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Creative, chargin for audigy drivers?
- Thread starter zombix
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Shakey_Jake33
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No, they're going to be charging for the Audigy version of ALchemy, the app to 'emulate' EAX in Vista.
well hmm that really sucks, so how is alchemy going to help out my audigy zs i really think its not going to do anything special.
Do x-fi people get it for free or is it just for audigy cards that we'll have to pay for.
And is it a one time fee?
Do x-fi people get it for free or is it just for audigy cards that we'll have to pay for.
And is it a one time fee?
Shakey_Jake33
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The official reason for charging for the Audigy version (and the X-Fi version being free) is because they still make profit on the X-Fi, but not the Audigy.
The attitude seems to be very much that they're doing people a favour, as opposed to fixing what has been broken =/
The attitude seems to be very much that they're doing people a favour, as opposed to fixing what has been broken =/
No, Audigy Cards can perform OpenAL as well. No way in hell Creative should charge for it.
If this is the case, and Creative has said it would, it is absolute BS!
I'd say pat them on the back when they do good but slap them when they don't. This and the X-FI Xtreme Audio proves there are Jerks in high places at Creative Labs. This is sleeze at its best.jester1176
[H]ard|Gawd
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this isn't true. both X-Fi and Audigy cards support OpenAL 1.1.
Yeah, it's a bad move. If it were me, I would have just ignored the Audigy user base rather than charging a fee for extended product support.
To answer the OP's question, you don't need ALchemy if:
1) You don't run Windows Vista
2) You run Vista, though you don't play any DirectSound-based games that feature EAX
3) You run Vista, though you aren't worried about a performance hit when running DirectSound games that feature or do not feature EAX
4) You run Vista, though you only play games that use the OpenAL API
You can say a lot of negative things about Creative - that's for damn sure - but this ball dropped in their lap.
To answer the OP's question, you don't need ALchemy if:
1) You don't run Windows Vista
2) You run Vista, though you don't play any DirectSound-based games that feature EAX
3) You run Vista, though you aren't worried about a performance hit when running DirectSound games that feature or do not feature EAX
4) You run Vista, though you only play games that use the OpenAL API
In reality, they are doing their X-Fi customers a favor with ALchemy. Creative had no choice in Microsoft's decision to pull DS's hardware abstraction layer, and Creative has also invested in OpenAL to ensure the lastingness of the technology. It's possible they could have done more, but it's also quite possible for them to have not done anything to support their products' effective transition to Vista.
You can say a lot of negative things about Creative - that's for damn sure - but this ball dropped in their lap.
Microsoft screwed us too, just another exmple of their BS! LOL!
Creative shouldn't charge for this. Either they sould skip Alchemy, not skip it/ make it FREE and or even make these older drivers Open Source. Since I'm not about to downgrade to Vista, I'm personnally not worried
Creative shouldn't charge for this. Either they sould skip Alchemy, not skip it/ make it FREE and or even make these older drivers Open Source. Since I'm not about to downgrade to Vista, I'm personnally not worried
SentToSchool
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If they do charge, you know where to go.
If they do charge, you know where to go.
It will not be to Vista LOL!
If they do charge, you know where to go.
True enough, You can see all the pissed people that feel Creative owes this too them and see it as nothing more then a driver patch. They will get minimal returns charging for this wrapper.
link?
Blame MS. They're the ones that broke it.
quite the contrary: A lot of us will pay for it. It fixes something that microsoft broke. Creative released the Audigy with ~no~ knowledge that MS would yank the DS layer. they have no obligation to repair an EOL product, so this fix saves me a great deal of money.
Considering their main customer base are Audigy users and they still sell the products. The card do still have OpenAL support in Vista I guess. If you want to pay for it knock yourself out. This is how they treat their customers? There is info that states CL had a oppurtunity to work with MS to Develop the audio for Vista. Atleast the stack anyway. How long has Vista been in development 5 years? -Did they miss the memo? This is their fault building thier technologies on sombody else's code. What type of support will X-fi users get when the next product is released? You are right to some extent as some will pay for it alot will not.
Link!
So if its EOL why not make it Open Source? Why keep it locked down like Fort Knox?
InorganicMatter
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So what does this do, somehow bridge EAX to OpenAL so that all the EAX games will work again?
Prior to Vista, in XP for instance EAX games used the Direct sound API for EAX effects. The Audio stack has been revamped in Vista and no longer contains the Direct sound HAL so these older games cannot communicate with the card as they did previously. Vista can use OpenAL for EAX so newer games that use OpenAL are fine. For older games the ALchemy wrapper "wraps" the direct sound calls from the game to OpenAL calls that the card understand and can render EAX effects again. That is the short and fast version but explains the main idea of why you need ALchemy for older games that use Directsound. Not a bridge but a wrapper. -along the same idea...
That's ridiculous. If the OS post-Vista drops DirectX altogether (alienating graphics cards and input devices), would it be the fault of NVIDIA, AMD, S3, Logitech and others that some of their products no longer serve their full purpose?
I'd also like to see a link that confirms that Creative had the opportunity to work with Microsoft, and possibly when it was indicated to Creative that the HAL would be removed in Vista.
The first time the public heard about this change, to my knowledge, was about six months prior to Vista's release. I truly wouldn't be surprised if Creative had found out not much sooner given how Microsoft tends to work these things.
So what does this do, somehow bridge EAX to OpenAL so that all the EAX games will work again?
Alchemy changes/converts EAX + DS3D calls to OpenAL so the Sound card can process it in Hardware as it would any OpenAL Game. OpenAL is performed on the Card in Hardware and not much to do with VISTA at all. In fact, the card performs OpenAL in spite of vista LOL! MS moved the whole Audio stack to User Mode and out of Kernel Mode.
MS broke it but I stand by what I said about Creative.Just like everything with microcrap...they break it let others fix it...if it works they will take all the credit...if not big deal.
But they also broke the video side and no one is paying for that except in low frame rates. BUT no one is saying MS is a crap company for not doing what they were supposed to do with the way DX10 handled deletes...they just didn't do a damn thing. TYPICAL
but I can't agree with creative charging for a fix...they should just say no more for audigy...like most of the 6 mo old hardware out there that have no vista drivers so they can force customers to upgrade...now why aren't you all bitching about that big time?????
IT TRUE microshaft sucks big time and always will the VISTA drm special is a damn joke and anything they do to it will be even worse.
But they also broke the video side and no one is paying for that except in low frame rates. BUT no one is saying MS is a crap company for not doing what they were supposed to do with the way DX10 handled deletes...they just didn't do a damn thing. TYPICAL
but I can't agree with creative charging for a fix...they should just say no more for audigy...like most of the 6 mo old hardware out there that have no vista drivers so they can force customers to upgrade...now why aren't you all bitching about that big time?????
IT TRUE microshaft sucks big time and always will the VISTA drm special is a damn joke and anything they do to it will be even worse.
they still sell them yes, but they also sell the SB16 if you look hard enough: they're both still EOL for being a primary production card.
So what if they worked with MS? That doesn't mean they could convince Microsoft to not yank the DS layer, which is what their old cards were really built on.
Just be glad that you have the option: Most places won't give you that. (cough HP cough). It'd be nice if it was free, but it's costing them a great deal to make, so I'm just happy they're making it at ~all~.
I'm a big OSS fan, but expecting everyone to OSS their drivers for a proprietary piece of hardware is relatively crazy. A LOT of EAX is a software layer. You don't want people stealing that stuff.
EXACTLY. It's an option. You don't want it? Don't pay for it. Personally, I'd rather have the option.
Relatively but not practically crazy LOL! Patents run out after how long for Drug companies?
Again, it will not affect me either way because I'm not using the DRM ladened Vista anyway.
I'd rather see them (CL) either NOT support it rather than Charge for it. Unless that charge is very small. I thought I made that clear. There's nothing worth stealing when it comes to Audigy xxx
It like Intel giving VIA the right to CU-mine Processors, sheesh! Oh great the return of the P3 will be a big hit To you and that other guy, I say BS! The last Audigys are not that frackin' old. X-FI isn't that old. X-FI turns 2 years old this month. We're not talking about 5 year sound cards here. Sure they have one year warranties. May last Audigy 4 has a 2006 build date LOL!
I blamed Vista and gave links to back it up. The other guy didn't get it then either. IMHO, Vista is POS and the O and the S doesn't stand for Operating System either hehehe! At least you say 6 months and not 6 years.
QFT!
This isn't a Microsoft debate per se, but you're wrong.
Why did Microsoft eliminate the HAL? Primarily, they did so because Vista could not enforce DRM on devices that talk through the HAL, which would reduce whatever amount of money they're being given by whatever organizations (you and I both know this is happening) and would impede the usefulness of copy-protected material (BD and HD-DVD and so on). It wasn't about targeting Creative or targeting developers who're eying the PC as the primary development platform. They could have very well destroyed the ability for OpenAL and OpenGL to function in Vista (this was speculated long ago), but they didn't. You really want to hurt Creative? You dropkick OpenAL, and you'd have put Creative Labs into a panicked frenzy.
This isn't about the 360. In fact, look at the current Games for Windows campaign, and you'll see that they aren't really trying to move people into the 360. They want Vista to be more attractive as a gaming platform than XP which, if you didn't know what DirectX was, you wouldn't have known that XP is just as solid a gaming platform as Vista. It's a dual market for them, and they get taken care of at both ends.
If the Games for Windows campaign's primary message was "No, no - don't buy this - you want the 360 version instead!", you might have a point. But it isn't, and you don't.
Why did Microsoft eliminate the HAL? Primarily, they did so because Vista could not enforce DRM on devices that talk through the HAL, which would reduce whatever amount of money they're being given by whatever organizations (you and I both know this is happening) and would impede the usefulness of copy-protected material (BD and HD-DVD and so on). It wasn't about targeting Creative or targeting developers who're eying the PC as the primary development platform. They could have very well destroyed the ability for OpenAL and OpenGL to function in Vista (this was speculated long ago), but they didn't. You really want to hurt Creative? You dropkick OpenAL, and you'd have put Creative Labs into a panicked frenzy.
This isn't about the 360. In fact, look at the current Games for Windows campaign, and you'll see that they aren't really trying to move people into the 360. They want Vista to be more attractive as a gaming platform than XP which, if you didn't know what DirectX was, you wouldn't have known that XP is just as solid a gaming platform as Vista. It's a dual market for them, and they get taken care of at both ends.
If the Games for Windows campaign's primary message was "No, no - don't buy this - you want the 360 version instead!", you might have a point. But it isn't, and you don't.
Relatively but not practically crazy LOL! Patents run out after how long for Drug companies?
Again, it will not affect me either way because I'm not using the DRM ladened Vista anyway.
I'd rather see them (CL) either NOT support it rather than Charge for it. Unless that charge is very small. I thought I made that clear. There's nothing worth stealing when it comes to Audigy xxx
To you and that other guy, I say BS! The last Audigys are not that frackin' old. X-FI isn't that old. X-FI turns 2 years old this month. We're not talking about 5 year sound cards here. Sure they have one year warranties. May last Audigy 4 has a 2006 build date LOL!
Honestly, patents ~shouldn't~ run out for drug companies, imo. You make it; it's yours.
As for EAX: their methods are still used elsewhere. You never want to turn over your creation to someone who may use it for their own profit as a corporation.
The device may be made still, but that doesn't change that it's EOL: They're not making new models, they're just making the old models, for the remainder of that old market.
You'd rather NOT have the option to use your card to the fullest? Why? What does that option cost you? What does having choices cost you?
He has a point thought. Look at Halo 2, long promised to PC users. Finally ships and then without warning right there on the BOX, "Windows Vista Only". We all know that Halo 2 can run on a mid ranged XP rig. Then Lost Planet and other XBox games that are ported to PC will ship as Vista/DirectX 10 only. Even those developed for DirectX 9.
I do agree that MS could have crippled stuff more if they wanted to, but I think that'd cause them more grief than they're already getting. Please don't forget I was one of the first ones here to bring up DRM as it applied to Vista.
No, they shouldn't run out, but should be adjusted or at least limited but still Opened. If it is EOL, Obsolete, there isn't much harm that could be done. Maybe NOT all of the drivers and software but JUST ALCHEMY in this case. OpenAL is an Open stardard or so says OpenAL.org. If that's case then we're NOT talking about stealing.
I'm NOT moving to Vista anytime soon and it has more to do with MS, than Creative. Creative and MS will have to kill WinXP support and the OS repectively before I give in. Then I'll have to learn Linux better LOL!
no, we're not, but THEIR implementation of OpenAL IS their own, and no one else's. Plus, ALchemy isn't openAL, it's DS3D -> OpenAL. It's their implementation of a software abstraction layer between two different protocols, and that is completely within the realm of corporate intellectual property.
I agree with you with vista: I'll upgrade when I'm dead, but I'd rather have options than not.
You're right, but the point is that they aren't damaging the PC as a platform, they're just making it so that they obsolete XP is quickly as possible. That's what Games for Windows is, in a nutshell, but it's also there to help drive sales of PC games to some degree, and Windows LIVE is aimed at same target.
Dewd, I know what the hell Alchemy is LOL! It's DS3D + EAX --->OpenAL has you put it. If it were Open you get more goodies like YouP_Pax and etc.... There are things Creative can still keep to itself and becomes even more popular. I'm NOT suggesting the give away the Farm here.
More power to those who do choose VIsta and none OpenAL cards are well.
Of course you're right too and I agree they're not damaging but also they're NOT helping either. Sure they're doing there best speed up WinXP's demise and IMHO, the large buyers will change some of this and delay that move. Some of them did this for Win2K as well, remember? Then SP2 and etc.. then wa-la! Yup, you're right about Windows Live as well. But I still feel AMD is missing sales of Halo2 and the other games but trying to rush folks to Vista. This is cool for New DX-10 games but kind of bogus for DX-9 based games.