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coolant/hose for 50 below

B

best [486]

Limp Gawd
Joined
Aug 28, 2005
Messages
476
I'm working on a phaze-change-cascade-type-system cooling a water-cooling reservoir.
I want tubing/coolant that will withstand -50 celcious without cracking/freezing.
Any suggestions?
I'm trying to get it that cold because my NEO-4F's northbridge fried with air cooling
Thanks!
[wow! that was alot of big words for a 12-year-old]
 
best [486] said:
I'm working on a phaze-change-cascade-type-system cooling a water-cooling reservoir.
I want tubing/coolant that will withstand -50 celcious without cracking/freezing.
Any suggestions?
I'm trying to get it that cold because my NEO-4F's northbridge fried with air cooling
Thanks!
[wow! that was alot of big words for a 12-year-old]
Click to expand...

:cool:

1) Phaze is spelled 'Phase'.
2) Celcious is actually "Celcius".
3) There is no word 'alot'... it is sufficient to say "a lot".

Good luck with your system! :)
 
Josh_B said:
:cool:

1) Phaze is spelled 'Phase'.
2) Celcious is actually "Celcius".
3) There is no word 'alot'... it is sufficient to say "a lot".

Good luck with your system! :)
Click to expand...
LOOK AT THE 12 YEARS OLD PART
 
cascade... 12 years old.... hmmm...
do you plan to make it yourself or?
using cascade properly requires certain discipline... making one requires knowlege, skills associated and much safety measure as you are actually dealing with explosive gas usually. if you plan to build one... I suggest starting from single stage. I personally wouldn't let my 12 years old to play around with torches, gases, etc unless under supervision...
 
Sorry Josh, :(
and my dad helps me with some of the things just not with the computer part and some of the A/C stuff
 
patience, patience and more patience are needed for custom built, high-performance cooling solutions.

i don't have a lot of patience now, and i had even less when i was 12. being impatient and failing to set up proper safteys very nearly resulted in me burning down my family's house at the ripe old age of 21.

something to plan in advance: make sure that if one aspect of your cooling solution shuts down for whatever reason, everything in the computer and the cooling solution shuts down.

my biggest problem was that the fans on my rad shut down, and the heat pumps kept dumping waste heat into the coolant until it boiled and ruptured hoses. then things got really hot.

in your case, the concerns are a bit different, however you should plan ways to address them all in advance.

good luck. i think that your father is both cool and crazy for letting you mess with this stuff. (assuming that you really are 12, which i'm not taking ALL that seriously)
 
DFI Daishi said:
patience, patience and more patience are needed for custom built, high-performance cooling solutions.

i don't have a lot of patience now, and i had even less when i was 12. being impatient and failing to set up proper safteys very nearly resulted in me burning down my family's house at the ripe old age of 21.

something to plan in advance: make sure that if one aspect of your cooling solution shuts down for whatever reason, everything in the computer and the cooling solution shuts down.

my biggest problem was that the fans on my rad shut down, and the heat pumps kept dumping waste heat into the coolant until it boiled and ruptured hoses. then things got really hot.

in your case, the concerns are a bit different, however you should plan ways to address them all in advance.

good luck. i think that your father is both cool and crazy for letting you mess with this stuff. (assuming that you really are 12, which i'm not taking ALL that seriously)
Click to expand...

Absolutely right. Usually our cascade uses Ethylene. This gas is extremely flammable and don't like high temp. If for some reason
#1, 1st stage stops cooling be it fan on condenser or just wasn't tuned well enough or what not.
#2. 2nd stage keeps churning happily... now this gas reaches critical temperature at 9.5c. Critical pressure of 50.76 bar!!! Temp will climb as 1st stage is down. Pressure will build up build up... one of 2 thinks happens at this point.
#3a. It will break seal of compressor and thank god, you only killed a compressor instead of yourself.
#3b. It will rupture somewhere while pressure is high enough that the gas will auto ignite. This gas being extremely explosive will just explode most likely sending shards of components with extreme force and will catch fire if you didn't die from the shards.
yes, cascades are used in hospitals, etc for cryogenic reasons. However, these systems are designed profesionally and more importantly, maintained by professionals routinely and have many safety measures against disasters built in.
 
one of the more common heat transfer fluids in that range has been Fluorinert

however

its drawbacks for an enthusiast are substantial
first its viscosity is such that you basically can't "seal" against it and its typically plumbed in welded stainless steel, in addition to requiring special and expensive pumps. Early Cray computers employed it, many supercomputers still do, its even employed in spray cooling.
It comes in several different flavors (temperature ranges)

Generally when folks do cascade setups they go for direct die
like my old forum mate lardarse (Shamino)
 
a few moths back, i asked cooling god cathar about fluids for chilled fluid cooling, in conjunction with his high performance waterblocks.

one of the things that helps if you have a jet impingement style block, is if the fluid has a viscosity similar to that of water, at the system's predicted opperating temperature.

for temps down to -40, cathar suggested acetone, in a closed loop. provided that you select pump and hosing tollerant of those kinds of temps, that are also resistant to acetone, that might be a readily available, low cost solution.

acetone is poisonous, but you can smell it pretty easily, and it's nothing that will kill you instantly. need to use reasonable seals to keep the vapour in the loop, but compression fittings could probably do the job.
 
DFI Daishi Is denatured alcahol and glycol based coolant mix ok 45% alcahol 55% coolant
 
catkicker said:
DFI Daishi Is denatured alcahol and glycol based coolant mix ok 45% alcahol 55% coolant
Click to expand...
i really don't know. denatured alcohol usually has some iso in it, which cracks polycarbonate plastic almost instantly.

i don't know if low percentage iso will have the same effect over a longer period of time or what.it really depends on what you have int your loop.

what are you doing with your stuff, exactly?
 
another flamible option (and a thread that used to be located here ages ago)

r0ckstarbob's methanol findings
(Charts are long gone)
but the operating range will be good to about -23C when mixed with water
(its melting point unmixed being -97C) Ethanol (as mentioned above) has a melting point of -114.3 it also has a flash point that is slightly higher as well
13C as opposed to 11C for Methanol
 
jinu117 said:
Absolutely right. Usually our cascade uses Ethylene. This gas is extremely flammable and don't like high temp. If for some reason
#1, 1st stage stops cooling be it fan on condenser or just wasn't tuned well enough or what not.
#2. 2nd stage keeps churning happily... now this gas reaches critical temperature at 9.5c. Critical pressure of 50.76 bar!!! Temp will climb as 1st stage is down. Pressure will build up build up... one of 2 thinks happens at this point.
#3a. It will break seal of compressor and thank god, you only killed a compressor instead of yourself.
#3b. It will rupture somewhere while pressure is high enough that the gas will auto ignite. This gas being extremely explosive will just explode most likely sending shards of components with extreme force and will catch fire if you didn't die from the shards.
yes, cascades are used in hospitals, etc for cryogenic reasons. However, these systems are designed profesionally and more importantly, maintained by professionals routinely and have many safety measures against disasters built in.
Click to expand...

I have it all figured out. if any stage dies then it will sense it [dont know how yet] and shut off the computer. And I'll have a radiator with a valve system in the loop so then i can cut the power to the compressors and turn down the OC so i can still run the computer
 
so what exactly is your aim with this cooling? You said you want to get it that cold because your northbridge fried on air cooling....so are you planning to use this for just the northbridge? Or are you planning to use it for cooling the entire computer?

I ask because if you are planning on using this to cool just your northbridge you probably wont see much benefit between slightly sub ambient and 40 below.
 
best [486] said:
I have it all figured out. if any stage dies then it will sense it [dont know how yet] and shut off the computer. And I'll have a radiator with a valve system in the loop so then i can cut the power to the compressors and turn down the OC so i can still run the computer
Click to expand...
if you don't know how you're going to do it, then you don't really have it all figured out.

you can't necessarily use electrical draw to determine if a given stage is running properly or not, which eliminates the "easy way" of setting up the shutoff logic. i think that most likely leaves you with a number of temp sensors and assiociated logic. i don't imagine that it is going to be easy or fun to get this baby up and running.
 
There are pressure activated switches (relays). I suggest putting one in on every stage you make which will completely shut down the system. Only will be about $60 total for 2 or so of them. To be honest though, lemme ask you one single question.
Have you even built a single stage cooler yet?
 
The pressure switch is a good idea. no, i haven't built one before.I'm cooling the whole system [not just the NB] and I'm also trying to do this so people won't see me as a 12-year-old wannabe [ :mad: ] and for the cooling [massive OC in the future :D ]
 
You need to get a license to handle the better coolants to fill condensors IIRC. I would imagine that one would also need to be at least 16 (probably 18) to get such a license.

I suppose your father could do this for you, but still, I highly suggest you do your research before undertaking this project.

You may be better off buying a Vapochill or something of the like for the time being to get your feet wet (or chilled ;) ) before building your own phase change system from scratch. A lot of thought goes into building such systems, and no offense, but I doubt a 12 old could do it on his or her own.

If your father knows a lot about HVAC equipment and PC's, then you are in luck, but I sure couldn't have done this at 12 Heck I have my doubts in building one on my own at 20 while being an engineering major. I would definetly seek help.

It is harder to do than it seems, trust me.

But hey, prove us wrong and build this thing :cool:.
 
best [486] said:
The pressure switch is a good idea. no, i haven't built one before.I'm cooling the whole system [not just the NB] and I'm also trying to do this so people won't see me as a 12-year-old wannabe [ :mad: ] and for the cooling [massive OC in the future :D ]
Click to expand...

Lord. If you haven't built a single stage... start from there. You can reuse all parts to making cascade. And it is MUCH less dangerous than building a cascade or operating one. To get proper refrigerants, you not only need license but in case of cascade proper business to get ethylene. I doubt anyone in sane mind would sell young one such as yourself bottle of ethylene. If someone do please let me know so I can report the person off and make some handsome money on side.
For undertaking single stage, minimum budget if you don't have all the tools on toolside alone easily approaches over $1k. Lemme break it down for you.

1. Recovery machine - avg $250-300 on e-bay for used one. $700-900 brand new.
2. Recovery tank - $60-70. (In my case, I keep 3. One for R404, one for r402a, one for whatever contaminated gas is going to be in there)
3. Vacuum pump - avg $150 on e-bay for used one. $300-500 brand new.
4. Manifold gauge - $60-$150. I use 2 myself for different uses.
5. Nitrogen tank with nitrogen regulator - $200-250.
6. Swaging tool - $20-$150. I suggest getting non punching flare style one which is more expensive but much easier to use. I don't think most 12 years old will have enough strength to pull off punched swaging from 3/8" tubing.
7. Some way to braze joint,s etc. Minimum is MAPP torch running about $35. However, brazing evaporator with this is royal b*tch and oxy-acetylene setup will give much better job. I still use MAPP for pipe to pipe, etc to save gas cost. Oxy-acetylene setup with tank will start from $250-500.
8. Tube cutter. $10-20
9. The refrigerant. R404a - $220 or so. R402a - $260 or so (local shop quoted me $320 last time though) They don't sell it by small quantity on these popular refrigerant. You get 24lbs or 27lbs of it which is enough to build... too many systems.
10. Silver braze rod 15% - they sell by pound and it would be $35-45.
11. Silver braze solder 45% - 1 tray oz is good enough for more than one system. $15-16.

Now that was bare minimum tool to start off with to do it legally and properly. Let's get into what are helpful

1. Digital Vacuum gague. What manifold reads in vacuum is useless for triple evacing. $130-$180
2. Vacuum line shut off valve. $50
3. Oil pump for compressor oil change. $80-100
4. Electronic leak detector. $180-400
5. Pipe bender. $20-$90
6. misc stuff such as vise, etc. $0-$100 or so.

Now the parts.

1. Compressor $150-250 for these use. (for cheaper pricing search e-bay... they tend to sell only loud ass ones though)
2. Filter Drier $5-10
3. Condenser $50-100 for these use if you can find one with right size.
4. Fan...
5. Flexible suction line. People seem to charge about $28-60 depending on the type.
6. Access valves. $10 per pack of 5 or so.
7. 1/4 tubing $23 or so?, 5/16 tubing $30 or so?, 3/8 tubing $35 or so. Could be wrong by bit.
8. Metering device. Choose one.
a. Captubing - $10
b. CPEV + Accumulator = $100-$140
c. TXV + Receiver = $130-$180
9. Misc parts.

I am pretty darn sure I missed quite a few things here and there but that is the jest of it.
Got money saved up? (PS, parts price is only for single stage... cascade you probably want to double to triple the part cost)
 
Cascades arn't really suitable for day-to-day use. They're the top fuel dragsters of the overclocking world.
 
my dad has tools #1-7 and some old freon tanks [big 30-pound empties] I'll probably use R-12 or R134a [dad wants to get rid of R-12] and the oxy/acetelyne torch and brazing rods I can get compressors free from fridges/freezers and a/c [appliance store down street]. triple cascades [3 compressors] Are the dragsters.
 
best [486] said:
my dad has tools #1-7 and some old freon tanks [big 30-pound empties] I'll probably use R-12 or R134a [dad wants to get rid of R-12] and the oxy/acetelyne torch and brazing rods I can get compressors free from fridges/freezers and a/c [appliance store down street]. triple cascades [3 compressors] Are the dragsters.
Click to expand...

Good lord. Sounds like your dad can help you out. Now I suddenly feel much better :)
Still unless your dead has had experience working with cryogenic cooler (that is what cascade is), I suggest starting with single stage. It can later be reutilized for first stage or last stage of cascade after all and you will gain invaluable experience doing so.
There are babies that crawls first and their are babies that wants to walk first. One that learn to crawl first have much less chance of putting him/herself into danger. Same applies here too.
 
best [486] said:
[dad wants to get rid of R-12]
Click to expand...
Or better off sell it! That is some expensive stuff!
eek.gif
 
Jinu, you forgot to include an evaporator. This is one major part along with the crap load of insulation needed. The evaporator is the one part I'm having trouble finding and might stop my plans of a phase change system. Chilly1 charges $110 plus shipping.
Edit: I guess you could just rig something up though, since you're cooling a water loop.

Also, compressors from fridges wont work on a cascade. They cannot handle the pressures and loads. I don't think a fridge compressor would even work on a single stage, but you might be able to find one powerful enough.
 
mathot said:
Jinu, you forgot to include an evaporator. This is one major part along with the crap load of insulation needed. The evaporator is the one part I'm having trouble finding and might stop my plans of a phase change system. Chilly1 charges $110 plus shipping.
Edit: I guess you could just rig something up though, since you're cooling a water loop.

Also, compressors from fridges wont work on a cascade. They cannot handle the pressures and loads. I don't think a fridge compressor would even work on a single stage, but you might be able to find one powerful enough.
Click to expand...

Yes I did forget evaporator lol. I usually stock them in count of tens so don't remember it usually hehe.
Compressors are compresors. They all handle pressure and load. (within structure, usually the method of running compressor decide high back pressure, low back pressure not the compressor housing) You just will have it tuned for much higher temperature since capacity is lacking. for example vapochill XE uses DC compressors that must be rated like 1/8th 1/10th or so... these units has been modified to hold evap temp below 0..... Basically it is question of balance between capacity and temperature. Size of comrpessor basically adds more factor on each side till diminishing return hits. For current crop of cpu and heatload, 1/4hp is where diminishing return starts showing up rapidly. (1/3 will net you about 2 more c better, 1/2 will net you about 1 more c better from there, etc) Now, if you put more heatload, the delta changes again...
 
I'm probably going to have 2 ,1/2HP compressors and i'm going to make a condenser to fit the inside front of my case that i'm going to make it [the case] will be: 22'' High, 10" wide and 20" Deep with a lot of 120MM fans [2 on the top of the panel [in front of reservoir] and 4 on the bottom . the back will have air holes
 
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