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Considering Watercooling...

S

Strykar

Limp Gawd
Joined
Apr 21, 2005
Messages
299
Mostly just because of heating issues in my room, the PC is on 24/7 and maintains a nice ambient temp, but it heats my rooms up considerably. I do not overclock atm, although my BH-5 is asking for it.. the main thing stopping me seems to be the idea that my room would get even hotter if I overclocked, which I do not want at all.

Do you think that watercooling would be a wise solution to solve these issues? I have considered selling the BH-5 and jumping to 2 GB of ram for the added headroom as I play WoW constantly and only want to run at 1680x1050 with most if not all settings maxed.

Cliffnotes:

Room is very hot, but PC temps are not too bad.
PC is quiet but would prefer it to be silent (Have an XP-90 with a Panaflo and Vantec Stealths all around)
Would like to OC, but do not want room to be even hotter.

Alternatives:

Sell 512MBx2 of BH-5 and get 1024MBx2 of memory
Get better room cooling (currently just a ceiling fan)
 
i'd go for the alternatives.

what makes you thinking that going to water will make your room temps change? The CPU is going to dump exactly the same amount of heat into the water as it does into the air currently... and that heat in the water will be dumped back into the air via the watercooling radiator.
 
yes - consider the laws of thermal dynamics... your room is a "system" and the computer will generate just the same amount of heat but will actually shed it more quickly with watercooling, thus raising your room temps faster... but not higher.. or lower... the only thing which will benefit from watercooing are your cpus/chipsets/gpus/etc...

Sounds like what you need is a mini airconditioner. :)
but if you want a more quiet PC, watercooling is a nice way to cool and quiet your rig. :)
 
What the others said.

Getting water cooling will just make the cpu more efficient at heating your room. The whole point of water cooling is to get the heat off the processor as quickly as possible.

If you want a cooler room, Cool N' Quiet, shutting off your PC at night, and an air conditioner is the way to go. Overclocking will cause your computer to output more heat, so yes, it will heat your room more.

The only thing you'll gain out of watercooling is cooler system components, better overclocking capability, and a quieter computer.
 
pretty much has been said

except that with watercooling youd have a centralized point (the radiator) from which, were it outside of the case and next to an exit point (window, central air return vent) could be dumped outside of the room more efficiently than the current alternative of allowing the heated air from the case to mix with the room air and then be exhausted

you could be "concentrating" the heat for easier disposal
but failing actually getting rid of it, there isnt a whole lot of point
 
That's a good point... you can funnel that hot "exhaust" air with some drier flex hose out of your room... or onto your feet in the winter. :)
 
which in the case of ducting can also be done with an air solution
(slightly less effcient with less concentration)

you can also duct from and to and AC for a quasi phase change solution
(air being the intermediate)
less efficient at heat transfer than direct die or chip chiller of course
 
revenant said:
yes - consider the laws of thermal dynamics... your room is a "system" and the computer will generate just the same amount of heat but will actually shed it more quickly with watercooling, thus raising your room temps faster... but not higher.. or lower... the only thing which will benefit from watercooing are your cpus/chipsets/gpus/etc...

Sounds like what you need is a mini airconditioner. :)
but if you want a more quiet PC, watercooling is a nice way to cool and quiet your rig. :)
Click to expand...

The room temps wont really raise any faster, because the computer is still producing heat at the same rate as it was with an air cooling solution, and all of that heat is going into the air at the same rate. Heat in = Heat out, at least once the system reaches equilibrium. Actually since water has such a high specific heat the room might actually heat up slower since a lot of the latent heat will be absorbed by the water until there is a sufficient deltaT to dissipate all the heat being generated.
 
Erasmus354 said:
The room temps wont really raise any faster, because the computer is still producing heat at the same rate as it was with an air cooling solution, and all of that heat is going into the air at the same rate. Heat in = Heat out, at least once the system reaches equilibrium. Actually since water has such a high specific heat the room might actually heat up slower since a lot of the latent heat will be absorbed by the water until there is a sufficient deltaT to dissipate all the heat being generated.
Click to expand...

well - watercooling allows more heat to be shed faster than with air... all my idle temps and load temps are way down, so it's definitely work faster and more efficiently than with air... and specific heat of water aside (yes, it's not the best coolant, but oh well) it's seems to be shedding the heat pretty quickly also- the proof is in the low load temps.. so where do you think that heat is going? (in a hurry) :)

Anyways, it will be such a minor diff that no one would notice... I only said that because with a thermometer which had .000 units you might notice it. lol
 
revenant said:
and specific heat of water aside (yes, it's not the best coolant, but oh well)...
Click to expand...

actually... water is the best coolant out there... nuclear reactors use a variant of it to cool them done..
 
Oh geez... let's pick apart my posts...lol. the best practical coolant out there is a metalic liquid gallium blend, which NanoCoolers uses in their new heat-pipe-liquid metal coolers... it's got 65x the ability to conduct heat as water... water is just decent, abundant, cheap, and safe... so it's a logical choice for many...

EDIT: http://www.techpowerup.com/?3105

I read an article on this company and the starter and they are going to make "any fit" cpu and gpu coolers soon with this tech on it... sometimein 2006 I would imagine to see them emerge. They won't be cheap, either.
 
ok - let me rephrase that earlier comment, and say water works well, but there are other mediums which are better. but they are somewhat impractical at the moment.. but not for too long. I should have just gone the up is half full from the get-go. :)

EDIT: I read this article:
http://www.nanocoolers.com/newsroom_detail.php?news_id=16

and was remembering this section when I said that:

"But then "we saw a more immediate opportunity" in the computer industry, said Ghoshal, 43, who formally worked on mainframe cooling systems at IBM's Austin Research Laboratory.
The liquid metal absorbs and releases heat much more efficiently than water. In addition, the pump has no mechanical parts and is "orientation free" - ideal for laptops because the position of a computer doesn't matter."

and I doubt these will replace watercooled systems - but it should give the folks to don't want to go H2O somewhere to go for better cooling options.
 
The one benefit of your computer heating up the room: winters coming soon, so you can turn the heat down :D

Everything else has already been said about whether or not to w/c.
 
revenant said:
ok - let me rephrase that earlier comment, and say water works well, but there are other mediums which are better. but they are somewhat impractical at the moment.. but not for too long. I should have just gone the up is half full from the get-go. :)

EDIT: I read this article:
http://www.nanocoolers.com/newsroom_detail.php?news_id=16

and was remembering this section when I said that:

"But then "we saw a more immediate opportunity" in the computer industry, said Ghoshal, 43, who formally worked on mainframe cooling systems at IBM's Austin Research Laboratory.
The liquid metal absorbs and releases heat much more efficiently than water. In addition, the pump has no mechanical parts and is "orientation free" - ideal for laptops because the position of a computer doesn't matter."

and I doubt these will replace watercooled systems - but it should give the folks to don't want to go H2O somewhere to go for better cooling options.
Click to expand...


well...

I'll counter with a flourinert spraycooling phasechange :p


http://www.engr.wisc.edu/news/headlines/2005/Jul11.html
http://www.physorg.com/news5087.html
http://www.spraycool.com/flash/WP_F1.pdf
http://www.spraycool.com/flash/WP_F2.pdf
http://www.vita.com/cool/pres-2004/1430-tilton.pdf


SprayCoolingr.jpg


that chart predates the new development which triples heat transfer BTW ;)

of course now we have to compare the two emerging technologies, but may lack the hard figures to do so :p
 
J-Pepper said:
actually... water is the best coolant out there... nuclear reactors use a variant of it to cool them done..
Click to expand...
a variant of it? :p thats funny... nuclear reactors don't use a "variant" of water, they just use water... pure water, de-ionized... its still water lol
 
i'm pretty sure they use hard water?? :confused: but it's been a while since I read about it so my general knowledge on this may be slighty off! :D
 
revenant said:
well - watercooling allows more heat to be shed faster than with air... all my idle temps and load temps are way down, so it's definitely work faster and more efficiently than with air... and specific heat of water aside (yes, it's not the best coolant, but oh well) it's seems to be shedding the heat pretty quickly also- the proof is in the low load temps.. so where do you think that heat is going? (in a hurry) :)

Anyways, it will be such a minor diff that no one would notice... I only said that because with a thermometer which had .000 units you might notice it. lol
Click to expand...

It's because the water can take away the amount of heat your processor is producing at a lower temperature than an air heatsink can. It is not that it is removing the heat quicker. If your processor is creating 100W then your watercooling solution is removing 100W and an air cooling solution would remove 100W, end of story. They both remove the same amount of heat, you cant remove more only less, and at some point you stop removing less and remove the 100W (once you reach equilibrium temps).
 
SpoogeMonkey said:
The one benefit of your computer heating up the room: winters coming soon, so you can turn the heat down :D

Everything else has already been said about whether or not to w/c.
Click to expand...
i was dissapointed when i discovered that my prescott with folding@home running cant keep my room warm at night, my northwood did it no problem, and with my athlon-xp i had to run my air conditioner durring the fall and then keep the windows open in the winter
i expected my prescott to make more heat then my old northwood, guess i was wrong, a 1.7v 3.2c at 3.6 ghz aparently produces more heat then my prescott, makes me wonder what temps i would get with the xp-120 setup i had on my northwood, the northwood had a xp-120 and panaflo M1A and it still got to 65C load 50C or so idle
 
i'm pretty sure they use hard water??
Click to expand...

Pepper: FYI-Nuclear Reactors sometimes use HEAVY water for certain things.
Heavy water uses a hydrogen that has had a neutron added. This compound is known as Deuterium. The common formula for Heavy Water is D2O.

And now back to the post: I wonder how well THAT would work for cooling in my case...*ponders*
 
Ghent915 said:
Pepper: FYI-Nuclear Reactors sometimes use HEAVY water for certain things.
Heavy water uses a hydrogen that has had a neutron added. This compound is known as Deuterium. The common formula for Heavy Water is D2O.

And now back to the post: I wonder how well THAT would work for cooling in my case...*ponders*
Click to expand...

Ahhh... so my general knowledge was a bit iffy... i knew it was along thhe lines of H... water! :p
They use it because any stray atoms from the nuclear reactor that manage to pass the shell gets stopped pretty quickly by the heavy water. Correct?
one more q... I thought Deuterium is an Isotope not a compound?
 
The compound is not known as Deuterium. Deuterium is the Hydrogen isotope that has an extra neutron. Heavy water is composed of Deuterium and Oxygen.
 
Thank you both for correcting my error in terminology. I'm notorious for flip-flopping names and whatnot.

As for the ORIGINAL question, before we all ran off on our various tangents.
Remember, energy can neither be created, nor destroyed. Any sort of cooling system works by either moving the heat from one point to another (water cooling, air cooling, ect), or changing heat energy into another kind of energy (I THINK this is what Phase Change would be...thats a black art to me, so I know nothing of it). (And yes, this doesn't take into account any sort of energy to heat transfer devices like pelt's ect, either)

All the heat produced by your computer will be dumped out into your room using both air and water cooling. Getting the heat out of your room is another problem entirely. One rather interesting idea, proposed by my roommate, was to exterior mount your rad into your A/C and Heating system duct in your room. Since that will be pushing a good bit of air, and air that is ALWAYS ambient (if you leave the fan running), it might just work. The only issue would be to find a pump with enough head to push it.

-Ghent
 
Erasmus354 said:
It's because the water can take away the amount of heat your processor is producing at a lower temperature than an air heatsink can. It is not that it is removing the heat quicker. If your processor is creating 100W then your watercooling solution is removing 100W and an air cooling solution would remove 100W, end of story. They both remove the same amount of heat, you cant remove more only less, and at some point you stop removing less and remove the 100W (once you reach equilibrium temps).
Click to expand...

I agree - energy cannot be created or destroyed by any natural means - it just is moved around. :) I was just saying that with watercooling, the heat produced by your processors is xfer'd into your room faster than with conventional heatsink air cooling... the fact that your processors run at lower temps is proof! cooler operating temps means less time for that heat to build up, thus it's getting away from your processors (and into your room) faster... not more of it, in the sense you intepreted it, apparently, I meant it onlyin reference to the fact that the heat "gateway", if you will, was "larger" (with watercooling), thus a greater amount of heat was allowed to move from cpu --> room in a given time peroid... but in the end, it's all a wash... :) anyways... that's what I was trying to convey. sorry for more OT - lol...
 
revenant said:
I agree - energy cannot be created or destroyed by any natural means - it just is moved around. :) I was just saying that with watercooling, the heat produced by your processors is xfer'd into your room faster than with conventional heatsink air cooling... the fact that your processors run at lower temps is proof! cooler operating temps means less time for that heat to build up, thus it's getting away from your processors (and into your room) faster... not more of it, in the sense you intepreted it, apparently, I meant it onlyin reference to the fact that the heat "gateway", if you will, was "larger" (with watercooling), thus a greater amount of heat was allowed to move from cpu --> room in a given time peroid... but in the end, it's all a wash... :) anyways... that's what I was trying to convey. sorry for more OT - lol...
Click to expand...


You apparently didn't understand what I said. Whether you are aircooling or watercooling the heat gets into your room at the same rate. The reason why watercooling provides lower temperatures is because the water can remove 100W of heat better than a heatsink can. The heatsink requires a much larger deltaT to remove 100W of heat than a watercooling solution does. In an air cooling situation you have a small amount of time for the heatsink to heat up to a sufficient delta T to dissipate 100W of heat. Once that happens you are dissipating 100W of heat into your case and out into your room. Metals cant hold that much heat so it doesn't take long for things to heat up.

A water cooling solution does much the same thing. The water heats up until the delta T is sufficient to dissipate 100W of heat (in the radiator). However water can hold much more energy than a heatsink, so it actually takes longer for a watercooling solution to dissipate the full 100W than an aircooling situation.

Just looking at the temperatures and saying "Wow watercooling is lower it must be removing the heat faster" is wrong. It isn't removing it faster, they are both removing it at the same rate, watercooling is simply more efficient and can remove 100W at a lower temperature than an air cooling solution. The room heats up just as fast in either solution, or maybe even SLOWER for a watercooling solution.
 
your sentence "The reason why watercooling provides lower temperatures is because the water can remove 100W of heat better than a heatsink can." is all I was trying to convey.

I guess what you are trying to say is like the 10lb wieght falls at the same speed as a 1lb wieght... right? 9.8m/sec^2 has the same pull on them regardless of their mass. I would think that if an operation is more effecient at removing heat from a system (moving it into another system), that the overall room temp (second system) would raise more quickly tho... because it spends less time building up in the cpu/sink etc... but anyways...
 
also remember that some of that energy is stored in the water too, and water can hold quite a bit.
 
Thanks for clearing up my confusion all, I dont have a way to vent out heat unfortunately, ill try to get a mini ac, but currently my only sources of cool air are a ceiling fan and air a vent for air conditioning that is not on very often unfortunately (don't pay the A/C bills, so its out of my hands)

I would use Cool 'n Quiet, but doesn't that hurt gaming performance quite a bit? Be nice if there were a tool to restart your computer in Cool 'n Quiet mode if inactive for say, 30 minutes..

Any reccomendations for moving heat through this room without jacking up the bills? A super charged ceiling fan perhaps? lol..

I just hate the idea of being stuck in these conditions
 
J-Pepper said:
also remember that some of that energy is stored in the water too, and water can hold quite a bit.
Click to expand...

that is true, it's like a buffer in that way! like the extra copper and heat pipe parts of a standard air cooling sink... good point! and it has to xfer the energy (calories I guess) to the rad and then that to the air... so there is quite a bit of xfering going on. :)
 
i say go for it, i've been water cooling over 5 years now, and i have yet to regret it.
 
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