any 3rd party hardware developer has to have that with any console they develop for.
.

 

[keenan]

Yeah, it is really funny how they are suing when it is Datel that is infringing on MS IP and TMs. They said they have sold 50K units, so MS can counter sue to get $ for each unit sold. MS can charge them a license fee greater then the cost of each unit and get punitive damages as well but I don't think MS will go this route. I think they only thing Datel will be able to get is to force a licensing agreement from MS, but they will have to pay big $ for it.

No they can't, because reverse engineering is explicitly protected and there are likely not any patents involved in this case. Also note that if you want patent protection for your invention you are required to disclose technical details in your public application; your alternative is to keep things secret, but then you have no recourse against reverse engineers - I assume this is what MS has done in this case as there's nothing novel about a memory card that would be patentable, so they would have no leg to stand on in a counter suit.

No licensing agreement is required for Datel to manufacture memory cards, but MS may be allowed to break compatibility, however given that MS has a monopoly on the Xbox360 console they may be required to allow 3rd party interoperability. They don't necessarily have to support it, but if Datel can show that their only intent was to disable their products, I think they have a fairly strong case here, and I hope they win it. Interoperability is good for everyone, and the more support it has in case law the less leverage these huge companies will have to muscle the little guy around like Apple loves to do.

 

[MisterSparkle]

Next you'll only be able to clean it using "Microsoft XBox 360 Sanitized Wipes"

 

[Elledan]

I really fail to understand how people can be gullible enough to buy a $300 console, the $100 20 GB HDD, $100 wireless network adapter and a couple of $40, 512 MB memory cards. Do they enjoy getting ripped off? People were ragging on the PS3 for being so expensive, yet it came with all these things standard and allows one to use any SD card, any 2.5" HDD you can find, many USB devices (card readers, USB sticks, keyboards) and so on.

My feelings on this lawsuit are mixed. On one hand I feel that Datel should be allowed to bring some competition to the XBox 360 ecosystem, at the other hand I can't help but wonder how MSFT got away with such outrageous prices on its accessories for the past years, combined with the failure-prone hardware. It just doesn't make sense.

 

[gibber]

Hm. So Microsoft isn't allowed to gate access into its own closed platform?

How about if they say you can't write programs to run under Windows unless you pay them a license fee? How would that fly?

I swear, I've never seen a "pro-Microsoft" argument that didn't seem ignorant.

 

[gibber]

Regardless if it's LEGAL or not, making products which consumers already bought for the X-box that THEY own stop working is truly an a$$hole-ish thing for Microsoft to have done, and the consumers, at the very least, should have some legal recourse against Microsoft. For instance, a refund of their X-box purchase price, including all the software and accessories they have purchased for it, if they no longer agree to accept Microsoft's policies and/or business practice.

 

[ol1bit]

I hope they sue Microsoft's Ass off!

2 Billion!

It is ridiculous that the DMCA exists. if you reverse engineer it, you should be able to use it.

Fooking big companies are ruling the world anymore with DMCA.

 

[WAKASHIZuMa]

How about if they say you can't write programs to run under Windows unless you pay them a license fee? How would that fly?

I swear, I've never seen a "pro-Microsoft" argument that didn't seem ignorant.

I think you are comparing Apples to Oranges

Windows inherent avdvantage is for the platform being open. If Microsoft were to control it like Xbox 360 it would have never been anywhere successful. Microsoft can try asking for licence fee but that's if they decide to completely make Windows fail and push themselves out of the market; hence it would never happen on the current desktop platform

Consoles are however always been strictly controlled by their manufactures. I think what Microsoft did here is rather stupid and anti-consumer (especially considering the prices these companies charge for official accessories are a big rip off) but there is little doubt that Xbox 360 is a closed platform and hence allowed to perform per Microsoft's desires

And I have to disagree. I've seen far more level headed pro Microsoft arguments than pro Apple ones (who interestingly has a closed hardware platform on their macs and closed software platform on their iPhones)

 

[blackacidevil]

I really fail to understand how people can be gullible enough to buy a $300 console, the $100 20 GB HDD, $100 wireless network adapter and a couple of $40, 512 MB memory cards. Do they enjoy getting ripped off? People were ragging on the PS3 for being so expensive, yet it came with all these things standard and allows one to use any SD card, any 2.5" HDD you can find, many USB devices (card readers, USB sticks, keyboards) and so on.

My feelings on this lawsuit are mixed. On one hand I feel that Datel should be allowed to bring some competition to the XBox 360 ecosystem, at the other hand I can't help but wonder how MSFT got away with such outrageous prices on its accessories for the past years, combined with the failure-prone hardware. It just doesn't make sense.

You just answered your own question. MS can charge whatever they want as long as people are willing to pay for it. If you ran your own business, which customer would you choose? The guy offering $30 for your product, or the one offering $50?

 

[Wumpus]

I think you are comparing Apples to Oranges


Consoles are however always been strictly controlled by their manufactures. I think what Microsoft did here is rather stupid and anti-consumer (especially considering t

You may have heard about this little company called Activision...

Of course, corporate lawyers put enough locks on every console since then.

(( Me watching all you console gamers get your panties in a twist, as I game the day away on my PC ))

Yeah, I just love Tux Racer and Battle for Wesnoth. Wait, you haven't read the EULA have you? MS 0wns your PC as much as it does the XBox.

 

[gibber]

Yeah, I just love Tux Racer and Battle for Wesnoth. Wait, you haven't read the EULA have you? MS 0wns your PC as much as it does the XBox.

Many free games available for Linux are pretty cool, but what's that got to do with the topic - I mean, what is your angle anyway...

On to the 2nd point, my reply to that is: "Shrink Wrap" EULAs are about as binding as a fortune teller's reading of the poop stain on my used toilet paper. Unfortunately, being able to push malicious code to your own customer's consoles is far more effective than a BS worthless EULA....

 

[gibber]

And I have to disagree. I've seen far more level headed pro Microsoft arguments than pro Apple ones (who interestingly has a closed hardware platform on their macs and closed software platform on their iPhones)

Oh ~ well... I wasn't thinking about Microsoft vs Apple. I was thinking about Microsoft is a dasterdly evil greedy unethical giant corporation that screws over it's competition in a hundred illegal ways, yet, still, for some inexplicable reason, this board is infested with (seemingly ignorant?) Microsoft Fanbois.

 

[gibber]

Dangit, where is the EDIT button? I want to consoledate my posts.

I wanted to add, I don't even OWN a 360 and this pisses me off (as do Microsoft's game and accessory prices). It's stupid for a console not to come with 2 controllers?!? Who is not going to want to play with friends? That should be what consoles are all about in the first place, having your buddies over and kicking there ass in a good 1 vs 1 game, saying "next" and seeing who can remain the reigning champ the longest.

 

[Azhar]

Oh ~ well... I wasn't thinking about Microsoft vs Apple. I was thinking about Microsoft is a dasterdly evil greedy unethical giant corporation that screws over it's competition in a hundred illegal ways, yet, still, for some inexplicable reason, this board is infested with (seemingly ignorant?) Microsoft Fanbois.

Textbook definition of pot calling kettle black. Irrational dislike of a company (evil corporation?? seriously??), yet calling some of the guys fanboys.

 

[RogueTrip]

I really hope Datel wins against them. There is no reason for MS to close that off after 4 years of letting it happen. If they were going to do this, they should of done it from the release of the system, yet they let it go on since 2005 and now want to do this. It has no motive other than to be selfish.

After the Hardware Failures, the banning, and now closing the system off from 3rd party, I'm surprised more people have not got off the Xbox's nuts. I haven't bought one, and through all the reading and even seeing my customers 360's RROD during a service call, I won't buy one. You couldn't give one to me (well you could but I'd just sell it back off!).

All the 1st parties like Charging an arm and a leg for there crap, nothing new. Anyone ever see a price change on the PS2 Memory 8MB Card? It's still like $20 something new. Controllers still around $25 new, and this is at the systems end of Product Cycle. When you take out the 3rd party you really are shooting yourself in the leg for sales.

 

[WAKASHIZuMa]

Oh ~ well... I wasn't thinking about Microsoft vs Apple. I was thinking about Microsoft is a dasterdly evil greedy unethical giant corporation that screws over it's competition in a hundred illegal ways, yet, still, for some inexplicable reason, this board is infested with (seemingly ignorant?) Microsoft Fanbois.

You are complaining about fanboys and yet at the same time you are acting almost the same. If you think anyone who happens to enjoy Microsoft products are ignorant then I guess you should be checking out macrumors.com or Appleinsider.com (or Sony Defense Force) instead of other PC forums

What Microsoft is doing in this case is the same as Apple denying Google voice on their iPhone or prohibiting others from installing OSX on their hardware. Is it tasteful? no. But it's their closed platform and they wish to run it the way they like to run their platform. It's their right to do so. Anyone who buys a console and treat it like an open platform then obviosuly doesn't know what they are getting themselves into. I don't like what Microsoft is doing here but that's the nature of a platform being closed by its maker (and hence why I like PC because it provides options and choice)

All of these companies have their own share of mistakes. By the same token anyone who is a fan of Intel processors is also ignorant because Intel has also abused its monopoly over their competition. It doesn't work

PS: I'm surprised you dont write MS as M$

 

[Serpico]

I actually have to agree with this. MS doesn't have to directly support 3rd party accessories, but going out of the way to disable them because of piracy or cheating is just BS just like it is when Apple does it. I'd like a memory unit to take to a friends house with my profile, but no way I'm spending $40 for 512MB of memory. This unit actually sounded like a neat solution with an SD slot as well.

Except that Apple doesn't do this, you can use any part from Newegg or wherever on a Mac, and you aren't locked out of any accessories either. The only real headache is if you have to flash a EFI onto a video card since Macs don't use BIOS.

All that said, it is Microsoft's device and they are well within their rights to control how it is used. Yeah the markup on their hard drives are crap but there isn't much we can do, its their system. I absolutely wish the 360 was as open as the PS3 in terms of BT headsets, BT keyboards, hard drives, etc, but it isn't. Sony made their choice and Microsoft made theirs, simple. Same as how Microsoft has every right to ban consoles with modified firmware. Datal doesn't have much of a leg in court, I'm afraid.

 

[darkpaw]

Same as how Microsoft has every right to ban consoles with modified firmware. Datal doesn't have much of a leg in court, I'm afraid.

There is a difference between modifying the system to bypass access controls and DRM and blocking all 3rd party accessories. I think most of the times attempts to lock out 3rd party add-ons fails when it isn't specifically banned by a provision of the DCMA (i.e. a device designed to bypass copy protection) or in violation of a specific patent.

 

[Serpico]

Oh ~ well... I wasn't thinking about Microsoft vs Apple. I was thinking about Microsoft is a dasterdly evil greedy unethical giant corporation that screws over it's competition in a hundred illegal ways, yet, still, for some inexplicable reason, this board is infested with (seemingly ignorant?) Microsoft Fanbois.

While I won't disagree with the Microsoft Fanboy claim, considering that this place has more people proudly admitting to throwing those ridiculous Windows 7 parties or actually saying in all seriousness "I'm a PC!" or "Windows 7 was my idea!" than any of the other forums I go to, I completely disagree with the rest of your post.

Accept this fact: Every single one of these corporations, Microsoft, Apple, Sony, Nintendo, Intel, ATI, nvidia, you name it, have some business practices that at best are inconvenient, and at worst are openly hostile to the consumer.

They also all have excellent products that IMHO are worth owning. Man up to the fact that no company is perfect, stop being a fanboy for anyone, and things will be much better.

These things are just tools, like a screwdriver or a lawnmower. People on the internet blindly hitching up their wagons to a single company or on the flipside irrationally hating a particular company by spreading untrue FUD in the same way is ridiculous, especially since not one of these companies is innocent. You just take what good they produce and ignore the rest.

 

[PurduEE]

There is a difference between modifying the system to bypass access controls and DRM and blocking all 3rd party accessories. I think most of the times attempts to lock out 3rd party add-ons fails when it isn't specifically banned by a provision of the DCMA (i.e. a device designed to bypass copy protection) or in violation of a specific patent.

Chamberlain v. Skylink will definitely be cited a lot if MS cries DMCA...

http://lwn.net/Articles/48588/

Cliffs: Chamberlain sells a rolling-code garage door opener system and skylink sells add-on openers for use with Chamberlain's system (at a significantly lower cost than Chamberlain's). Sound like a familiar fact pattern?

In this case, Plaintiff sells a GDO [garage door opener] to a homeowner who then utilizes the product to access his or her own garage. As pointed out above, there are no limitations placed on the homeowner who buys the Chamberlain rolling code GDO, regarding which type of replacement or additional transmitter he or she purchases to access the GDO.

 

[kingsack]

They most clearly do Not need a licensing agreement with MS to produce and accesory unless patented technology is being utilized.

Not only should Datel sue them for egregious business interference but there should also be a class action consumer lawsuit in addition for all owners of these devices.