Cooling Liquids??

[sok0]

goddamn you!

now I am pissed off all over again

fucking Eddy anyway...DIE IN A FIRE EK!!!!!!

Good times... Honestly, It's how EK and the ownership acted during the whole event that made me never want to use their stuff again. And not sure if you guys have seen other forums with EK Reps on them, they act like 12 year olds and flame and troll people who ask serious questions.

 

[magoo]

Forget the EK Issue. It is still not best to use silver and nickle together. I just use a biocide because my aqualis has a nickle plated brass tube, and I just got a nickle plated video card block.

Please provide some science as to why silver and nickel are a bad combination.

I have only found anecdotal evidence as to the problem, and strangely enough it was all during the EK problem.

If this was truly a problem, then every manufacturer of waterblocks and fittings would have a giant package insert to that effect.

Face it.....nickel is applied to an underlying copper substrate. There are any number of variables that could cause the nickel finish to erode over time.

 

[Tsumi]

While I haven't checked the inside of my blocks, my loop is still completely clear. Dangerden nickel plated 580 blocks with a silver killcoil in the reservoir.

 

[Justintoxicated]

Please provide some science as to why silver and nickel are a bad combination.

I have only found anecdotal evidence as to the problem, and strangely enough it was all during the EK problem.

If this was truly a problem, then every manufacturer of waterblocks and fittings would have a giant package insert to that effect.

Face it.....nickel is applied to an underlying copper substrate. There are any number of variables that could cause the nickel finish to erode over time.

It's not as bad as some things like copper an aluminum but.

"the difference between Copper and Aluminum is 2.01v while the difference between Copper and Nickle is 0.59v. Copper and Brass would be slightly worse than Cu/Ni with a potential difference of 0.69v. In any case the "more anodic" material will be "eaten" while the "more cathodic" metal will be effectively protected from corrosion by the anode. In both scenarios the copper is the Cathode, so it will remain untouched while the AL or Ni will be corroded."

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/water-cooling/44163-dissimilar-metals-galvanic-corrosion.html

Using this chart:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrode-potential-d_482.html
we can see that the potential difference in
copper and silver = .46 (negligable)
copper and nickle = .58 (still negligable)
but silver & nickle = 1.04 (not great)

 

[magoo]

It's not as bad as some things like copper an aluminum but.

"the difference between Copper and Aluminum is 2.01v while the difference between Copper and Nickle is 0.59v. Copper and Brass would be slightly worse than Cu/Ni with a potential difference of 0.69v. In any case the "more anodic" material will be "eaten" while the "more cathodic" metal will be effectively protected from corrosion by the anode. In both scenarios the copper is the Cathode, so it will remain untouched while the AL or Ni will be corroded."

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/water-cooling/44163-dissimilar-metals-galvanic-corrosion.html

Using this chart:
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/electrode-potential-d_482.html
we can see that the potential difference in
copper and silver = .46 (negligable)
copper and nickle = .58 (still negligable)
but silver & nickle = 1.04 (not great)

You'll notice that those points are moot.
Galvanic reactions will not take place unless the solution is conductive.
Distilled water is a non- conductive solution.

I don't at all draw the conclusion from your quoted source.
That table merely lists charge differences if a single metal strip is compared to a standard hydrogen electrode.
All it tells me is silver is a better cathode than nickel, it does nothing to compare what would happen if I placed plain silver into a water bath containing a nickel plated copper block.

 

[magoo]

I direct readers to this thread.
This is a classic argument regarding nickel "flaking" or "oxidation" in watercooling.

The thread is very well written, please review the photos:

http://www.realredraider.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=47917






The conclusion: "Both the photographic evidence and the chemical tests support that a bimetallic corrosion situation was present, involving copper and nickel mutually exposed to an electrolyte, resulting in anodic erosion of the copper. I think it's rather pointless to continue debating that this problem is due to anything other than inferior nickel plating. "


Although this thread is using EK blocks, please remember this was several years ago. I'm not sure if the problem still exists with EK and I am not picking on their products, nor am I trying to defame/violate/or flame their good name or products.

This thread simply puts to rest any concerns about the solutions used to watercool or reduce algae.

The problem always stems from poor plating or imperfection in the plating process, not from solution additives, unless you use salt water or acids.

 

[jojo69]

I am not picking on their products, nor am I trying to defame/violate/or flame their good name or products.

They may or may not have fixed their product. I don't care.

They squandered any "good name" they had with their behavior in that episode.

 

[Justintoxicated]

You'll notice that those points are moot.
Galvanic reactions will not take place unless the solution is conductive.
Distilled water is a non- conductive solution.

I don't at all draw the conclusion from your quoted source.
That table merely lists charge differences if a single metal strip is compared to a standard hydrogen electrode.
All it tells me is silver is a better cathode than nickel, it does nothing to compare what would happen if I placed plain silver into a water bath containing a nickel plated copper block.

I'm not sure if your serious??

Distilled water BECOMES conductive. According to you mixing aluminum and copper is fine because distilled water is non-conductive...If your so certain distilled water is non conductive, id like to see a video of you pouring some onto your motherboard and turning the computer on.

The charge differences are what leads to galvanic corrosion.

"Dissimilar metals and alloys have different electrode potentials, and when two or more come into contact in an electrolyte, one metal acts as anode and the other as cathode. The electropotential difference between the dissimilar metals is the driving force for an accelerated attack on the anode member of the galvanic couple. The anode metal dissolves into the electrolyte, and deposit collects on the cathodic metal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

 

[SticKx911]

In addition to what others are saying here, you can add some "Water Wetter" to the water to increase the efficiency.

It is made for automobiles to help the cooling system be more efficient. Will do the same for a PC cooling setup.

http://www.redlineoil.com/Products.aspx?pcid=10

I do this...

 

[Justintoxicated]

I do this...

I wouldn't it's know to cause problems. It can gum up over time, which is very bad for waterblocks.

 

[Crispy002]

Distilled + PT Nuke is cheap and easy. My copper and nickel looks just fine and it's going on 5 years.

Any perceived performance differences in more expensive solutions are almost certainly negligible. There's no reason to complicate this.

 

[magoo]

I'm not sure if your serious??

Distilled water BECOMES conductive. According to you mixing aluminum and copper is fine because distilled water is non-conductive...If your so certain distilled water is non conductive, id like to see a video of you pouring some onto your motherboard and turning the computer on.

The charge differences are what leads to galvanic corrosion.

"Dissimilar metals and alloys have different electrode potentials, and when two or more come into contact in an electrolyte, one metal acts as anode and the other as cathode. The electropotential difference between the dissimilar metals is the driving force for an accelerated attack on the anode member of the galvanic couple. The anode metal dissolves into the electrolyte, and deposit collects on the cathodic metal."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_corrosion

Pure water is non-conductive in the galvanic sense.
Until there are ions deposited or a charge applied, it is neutral.
Notice the key word in your sentence above......"and when two or more come into contact in an electrolyte, one metal acts as anode and the other as cathode. "

in an electrolyte..........."Electrolyte solutions are normally formed when a salt is placed into a solvent such as water"

in other words.....you NEED to dissolve a solute into the solution for it to become a carrier of ions. Until you turn the computer "on", the water IS non-conductive. Apples to oranges.

As I have been saying all along, the result of the galvanic corrosion or flaking of nickel is it's exposure to the underlying copper....copper ion then dissolves into the water setting up a galvanic reaction. Until that happens, there is no problem. The same holds true in your copper-aluminum example. Yes, it's a bad idea, but you first need to add the ions TO the water, the water has nothing to do with it except become a facilitator of the galvanic reaction.

Our discussion began under the idea that silver in distilled water would interact with nickel.....we are off topic.

Sure, water will cause conduction of electricity.....but that is not what we are talking about here. In a MB there are existing circuits, + and - in close proximity under the influence of existing current......flowing electrons. the ionic state already exists, the water has nothing to do with it.

Here's some science from MIT.........http://video.mit.edu/watch/does-water-conduct-electricity-8407/

 

[Justintoxicated]

Pure water is non-conductive in the galvanic sense.
Until there are ions deposited or a charge applied, it is neutral.
Notice the key word in your sentence above......"and when two or more come into contact in an electrolyte, one metal acts as anode and the other as cathode. "

in an electrolyte..........."Electrolyte solutions are normally formed when a salt is placed into a solvent such as water"

in other words.....you NEED to dissolve a solute into the solution for it to become a carrier of ions. Until you turn the computer "on", the water IS non-conductive. Apples to oranges.

As I have been saying all along, the result of the galvanic corrosion or flaking of nickel is it's exposure to the underlying copper....copper ion then dissolves into the water setting up a galvanic reaction. Until that happens, there is no problem. The same holds true in your copper-aluminum example. Yes, it's a bad idea, but you first need to add the ions TO the water, the water has nothing to do with it except become a facilitator of the galvanic reaction.

Our discussion began under the idea that silver in distilled water would interact with nickel.....we are off topic.

Sure, water will cause conduction of electricity.....but that is not what we are talking about here. In a MB there are existing circuits, + and - in close proximity under the influence of existing current......flowing electrons. the ionic state already exists, the water has nothing to do with it.

Here's some science from MIT.........http://video.mit.edu/watch/does-water-conduct-electricity-8407/

I don't see how we are off topic. You asked for more scientific proof and I posted the values, then you say it does not matter because distilled water isn't conductive in a galvanic sense. If you think straight distilled remains neutral over time then I'm not going to change your mind... Warning to others though, several people have used that argument before and ended up with a ton of corrosion using aluminum and copper and distilled water. I wouldn't run straight distilled in my car due to fear of corrosion and there is a reason people add antifreeze besides the anti-freezing properties. As for whether or not silver and nickle are safe, I have posted the numbers, while they are 1/2 the potential difference of aluminum and copper, they are still double the potential difference of copper and nickel alone. Everyone can use their own discretion. Personally I like to play it safe, and would do all copper or all nickle when possible, but I'm not afraid to mix them if needed. I do however use a copper based biocide instead of silver kill coil because it is SAFER from galvanic corrosion than silver coil when used in a loop with nickle.

I would suggest people read the post above about the breakdown of nickle on bitspower barbs as well, it wasn't flaking due to crappy EK plating it was corrosion at work.

 

[magoo]

Fair enough. I have never used a nickel plated waterblock, so I have no real world experience, but there's a fair body of information in the world that says silver and nickel are fine together in a watercooling system.
We agree to disagree.
Are automotive radiators copper or aluminum?
Is the heating coil in a car copper or aluminum?
The engine block?

I don't know. but I bet there's copper and aluminum. But no nickel or silver.