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Cooling with a Peltier

B

Bobsaysthis

Gawd
Joined
Apr 1, 2003
Messages
718
Ok, so ive got a small water cooling setup right now with a Danger Den Maze 4, Black ice micro radiator, decent pump. It does its job but ive been itchin to give a Peltier a try. I wanted to know if anyone uses one of these? Are they better than water cooling? Is condensation on them a big worry? How hot does the non-cooling side get? Whats the general cost of the powersupply needed to run it? I was thinking of buying the cold plate setup an materials from danger den. Any info on helpin me figure out wheather or not to get one of these puppies is greatly appreciated.

EDIT: Lookin at this setup...
http://www.dangerden.com/images/MAZE4/m41shd3_lg.jpg
http://www.dangerden.com/images/MAZE4/m41shd2_lg.jpg
 
Originally posted by Bobsaysthis
anyboody?:)
Click to expand...

It's, uh, 4 am. Not a lot of people on. Give it a bit of time.

I don't have personal experience, but from what I've read it is expensive. You don't just get a small pelt and slap it on, you need a larger one, which is high wattage (can't remember number figures, see opening sentance. :p). You'll need an external power supply for the pelt, too, and they tend to be expensive.
 
I don't work with peltiers, but from their theory of operation I would not advise using a high wattage pelt with a micro radiator. You would probably want to use a larger heat exchanger (read heatercore / radiator) to deal with eliminating the extra load placed on the cooling system.

How hot does the non-cooling side get? Well, from this page, I'd have to say "pretty damn hot." Consider a 65W lightbulb: how long can you keep your hand wrapped around it when lit? Now consider 226W.

I'm sure later today there will be more posts from people who have experience with peltiers. Or you could go to the
Pro Cooling Forums and check around in there.
 
Originally posted by ’m‚³‚ñ
It's, uh, 4 am. Not a lot of people on. Give it a bit of time.
Click to expand...

Yea, it was more of just a goonight bump;) .

Thanks for the input thus far, I was lookin at power supplies and th pages you gave me, seems like with the heat put off and the money for a powersupply, I might as well just upgrade my water cooling system, might as well just spend the money on a few upgrades to that.
 
peltiers are a great in theory,but they use A LOT of power for little or no gain.. and it's a real bitch to get them balanced correctly.
 
You'd need a good phase change + air cooling system to get any marginal results out of the peliter, when phase change + air will get you similar results by themselves.
 
Thanks for your guys' input, I had wanted to do it for a "just to do it" sorta thing, pride finishing another project mostly;) . But now Im just gonna up my H20 system since it seems the peltiers cant be done too cheaply or with less of a hassle than water cooling provides. Thanks again!
 
what!!!!!!!!

i have a pelt setup for less then 70$$$$

mostly ghetto but still


pelt on the nb and pelt on the cpu all running off a old psu that i modded
 
Originally posted by thebro
what!!!!!!!!

i have a pelt setup for less then 70$$$$

mostly ghetto but still


pelt on the nb and pelt on the cpu all running off a old psu that i modded
Click to expand...

What wattage pelt? Most places ive read say that an atx psu aint the best idea. How long have you been using it? What are your temps?
 
it a 226w pelt and i run a 0C full load

but thats if i put ice in my bucket:D
 
Originally posted by M4d-K10wN
You'd need a good phase change + air cooling system to get any marginal results out of the peliter, when phase change + air will get you similar results by themselves.
Click to expand...

What are you talking about? A phase change setup alone can get you much lower temps than a peltier. And I don't have any idea what you mean when you say "phase change + air". You need a watercooling loop or one helluva heatsink to get decent results with a peltier on any modern processor.
 
No matter how good your phase change is, it will still generate more heat that it cools. So, you'll have to keep the hot air away from it using simple fans, duh. And the rest of what you said was basicly re-phrasing what i said.
 
Originally posted by M4d-K10wN
No matter how good your phase change is, it will still generate more heat that it cools. So, you'll have to keep the hot air away from it using simple fans, duh. And the rest of what you said was basicly re-phrasing what i said.
Click to expand...

No... a peltier always generates more heat than it pumps. Phase change systems are more efficient. And I still don't know why you need "simple fans".
 
Originally posted by M4d-K10wN
No matter how good your phase change is, it will still generate more heat that it cools. So, you'll have to keep the hot air away from it using simple fans, duh. And the rest of what you said was basicly re-phrasing what i said.
Click to expand...

I'm seriously getting tired of your idiotic comments. Read up or shut up.
 
Just buy a Vapochill that will solve the heat problem in your cpu hehe. Be prepared and gather all the money you have!


Edit: This thread is gonna get closed anytime soon probbably.
 
I've actually been doing some research into the whole phase change vs. peltier debate lately, and here are some rough ideas that I've had. If anyone has any input into this, please feel free, as I'm no expert by any means.

I've had a very nice watercooled loop that I've been running for about two years now, ( http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=681964 ) and have been very satisfied with it, but I'm starting to get bit by the mod bug again. As a result, I've looked back into the realm of below ambient cooling, and here are the options I've priced out.

1.) Add mini-fridge into watercooled loop ( Making a water-chiller using minimal hacking/modding) . Cost - about $100.00, including fridge, new tubing, nipples, and resivors for fridge to plumb into condensor with mods. This is such a low cost solution because of the existing setup I have. Pro's - Quiet, below ambient, fairly energy efficent. Con's - Takes up a lot of space, really need to seal mobo for condensation, only as powerful as the onboard compressor.

2.) Add Pelt, RAD, fans, and power supply into watercooled loop. ( http://www.overclockers.com/tips326/Cost ) - About $130.00, including Maze 4 block with 226W pelt, 77 Bonnevile core, two fans, and 400watt ATX power supply. The supply is BARELY up to the task of doing this job. A bigger supply would be a better idea, but this gets expensive. Again, cheaper because of my existing setup. Pro's - Takes up minimum space, below ambient cooling, lots of fun to work with. Con's - Can very easily fry the CPU if the Pelt is off as the Pelt will act as an insulator, eats up lots of power, need to seal for condensation.

3.) Put entire mobo inside a mini fridge. ( http://www.overclockers.com/articles975/index02.asp ) Cost - About $120.00, again because of what I'm starting with. This is a fairly off-the-wall idea, with some great merit. Pro's - Don't have to seal mobo for condensation because ambient temp is fridge temp, No more CPU cases, really unique, very quiet and efficent. Cons - Lots of work, takes up a lot of space, lot of pitfalls to overcome.

4.) Condenser cooling. ( http://www.overclockers.com/tips1032/ ) Cost - About $150.00, including brazing torch, solder, and old Air Conditioner to rip apart. This would be the most efficent method of all three, but would also involve the most amount of work. There are a million possibilities and ways to implement this, from cooling direcly on the die, to creating a water chiller. Look around for some ideas. Pro's - Incredible temps, great overclocking. Con's - Have to learn to braze copper piping, lots of work, may be very loud depending on fan used to remove heat from system.

Hope this helps in your quest for more cooling.

Matt.
 
Originally posted by enraged78
I've actually been doing some research into the whole phase change vs. peltier debate lately, and here are some rough ideas that I've had. If anyone has any input into this, please feel free, as I'm no expert by any means.

I've had a very nice watercooled loop that I've been running for about two years now, ( http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=681964 ) and have been very satisfied with it, but I'm starting to get bit by the mod bug again. As a result, I've looked back into the realm of below ambient cooling, and here are the options I've priced out.

1.) Add mini-fridge into watercooled loop ( Making a water-chiller using minimal hacking/modding) . Cost - about $100.00, including fridge, new tubing, nipples, and resivors for fridge to plumb into condensor with mods. This is such a low cost solution because of the existing setup I have. Pro's - Quiet, below ambient, fairly energy efficent. Con's - Takes up a lot of space, really need to seal mobo for condensation, only as powerful as the onboard compressor.

2.) Add Pelt, RAD, fans, and power supply into watercooled loop. ( http://www.overclockers.com/tips326/Cost ) - About $130.00, including Maze 4 block with 226W pelt, 77 Bonnevile core, two fans, and 400watt ATX power supply. The supply is BARELY up to the task of doing this job. A bigger supply would be a better idea, but this gets expensive. Again, cheaper because of my existing setup. Pro's - Takes up minimum space, below ambient cooling, lots of fun to work with. Con's - Can very easily fry the CPU if the Pelt is off as the Pelt will act as an insulator, eats up lots of power, need to seal for condensation.

3.) Put entire mobo inside a mini fridge. ( http://www.overclockers.com/articles975/index02.asp ) Cost - About $120.00, again because of what I'm starting with. This is a fairly off-the-wall idea, with some great merit. Pro's - Don't have to seal mobo for condensation because ambient temp is fridge temp, No more CPU cases, really unique, very quiet and efficent. Cons - Lots of work, takes up a lot of space, lot of pitfalls to overcome.

4.) Condenser cooling. ( http://www.overclockers.com/tips1032/ ) Cost - About $150.00, including brazing torch, solder, and old Air Conditioner to rip apart. This would be the most efficent method of all three, but would also involve the most amount of work. There are a million possibilities and ways to implement this, from cooling direcly on the die, to creating a water chiller. Look around for some ideas. Pro's - Incredible temps, great overclocking. Con's - Have to learn to braze copper piping, lots of work, may be very loud depending on fan used to remove heat from system.

Hope this helps in your quest for more cooling.

Matt.
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you wont get subambient with a pelt; thats not the idea of them, thats not what to expect at all.

personally those all look like a bad step from straight WC, first id go to pelt so you learn how to insulate correctly, etc
 
Originally posted by kronchev
you wont get subambient with a pelt; thats not the idea of them, thats not what to expect at all.

Click to expand...

Huh?!? If ambient temp in my house is 65 Degrees farenhieit, and I use a pelt to drop the CPU temp to 20 Degrees Farenheit, that's subambient, right? Are we talking about the same thing here?


personally those all look like a bad step from straight WC, first id go to pelt so you learn how to insulate correctly, etc
Click to expand...

Again, I'm confused. Unless you go below ambient temperature, condensation cannot occur, so what exactly are you talking about? Please clarify. I've been working with Pelt's for a while, and have been since my K6-2 days. If I'm not accurate on any of these things, please go into detail as to why. Also, how are any of these a bad setup? Chillers are great and effective, and pelts are nice too. They both have their drawbacks, but I wouldn't consider either one "bad" per se.

Please reply back.

Thanks,
Matt.
 
Originally posted by enraged78
Huh?!? If ambient temp in my house is 65 Degrees farenhieit, and I use a pelt to drop the CPU temp to 20 Degrees Farenheit, that's subambient, right? Are we talking about the same thing here?
Click to expand...


yes, but youre not going to get that without a hardcore cooling system.

Again, I'm confused. Unless you go below ambient temperature, condensation cannot occur, so what exactly are you talking about? Please clarify. I've been working with Pelt's for a while, and have been since my K6-2 days. If I'm not accurate on any of these things, please go into detail as to why. Also, how are any of these a bad setup? Chillers are great and effective, and pelts are nice too. They both have their drawbacks, but I wouldn't consider either one "bad" per se.

Please reply back.

Thanks,
Matt.
Click to expand...

none are bad, in fact someday Ill build one of those myself. but what im saying is, you need a heavy duty system to put it under ambient (and thats a point where you have to ask yourself, who really cares if its 5 above ambient or 5 under, it will run stable either way), and if you do manage to get it sub ambient (the chip is the temp im talking about, the pelt obviously can easily go to sub ambient but the chip itself will be more involved to get subambient) then youll get condensation on the pelt, which you know is bad for all electronics involved, and involves perfect protection
 
Originally posted by kronchev
yes, but youre not going to get that without a hardcore cooling system.



none are bad, in fact someday Ill build one of those myself. but what im saying is, you need a heavy duty system to put it under ambient (and thats a point where you have to ask yourself, who really cares if its 5 above ambient or 5 under, it will run stable either way), and if you do manage to get it sub ambient (the chip is the temp im talking about, the pelt obviously can easily go to sub ambient but the chip itself will be more involved to get subambient) then youll get condensation on the pelt, which you know is bad for all electronics involved, and involves perfect protection
Click to expand...

Awesome. Thanks for clarifying. You bring up some interesting points, but I'm starting to wonder exactly how 'worth it' these hardcore systems will be. With my current WC setup, I run between 10-20 degrees above ambient. The system has room for improvement, and I think that I should be able to get it to 7-10 degrees above ambient with more heat removal through a large heater core with fans. However, in order for me to get to about 2.6-2.7Ghz on my FX-51, I'm going to need more than 10 Degrees of seperation, which is why I'm looking at condensation so seriously. In order to achive what I want, I'm going to need to be WAY below ambient, and it's going to be difficult to get there. I need to do more research.

Thanks,
Matt.
 
Originally posted by zer0signal667
No... a peltier always generates more heat than it pumps. Phase change systems are more efficient. And I still don't know why you need "simple fans".
Click to expand...
Sigh, so you're saying that phase change cooling is more than 100% effecient, when it's impossible to attain 100% in the first place? And how else do you plan to keep the heat away from the component that heats, be it the compressor, or something else? Sigh...
 
Originally posted by M4d-K10wN
Sigh, so you're saying that phase change cooling is more than 100% effecient, when it's impossible to attain 100% in the first place? And how else do you plan to keep the heat away from the component that heats, be it the compressor, or something else? Sigh...
Click to expand...

No, I said they are MORE efficient. And I still really have no idea what you're talking about with heat blowing around... go look at some actual phase change based and peltier based cooling systems out there, realize how they work, and then argue with me if you still think I'm wrong.
And stop sighing, either go to sleep if you're tired or get some medication if you're depressed.
 
A whole lot of BS being thrown around as fact. People read before you post...

I have been running a 226W pelt with a Maze 4-1 for awhile now. It runs just fine on a Black Ice Pro..It would not work with a micro. Sorry, the size of the micro wouldn't be able to cool the water quick enough...maybe if you had a push/pull config with some tornados, but one advantage of a good water cooled system is its relative quiteness compaired with high-end HSF solutions so.....(read tornados are LOUD)

A high-end HSF will get you close to ambient with a great deal of noise. A decent water cooling setup will get you around ambient without the volume. A TEC/water rig will MOST DEFINITELY get you subambient. A phase-change rig will MOST DEFINITELY get you below freezing. Of course it all depends on your voltages and a few other things but rest assured the above is almost always true.

Condensation is a problem with anything that goes below subambient. Think ice cold coke being poured into a glass at room temp (ambient). What happens...water dropplets form on the outside of the glass. This is due to the cold surface of the glass coming into contact with the warm room air. If you are cooling your CPU below ambient then if any air gets in and around the socket area you can expect the same effect. Same with phase-change, which is why you need to get some neoprene, some dielectric grease, silicon sealant, and conformal coating (if you are really paranoid).

Anther factor to consider when using a pelt, is the HUGE power requirements of a pelt. We are talking a huge draw on the 12v line of your PS, and only some of the best of the best PS should be used with high wattage pelt (226W). Your best bet is to use an industrial power supply like the commonly used meanwell power supplies. IF you are lucky you can find these on the cheap, but usually expect to pay around a cnote for one.

Just for reference my 2500 @ 2.5Ghz @ ~1.8(5)v usually sits at around 14C under load. 7C Idle. I am in Florida and the temps are rising so it is not uncommon to see them creep up...sometimes hittin 19C.

Edit: I put together a little article for the website of the place I work. Link here.. http://www.tftcomputers.com/subambient.htm
 
vapor phase change waterchiller that dumps the heat outside while still supa-chilling the coolant -- kudos to gary for this one:
http://www.captaincascade.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=84&st=15&#entry897

I have built one something like that but his is hella clean.

pelts vs. phase change? no comparison. phase change is one helluva lot more efficient and it can get much colder when compared to current pelt technology. Still, a decent size pelt will produce some good cooling when combined with H2O cooling and the proper power supply. the power supply is usually the catch - you have to check the power requirements of the pelt you plan on using and then buying PSU that will hack it. As hardwarephreak pointed out, industrial PSUs are the way to go.

insane pelt cooling? dig up an old maze 2-2 and mod the cold plate so it will take twin 50mm pelts -- then bolt a couple 226w pelts into that bastage and add an inch of insulation to everything. :D

also, pelts are good for n.bridges and vid cards when combined with an adequate watercooling loop. I use a waterblock with an 80w pelt on the n.bridge of my phase change system and it works very well -- the n.bridge is usually 0 deg C. Just to clarify that - the phase change system cools the CPU, the n.bridge is cooled by watercooling and an 80w pelt.

back to the phase change chiller for a second - one advantage of the phase change chiller route is it gives you a way to cool everything provided your chiller packs enough power.
 
Originally posted by Bobsaysthis
I think this guy had a pretty good idea to use a lower wattage peltier for chilling his water... http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=751029
Click to expand...

I have the same idea for chillin the water in loop, but in the other thread where I posted the pic of my plan they said its a waste. Well I posted again the pic in the thread you just linked(If you wanna check it out feel free to comment and criticize).
 
That seems like a pretty good idea too but I think itd be easier to just flip one over in a block/cold plate setup and cool the underside with air, with a lower wattge pelt it might not get the water really chilled, but itll keep its temps lower than usual im sure. Are you thinking of doing this setup still? if so, post some pics!
 
Originally posted by Bobsaysthis
That seems like a pretty good idea too but I think itd be easier to just flip one over in a block/cold plate setup and cool the underside with air, with a lower wattge pelt it might not get the water really chilled, but itll keep its temps lower than usual im sure. Are you thinking of doing this setup still? if so, post some pics!
Click to expand...

Welp I'm still building my WC acrylic box(I'm slow) so I might do that after I finish the WC box. I do have all the components of a WC loop so yeh just need to finish that box. I still need a confirmation tho if someone have tried running an 80w(Imax = 8.0 Amps, Qmax = 80.0 Watts, Vmax = 16.1 Volts, Delta Tmax = 71(C)) pelt on a PSU(a 300w PSU Output:;+12V@15A) or if any electrician guy would confirn that it'll be possible to run two 80w pelts on diff 12v rail lines. (the 300 w PSU will power up a Nexus 305 Fan controller with 2 cathodes 2 evercool 120mm fan on 3rd controller, 2 more 120 mm fan on 2nd and one TT 120mm fan on 1st controller, a pump, and led feet). I just need confirmation if it'll work if I do get confirmation I will go for it just for fun.
 
I've already said pelts and phase change aren't my thing, but there is one thing I'd like to point out. More of a "nit pick" really.

If I recall my thermodynamics correctly, the condensation that occurs when a coldplate comes into contact with ambient air is because of the humidity in the air. The drier the air, the less condensation forms.

So...assuming the logic holds, if you were to remove all of the humidity from the air, you could run a pelt / phase change system with no insulation. Is this correct?
 
Originally posted by AggieMEEN
I've already said pelts and phase change aren't my thing, but there is one thing I'd like to point out. More of a "nit pick" really.

If I recall my thermodynamics correctly, the condensation that occurs when a coldplate comes into contact with ambient air is because of the humidity in the air. The drier the air, the less condensation forms.

So...assuming the logic holds, if you were to remove all of the humidity from the air, you could run a pelt / phase change system with no insulation. Is this correct?
Click to expand...

Yes... but it's pretty tough to remove all humidity from the air.
 
Originally posted by Therms
And it'd be damn uncomfortable to work in a room with 0% humidity.
Click to expand...

I find high humidity pretty uncomfortable... I can't say what 0% feels like though because I doubt I've ever felt it.
 
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