Core gamers no longer matter - go casual or GTFO

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Plague_Injected

Supreme [H]ardness
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Seriously...when was the last time a big-name game appealed to and was designed for core gamers?

Everything is being dumbed down (sorry, being made "more accessible" and being "streamlined") in order to maximise sales. Established franchises are changed to increase audiences...but the changes are never for the better. Existing fanbases are snubbed because some suit says they aren't a big enough number.

I am all for games evolving, but the changes that are made to subsequent titles in franchises are never for the better. Changes are assessed solely on what an existing fan can and cannot tolerate.

The only use for core gamers is in generating a playerbase and some hype for a new IP which will be franchised and dumbed down at the first sign of mass-exposure. Case in point - Dark Souls. This game's cult status amongst core gamers was propelled by the almost-underground word-of-mouth hype of its predecessor Demon's Souls. It was the shining example of a game being designed for serious gamers. Now Dark Souls II will be a "Souls" game in name only, with its creator sidelined so it can go in a new direction. The existing fanbase doesn't matter. Suits will easily forego every single one of them if it brings in a new, bigger customer base...one that is more easily impressed and is more easily parted with $$$.

I am seriously considering giving up gaming. There is almost nothing here for me anymore. When Microsoft thought having Usher at a gaming convention show was a great idea, it really hit home that people like myself are no longer the target audience, and perhaps not even relevant anymore. The revelations about how Dark Souls II is being developed have really been the last straw. The only games that have any kind of learning curve seem to be indie games with graphics from 20+ years ago. I have nothing against these games, but I also have no real interest in sifting through low-budget, retro games to find a satisfying gaming experience when they are all mostly based on very old ideas and don't break any real new ground (Super Meat Boy and Hotline Miami both come to mind).

Games should be evolving with the technology, but they simply are not. It's a complete race to the bottom.
 
Welcome to the club. The coffee is by the back door. We're out of creamer though.
 
I don't see that at all. I wouldn't say games are becoming harder, but the concept of core and casual is elitist crap created by people who have been gaming for a long time and think developers owe them something.
 
Plague_Injected said:
Seriously...when was the last time a big-name game appealed to and was designed for core gamers?

Everything is being dumbed down (sorry, being made "more accessible" and being "streamlined") in order to maximise sales. Established franchises are changed to increase audiences...but the changes are never for the better. Existing fanbases are snubbed because some suit says they aren't a big enough number.

I am all for games evolving, but the changes that are made to subsequent titles in franchises are never for the better. Changes are assessed solely on what an existing fan can and cannot tolerate.

The only use for core gamers is in generating a playerbase and some hype for a new IP which will be franchised and dumbed down at the first sign of mass-exposure. Case in point - Dark Souls. This game's cult status amongst core gamers was propelled by the almost-underground word-of-mouth hype of its predecessor Demon's Souls. It was the shining example of a game being designed for serious gamers. Now Dark Souls II will be a "Souls" game in name only, with its creator sidelined so it can go in a new direction. The existing fanbase doesn't matter. Suits will easily forego every single one of them if it brings in a new, bigger customer base...one that is more easily impressed and is more easily parted with $$$.

I am seriously considering giving up gaming. There is almost nothing here for me anymore. When Microsoft thought having Usher at a gaming convention show was a great idea, it really hit home that people like myself are no longer the target audience, and perhaps not even relevant anymore. The revelations about how Dark Souls II is being developed have really been the last straw. The only games that have any kind of learning curve seem to be indie games with graphics from 20+ years ago. I have nothing against these games, but I also have no real interest in sifting through low-budget, retro games to find a satisfying gaming experience when they are all mostly based on very old ideas and don't break any real new ground (Super Meat Boy and Hotline Miami both come to mind).

Games should be evolving with the technology, but they simply are not. It's a complete race to the bottom.
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First of all, what do you mean by "core gamers",
 
Seems like every game blows ass now. I only play BF3. Dota 2 is also a very good game, but everything that comes out is just... ugh.


Plague_Injected said:
Games should be evolving with the technology, but they simply are not. It's a complete race to the bottom.
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That is because technology isn't evolving, like it or not, consoles are the main market. Period. You won't see much else till xbox 720 and PS4. Hell, I wouldn't mind picking those up and just switching over. If you think the focus on consoles right now is heavy... just wait till those hit the shelves. Even Valve is making a console-esque machine.
 
MelonSplitter said:
First of all, what do you mean by "core gamers",
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This.

Compared to other entertainment media gaming is still a new form, and who the "core" audience is is still evolving.

I suspect that as with those other forms that core will be "Where ever the money is" which is clearly where the hipstergamers (who were gaming before it was cool) would call "casuals".

I'm not too worried to be honest, we often lament TV for being poisoned by reality TV crap, but shows like Breaking Bad still manage to exist and thrive. Crappy movies about fat bridesmaids or whatever exist, but so does the Avengers.

Gaming will be the same, we just have to learn to accept that gaming has passed the point where every game is made for "us" and cast a wider net. The diamonds are still out there.
 
Yes, how terrible it is they make games for people other than you, and that it may be necessary to look beyond EA and Activision to find something that suits you.

If only there were some place you could pose questions to like-minded people to help seek out games that may be enjoyable based on your own preferences.
 
I gotta side with some of the others who say get over it ... core gamers is a little subjective and a lot elitist ... there is also an element of one man's feast is another man's famine ... I think there are some gems out there for "core gamers" but it does depend on your genre of choice

Shooters are definitely more mainstream now ... c'est la vie ... if you get a wider audience interested in a product it will try and become accessible for the audience ... graphical system killers are on the decline simply because they want to reach the widest audience base ... single player is on the decline because of the large number of people who want multiplayer ... hard to fault companies for trying to make a product that will sell

Strategy games are doing well with independent studios ... depending on the game styles you like

RPGs have some gems and some of the KS projects like "Project Oblivion" should be nice additions to the genre

ARPGS are doing well with TL2 and PoE ... I am also greatly looking forward to Grim Dawn

I think if you expand your focus to the smaller independent studios and KS you will find there is still plenty of gaming goodness out there ... at least by my measure ;)
 
Sure the AAA titles are appealing to the masses but we have also, over the last year in particular have seen the massive amount of interest in classic and innovative games through kickstarter.

Yes, their budgets are not as large, so the production values will never be as strong but it's the core gaming experience that is most critical.

It's hard not to be cynical and jaded in today's gaming climate, but I've had glimmers of hope seeing many of the projects being developed by smaller indie studios.
 
mr_zen256 said:
Sure the AAA titles are appealing to the masses but we have also, over the last year in particular we have seen the massive amount of interest in classic and innovative games through kickstarter.

Yes, their budgets are not as large, so the production values will never be as strong but it's the core gaming experience that is most critical.

It's hard not to be cynical and jaded in today's gaming climate, but I've had glimmers of hope seeing many of the projects being developed by smaller indie studios.
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I was going to say this too. Its true that mainstream games these days are all trying to be casual and accessible. I don't have much interest in most of them too. Pick a few up during Steam sales and that's about it. I certainly won't be spending full $60 for these titles.

Thankfully with kickstarter, there are people out there who are attempting to make games that stays true to great classic concepts.
 
I'm still confused by the "core gamers". Doesn't every genre appeal to it's own type of audience? ALot of people don't have the chance to sit and play for hours on end. People like me only get a bit here and there and it seems that it's geared towards that alot too. Simplification if you will.
 
Call me an elitist all night long, as a pc gamer I know I would very much enjoy being without checkpoint saving, FoV of 60 degrees, big ugly console HUDs, quicktimes events to substitute actual gameplay by input controls, and cutscenes with shitty acting. But if I was a casual gamer, which I actually would say I am at this point in time largely thanks to these retarded phenomenons, then I would still want to be without these things. In the end of the day I'm just a person who cares about the hobby I'm into.
 
darknite said:
I'm still confused by the "core gamers". Doesn't every genre appeal to it's own type of audience? ALot of people don't have the chance to sit and play for hours on end. People like me only get a bit here and there and it seems that it's geared towards that alot too. Simplification if you will.
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Well, casual games have always been there in the gaming industry, its nothing new. Its just that the industry is losing its diversity because everyone wants to make a casual game these days. As you said, not everyone can dedicate the same amount of time to a video game, but the problem is most of the big company today only aims to please the casual crowd only, and so we stop having other quality games. Most games lose its uniqueness just to be casual and it results in low quality games.
 
also not sure what a core gamer is...I've been gaming on pc and console for 25 years now and the only problem I have right now is that there is too many shooters and MMO games in the market. some games could be deeper (the new X-Com) but thats on the developer's to come up with the time/money/effort.

I dont think they are 'dumbing down' games, I think they (they=publishers) are trying to streamline and create a process around making games so that games in X genre= Y time + Z money and that is resulting in innovative changes not making it into the process. they are trying to simplify making games, not simplify the game for the audience. The audience will adjust and play it if its fun...its a GAME, not rocket science.

dont act like in older games you were performing complex bio-engineering or something.
 
MelonSplitter said:
First of all, what do you mean by "core gamers",
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Good point. In some gaming communities I frequent, a game like Dark Souls is considered mainstream and made for casual gamers.

That being said, I do feel games are being designed with casual gamers in mind. For example, all of the useless social features and achievements integrated into Steam, and game series like Ace Combat being dumbed down further to look cooler. Even simple games (like Ace Combat) are being torn down and rebuilt to have a more casual appeal.
 
I see where Plaque is coming from on this one.

Most games now a days are simply dumbing down and because of this it is taking away from the core gamers. Core gamers of course being that 20 or 30 somethings that grew up on games that required skill, thought, and patience. Something that is severely lacking in more and more games these days.

One game that I look at as a particular example is the Crysis franchise. When Crysis originally came out on PC it was a game for those core gamers. A game that pushed for one to think about a plan of action, to take things seriously and use a bit of reasoning and caution when playing. One of those games that if you just went in guns blazing would probably get you killed. A TRUE game for the "core gamer" in many a sense.

Then the franchise goes "console" or "casual" with Crysis 2. A game that many of us hard core gamers were excited for! Yippee! Another hard core game with beautiful graphics and deep game play. What did we get? A game with only slightly better graphics (some would say even on the same level as the first or worse in some areas) with completely dumbed down mechanics that took us from a sprawling jungle to a corridor shooter with nearly none of the things that made the first a hard core game.

Not to mention other games and franchises that have gone soft...

So over all, I have to agree with Plaque...I've nearly gotten to the point of just not playing games anymore...not because I WANT too, but simply because there isn't the wide variety of choice and quality there once was.
 
I think the Wii-U will be Nintendo's attempt at winning some core Nintendo fans back. The new Mario game is great, tough as nails and has tons of fan service circa 1991 - aka Super Mario World.

I expect the new Zelda will be appropriately epic, unlike Skyward Sword which just plain sucked.

The new XBOX and PS3 hardware will bring the games up to close to PC levels at least. But yeah, not much going on here. Valve really let me down. The wonderment is gone. Looks like we're all going to have to get real lives. :eek:
 
The money is in the casual, CoD console gaming crowd nowadays, simple as that.
 
Another option to getting out of gaming is to expand your gaming horizons ... with the independent developers there are lots of interesting adventure and strategy games and the 2013/2014 time frame look very interesting for RPGs ... racing games I think have done well on both consoles and PCs (if you invest in good steering wheels and pedals) ... try checking out some of the independent offerings :)
 
maybe if "core gamers" were not generally so allergic to any new gaming tech that came out after the keyboard, mouse, 32bit color monitor and 2.0 speaker output, we'd see a bit more recognition. because, better graphics or not, many a "core gamer's" pc gaming setup makes those antiquated consoles look ultra-modern. I'd say no more than 30% have a xInput gamepad, 20% play in surround sound, 15% have a mouse with more than 5 buttons and 5% play in 3d. Nobody who's making modern games is going to be interested in this crowd.
 
"Core Gamers", I think fall into that fringe group, like audiophiles. And I suspect that if those fringe gamers were willing to pay $500 for a title, then there would be more of a supply of such games. But for the typical price point of $50, it makes sense that developers will be inclined to appeal to the masses.
 
Chrisroman said:
"Core Gamers", I think fall into that fringe group, like audiophiles. And I suspect that if those fringe gamers were willing to pay $500 for a title, then there would be more of a supply of such games. But for the typical price point of $50, it makes sense that developers will be inclined to appeal to the masses.
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Especially since developing a game isn't cheap these days.
 
Plague_Injected said:
I also have no real interest in sifting through low-budget, retro games to find a satisfying gaming experience when they are all mostly based on very old ideas and don't break any real new ground (Super Meat Boy and Hotline Miami both come to mind).
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You wont be able to name one game that is like Hotline Miami.
I will wait. If you say GTA, then I know you haven't played it and don't know what you talking about. "Retro" graphics doesn't automatically mean the game doesn't "break new ground".

Tell me how thats any different from COD games looking exactly the same for the last 4 iterations. Then by definition thats retro too. Because it's old and I've seen it before, and it's not breaking new ground.

See how ridiculous that sounds?
If you really want to play games, you wouldn't cut out a piece of the market just because it isn't shiny. Sounds like all you want is shiny...
 
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Ok. Then stop. If you aren't enjoying it then move one to something that is fun for you.

I have fun with games like Morrowind which don't really guide you at all, but I also enjoy games like Oblivion(just an example of the same series) which basically holds your hand the entire time.
 
Chrisroman said:
"Core Gamers", I think fall into that fringe group, like audiophiles. And I suspect that if those fringe gamers were willing to pay $500 for a title, then there would be more of a supply of such games. But for the typical price point of $50, it makes sense that developers will be inclined to appeal to the masses.
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Yeah, except the reality is that it's the other way around. Where the casuals jump on games for $50-60, the "educated core gamers" are more inclined to wait until it's $10 and buy it.

I gave up caring when I realised developers and publishers have little monetary reason to pursue the fickle hardcore gamer market. That's not to say there aren't other reasons they might or that games aimed at the hardcore crowd can't make money.

But crying that they aren't catering to me seems pretty pointless especially when most the people who do it can't even do it without insulting people, that's not a group I wish to be associated with. That's the other thing that made me care a lot less about the hardcore crowd, having arguments with people who I don't necessarily disagree with, but were incapable of making a point without being insulting douchebags, a trait that seems common among the "hardcore" crowds in various hobbies I've pursued.

So these days I just take gaming for what it is, try and enjoy each game for what it is instead of crying about the state of gaming in general, and if I can't enjoy a game for what it is, move on to the next one. When I can no longer enjoy games for what they are, then I predict I'll spend a lot less time gaming and probably a lot more time working on my cars ;)
 
You have to remember that at one time, when you were younger, you were the target audience. Those games you enjoy from your childhood were designed with you in mind. Now that you're older, the industry has evolved, but you're still looking for those old experiences. Games have moved on and the new generation of gamers have come in. I can't say that I was right back in the day and the games I played were any better or worse (I always think they were top notch), and today's games are crap compared to them.

Games evolve, most gamers do not. That's why I still have an extensive collection of older games. I still play a lot of new ones, but they are few and far between. I'm not a fan of the newer style games for the most part. My kids are, and they are usually the AAA games. Luckily, they appreciate and love the older games, too.

So, I can't say that the newer games blow goats. To me, they aren't as good as the older ones. Nostalgia? Nah. Just more of an effort to make a game into an entertainment experience (movie cut scenes, hand holding throughout, etc.) instead of a game.
 
Chrisroman said:
"Core Gamers", I think fall into that fringe group, like audiophiles. And I suspect that if those fringe gamers were willing to pay $500 for a title, then there would be more of a supply of such games. But for the typical price point of $50, it makes sense that developers will be inclined to appeal to the masses.
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The tube-amp / vinyl record loving sub-genre of audophiles is a pretty good analog to core gamers. Nothing made today is any good, and everything made in the past is much better than it really was.

Although, I can think of very few gamers who talk condescendingly of spending $80 on something they could have downloaded from iTunes for $9.99. So maybe they're just as cheap as the rest of us, just ashamed to like anything that has public acclaim and accolades...

basically Hipsters.
 
Developers are different these days sadly. Originally games were developed by people with ideas who struggled and fought to get games made.

As games became viewed as cash machines a different species of developer split off. "For work" Developers are people making games strictly for a paycheck.

They say anything to get you to believe they care about whatever game they're making in bullshit interviews but they're just hired staff or in many cases as we've seen you'll see these poor sucker kids, the ones that got talked into the field with those stupid " be a videogame designer!" college commercials who are "just doing this until they can get approval to make their own game."

What everyone is missing is that a lot of the old fuckers stayed and are still making games. On top of that there are plenty of new kids making games for their own virtue. No graphics just aren't going to be the main focus because nobody has the money for that yet. Though Valve seems to onbaord to make that reality for many indie developers. Self development is a newer concept that has come with the spread of internet access and easier self-promotion The money will come with the spread of these games popularity.
 
If difficulty is what these "core gamers" want, why don't they just up the difficulty option at the start screen to "Hard" or higher? I've never understood this issue. Is it a problem because casual gamers can still see the entire game in "Normal" mode? Meaning, the enjoyment is in suppressing the majority?

For an example: I play Amalur on "Hard". Why? because I heard its too easy on normal. Do I give two shits what anyone else plays it on? Nope. I'm playing it for my enjoyment and other people don't factor in on that. So if they dumb down Dark Souls 2 a bit, who cares?! If you want a challenge, up the difficulty!
 
Plague_Injected said:
It's a complete race to the bottom.
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Blame gaming's mainstream success recently. It's attracted the bottom-feeding parasites of our society: people out to make money with no other objective whatsoever. In fact, this problem is the single largest reason the US is going down the shitter.

Look up Project Socrates. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Socrates

TLDR: American intelligence community investigated waning US competitiveness on a global scale in the early 80s. They found that a shift had taken place in the US after WWII whereby technology-based decision making had been supplanted by economically-motivated decisions on an epidemic level, with disastrous consequences.
 
Theycallmejer said:
If difficulty is what these "core gamers" want, why don't they just up the difficulty option at the start screen to "Hard" or higher? I've never understood this issue. Is it a problem because casual gamers can still see the entire game in "Normal" mode? Meaning, the enjoyment is in suppressing the majority?

For an example: I play Amalur on "Hard". Why? because I heard its too easy on normal. Do I give two shits what anyone else plays it on? Nope. I'm playing it for my enjoyment and other people don't factor in on that. So if they dumb down Dark Souls 2 a bit, who cares?! If you want a challenge, up the difficulty!
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What the OP and a few others are talking about here isn't simply difficulty level. It is also innovation, creative new gameplay mechanics and depth.

Developers these days will not take a chance on creating games with fresh new gameplay mechanics. Quite often when a supposed new gameplay mechanic is introduced to a title, it turns out to be fairly gimmicky and not necessarily add a great deal of substance to the gaming experience. Just look at the plethora of FPS games out there that really are simply cookie cutter versions of themselves with some uninspired combo system or slow down time feature.

Bring back games like Dungeon Keeper, Magic Carpet, the original Syndicate and any number of the unique and original titles of the early to late 90's. Hell, even the Sega Genesis had a greater number of unique, different gameplay experiences than the titles getting sharted out by big publishers these days.

Would love to see something like this made into a modern game :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWQHaH6I0iw
 
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When was the last big-name game? Deus Ex: Human Revolution

The art direction is on par with James Cameron's work.
 
Plague_Injected said:
Seriously...when was the last time a big-name game appealed to and was designed for core gamers?

Everything is being dumbed down (sorry, being made "more accessible" and being "streamlined") in order to maximise sales. Established franchises are changed to increase audiences...but the changes are never for the better. Existing fanbases are snubbed because some suit says they aren't a big enough number.

I am all for games evolving, but the changes that are made to subsequent titles in franchises are never for the better. Changes are assessed solely on what an existing fan can and cannot tolerate.

The only use for core gamers is in generating a playerbase and some hype for a new IP which will be franchised and dumbed down at the first sign of mass-exposure. Case in point - Dark Souls. This game's cult status amongst core gamers was propelled by the almost-underground word-of-mouth hype of its predecessor Demon's Souls. It was the shining example of a game being designed for serious gamers. Now Dark Souls II will be a "Souls" game in name only, with its creator sidelined so it can go in a new direction. The existing fanbase doesn't matter. Suits will easily forego every single one of them if it brings in a new, bigger customer base...one that is more easily impressed and is more easily parted with $$$.

I am seriously considering giving up gaming. There is almost nothing here for me anymore. When Microsoft thought having Usher at a gaming convention show was a great idea, it really hit home that people like myself are no longer the target audience, and perhaps not even relevant anymore. The revelations about how Dark Souls II is being developed have really been the last straw. The only games that have any kind of learning curve seem to be indie games with graphics from 20+ years ago. I have nothing against these games, but I also have no real interest in sifting through low-budget, retro games to find a satisfying gaming experience when they are all mostly based on very old ideas and don't break any real new ground (Super Meat Boy and Hotline Miami both come to mind).

Games should be evolving with the technology, but they simply are not. It's a complete race to the bottom.
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Maybe I'm reading too much into your post but you sound awfully angry at something that is honestly just an entertainment medium and very low on the priorities list. Maybe you are young but as a gamer myself who has a family, I don't get upset about these issues since if I buy a crap entertainment product without researching it then its my fault.

Yes I agree some of the stuff that comes out today is crap but there are some really great games out today that I enjoyed more than when I was a kid. I fondly remember my NES, SNES console days and spending a few quarters at the local arcade. Do I want gaming to go back to that? No its time to move on. You mentioned Dark Souls as being an example of hardcore gaming. When I was a kid more than likely I would have played this game but as an adult with limited gaming time, playing a game that is so unforgiving feels like a waste of time. As I got older I like for everything I do to mean something or moving toward something. This also translates into gaming hence why I love RPG's or games that don't go to zero "game over man" because I screwed up once.

In short, gaming is a product sold to entertain you. If you are not happy with the product complain to the developer or don't buy their products but please do not don't throw yourself in a pit full of hungry zombies because XYZ game series is not hardcore enough anymore. Enjoy gaming or pick another hobby.
 
Ur_Mom said:
You have to remember that at one time, when you were younger, you were the target audience. Those games you enjoy from your childhood were designed with you in mind. Now that you're older, the industry has evolved, but you're still looking for those old experiences. Games have moved on and the new generation of gamers have come in. I can't say that I was right back in the day and the games I played were any better or worse (I always think they were top notch), and today's games are crap compared to them.

Games evolve, most gamers do not. That's why I still have an extensive collection of older games. I still play a lot of new ones, but they are few and far between. I'm not a fan of the newer style games for the most part. My kids are, and they are usually the AAA games. Luckily, they appreciate and love the older games, too.

So, I can't say that the newer games blow goats. To me, they aren't as good as the older ones. Nostalgia? Nah. Just more of an effort to make a game into an entertainment experience (movie cut scenes, hand holding throughout, etc.) instead of a game.
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+1 on this.

Most of the games I play are 20+ years old. To people such as myself, we viewed ourselves as the core gamer when the industry evolved, and many of you who view yourselves as core gamers today were the casual gamer.

Times change. It's not that games you play will disappear, but you just might not be part of the mainstream audience any more. It doesn't mean that the newer generation is casual.
 
Tudz said:
Yeah, except the reality is that it's the other way around. Where the casuals jump on games for $50-60, the "educated core gamers" are more inclined to wait until it's $10 and buy it.

I gave up caring when I realised developers and publishers have little monetary reason to pursue the fickle hardcore gamer market. That's not to say there aren't other reasons they might or that games aimed at the hardcore crowd can't make money.

But crying that they aren't catering to me seems pretty pointless especially when most the people who do it can't even do it without insulting people, that's not a group I wish to be associated with. That's the other thing that made me care a lot less about the hardcore crowd, having arguments with people who I don't necessarily disagree with, but were incapable of making a point without being insulting douchebags, a trait that seems common among the "hardcore" crowds in various hobbies I've pursued.

So these days I just take gaming for what it is, try and enjoy each game for what it is instead of crying about the state of gaming in general, and if I can't enjoy a game for what it is, move on to the next one. When I can no longer enjoy games for what they are, then I predict I'll spend a lot less time gaming and probably a lot more time working on my cars ;)
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Don't get me wrong, I try to enjoy games as much as I can, granted that the market isn't as "booming", should we say, as it once was, but there's honest developers out there trying to make the best they can, even if some work IS sometimes sacrificed for the good of dollar earning potential. As a short-lived game developer (wanted a better career with less hours), it's difficult to understand why the higher-ups make certain decisions that are counter-intuitive and go against the "philosophy" of what it is a game is made of. You're caught in the middle constantly.

Bamboo said:
Welcome to the club. The coffee is by the back door. We're out of creamer though.
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What in the fuck is "creamer"? Sounds like a porn-star gone out of control.
 
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