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Conroe debunked

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ToastMaster said:
What I find really interesting, from Intel's website, is this:

"Intel Smart Memory Access includes an important new capability called "memory disambiguation," which increases the efficiency of out-of-order processing by providing the execution cores with the built-in intelligence to speculatively load data for instructions that are about to execute before all previous store instructions are executed."

They're already looking to what is possibly going to be their greatest performance threat - Cell. With Sony using it in the PS3 (having worked with IBM and others on it), and I've heard AMD is looking into it with IBM (as the two are close partners), it could very well be that Intel is positioning Conroe to attempt to fight Cell, as Cell is known to be very efficient, as long as it's programmed for in-order processing (far more effficient than x86-based systems, if I recall correctly).
Click to expand...

They mentioned this in some higher-tech gaming magazines a few months ago. The Cell is effectively 9 cores on a single die, a very small one in comparison to even 65nm, they reported it to only get a little warm, which is quite intresting seeing as (I believe, could be wrong) it was stated that it might come in 3GHz flavors. They're first implementation is in PS3, then it could be all kinds of portable devices, and even computers. Quite intresting, but there are a lot of details missing to even get a clue of how these will be used.
 
Oh, and I just wanted to say how awesome it is that this thread has remained cordial, and not become relegated to a fan boy screaming-fest.

oh, and for more interesting news:

(granted, it's theinquirer): Intel revises dates for Woodcrest, Conroe and Merom

So Woodcrest is being pushed up to June, Conroe in July, and Merom in August.

While I honestly wished that Conroe would be in June, I'm pretty excited still, since this means that general wide-scale availability will be either in later July or in August, so I'll easily have enough money to fully do my upgrade. Then, with Merom in August, if Apple can simply drop it into their current designs with the MacBookPro, I can have a Merom-based laptop as well. :D
 
Emission said:
They mentioned this in some higher-tech gaming magazines a few months ago. The Cell is effectively 9 cores on a single die, a very small one in comparison to even 65nm, they reported it to only get a little warm, which is quite intresting seeing as (I believe, could be wrong) it was stated that it might come in 3GHz flavors.
Click to expand...
Cell in 90nm is large at 221mm^2, according to Sony's ISSCC 2005 presentation (and 235mm^2 for the enhanced SPE revision). Power was moderate, estimated at 50-80W @ 4GHz, 1.1v. For comparison, the X2 with 2 x 1MB cache is 199mm^2 at 90nm and the Presler with 2 x 2MB cache is 162mm^2 at 65mn. The 90nm Cell is pretty big.

Cell will be shrunk to 65nm of course. I've seen shrink estimates of 125mm^2, which is much better.
 
Emission said:
They mentioned this in some higher-tech gaming magazines a few months ago. The Cell is effectively 9 cores on a single die, a very small one in comparison to even 65nm, they reported it to only get a little warm, which is quite intresting seeing as (I believe, could be wrong) it was stated that it might come in 3GHz flavors. They're first implementation is in PS3, then it could be all kinds of portable devices, and even computers. Quite intresting, but there are a lot of details missing to even get a clue of how these will be used.
Click to expand...
one thing to keep in mind is that 8 of those cores are barely cores at all from what i can tell, and are very small. i have a big picture of the die plot sitting around somewhere...
 
In reply to ToastMaster's comment, a toast to 29 pages of cooirdinated discussion :D .

Anyway, the magazine only ever stated its minor details, it didn't really seep too much into specifics (lets face it, not all console gamers get an orgasm at the site of these amazing specifications, frankly, they could care less as long as it performs well). So yes, it looks like Sony is a new player in the Processor scene, and it will be quite intresting seeing as it shows for amazing specs. What im really wondering is, will these "Cell's" ever reach the consumer as a socketed processor platform....? And how will they stack up to Conroe, both in price and performance.
 
ToastMaster said:
Oh, and I just wanted to say how awesome it is that this thread has remained cordial, and not become relegated to a fan boy screaming-fest.

oh, and for more interesting news:

(granted, it's theinquirer): Intel revises dates for Woodcrest, Conroe and Merom

So Woodcrest is being pushed up to June, Conroe in July, and Merom in August.

While I honestly wished that Conroe would be in June, I'm pretty excited still, since this means that general wide-scale availability will be either in later July or in August, so I'll easily have enough money to fully do my upgrade. Then, with Merom in August, if Apple can simply drop it into their current designs with the MacBookPro, I can have a Merom-based laptop as well. :D
Click to expand...

Cnet and Infoworld are reporting the same thing as the inq so i'll say it's true

http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-6065708.html
http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/04/27/77838_HNintelrestructure_1.html
 
Emission said:
So yes, it looks like Sony is a new player in the Processor scene, and it will be quite intresting seeing as it shows for amazing specs. What im really wondering is, will these "Cell's" ever reach the consumer as a socketed processor platform....? And how will they stack up to Conroe, both in price and performance.
Click to expand...
Cell as a PC processor isn't interesting. The math capabilities of the SPEs are great for specialized workstations, but the integer core is nothing special. Cell's in-order SMT PPE core at 3-4GHz is much slower than mainstream desktop CPUs. With Intel (Conroe) and AMD (65nm higher speed X2 models) both introducing 65W desktop processors, Cell looks very bad for PC use since it doesn't have a higher performance per watt or even plain high integer performance.

Single thread performance on the PPE at 3.2GHz has been described as twice as fast as the 733MHz P3/Celeron core in the original XBox, which is pretty horrible considering the slow CPU FSB (133MHz) on the XBox 1. 2 threads on a 4GHz PPE would likely be inferior to a even an Athlon XP 2400+.
 
Well, thanks for informing me of that, I haven't personally researched it, and it didn't pop up at review sites as anything special, kina wondered lol.
 
PureBooYah said:
Cnet and Infoworld are reporting the same thing as the inq so i'll say it's true

http://news.com.com/2100-1014_3-6065708.html
http://www.infoworld.com/article/06/04/27/77838_HNintelrestructure_1.html
Click to expand...

I'm also glad this as stayed peaceful and flameless!

Many of us have always posted that July would be the launch month :) Woodcrest is the only real surprise.

WOW! A little Honesty.

Intel lost market share in channel and consumer retail areas for planning reasons; it did not build enough chipsets in the second half of 2005, he said.

Intel lost market share in servers for competitive reasons: "We did not meet the needs of the marketplace or our competitor had a better product than we did," Chandrasekher said.
Click to expand...
 
Emission said:
In reply to ToastMaster's comment, a toast to 29 pages of cooirdinated discussion :D .

Anyway, the magazine only ever stated its minor details, it didn't really seep too much into specifics (lets face it, not all console gamers get an orgasm at the site of these amazing specifications, frankly, they could care less as long as it performs well). So yes, it looks like Sony is a new player in the Processor scene, and it will be quite intresting seeing as it shows for amazing specs. What im really wondering is, will these "Cell's" ever reach the consumer as a socketed processor platform....? And how will they stack up to Conroe, both in price and performance.
Click to expand...

Such a horrible, horrible pun. :p

Yeah, I'm not too up-to-speed with the specifics of Cell. I've heard a bit here and there from people, some computer engineers who are friends of mine. It seems like it could perform very well if specially programmed for, although they're uncertain how likely it is that it could thus find a home in home pcs.
 
Well they said this would be considerably harder to program for, so I wouldn't find it suprising if it dosn't find a home in the home pc market.
 
Serge84 said:
Until Intel allows inspection of all boxes in testing and benching. Then I won't beleave one world intel says of a chip that can easaly be fabricated. Photoshop anybody. Or perhaps AMD vs AMD. Bogus BIOS settings. Rigged software hardware. Anybody can fake a bench. Dua, its a matter if you can beleave it or not.
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As somebody who has used Conroe, you have no idea what you are talking about. What good would it do Intel to fake these benchmarks only to release the product and have it fail miserably? It wouldn't. we are not talking about marginal differences here between Conroe and AMD's chip. These are HUGE differences and even if they are "skewed" by 5% from early hardware (call this a margin of error) it's still a wide gap between the two. Really, take off your tin foil hat.

Serge84 said:
Its quite primitive to have to change your motherboard just because your motherboard can't support the bloody cpu every 3 months. All 939's can suppot all CPU's for the socket for the past 3 years. No intel can support one for more then 3 months. :rolleyes: The wonders of progress, arn't they sweet.
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You are over exaggerating just a tad bit there. :rolleyes: There is about a year to a year and a half difference between generations of chipsets. The "performance" versions always come out later than the "value" ones which will put them (performance versions) closer closer to the next gen stuff. But even at that... with some of the changes in processor tech lately are you really surprised that some of these require a new chipset?

Really man... take your tin foil hat, !!!!!! ass back to the AMD forum. Start this discussion there and have all the 13 year olds sing you praises. :rolleyes:
 
Hey Serge84;


http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=97395


No one has a Consor, but, plenty of people are getting samples of Conroe. Believe that.

Also, I agree with Poncho, remember, it never pays to Lie. Ever! The Truth always comes out sooner or later. Enron, ect. Intel doesn't want to follow that path.

4 Generations behind? Are you serious? 4 Generations behind what? Got a link to back that claim up? I mean a real link, not a blog, with factual evidence? Last I heard, 65nm tech was pretty cutting edge. Where are the 65nm AMD chips?

Have a nice day.
 
That blog has no credibility whatsoever considering it's contents. Oh can someone please delete that flame inciting post.
 
Warmonkey said:
4 Generations behind? Are you serious? 4 Generations behind what? Got a link to back that claim up? I mean a real link, not a blog, with factual evidence? Last I heard, 65nm tech was pretty cutting edge. Where are the 65nm AMD chips?
Click to expand...

You know, if Intel was 4 gens behind that only makes AMD look worse. Think about it. If Intel's, 4 generation out of date, hardware can compete with AMD the way they do.... what does that make AMD? 3 Gens behind? LOL.... which may make sense since the few percentage (in benchmarks) that AMD is ahead does show a slight difference (1 generation?) whereas the asswhooping that Conroe is going to bring is a hugh difference (3 generations). So yea.... I kinda like that argument. LMAO.
 
I ask for evidence, factual non bias evidence. And you link AMD zone., A press release at that.

Ok Serge84, time for a crash course in basic communication and English.

Evidence: Data and documentation that support inferences or conclusions.

Bias: "A bias is a prejudice in a general or specific sense, usually in the sense for having a predilection to one particular point of view or ideological perspective. However, one is generally only said to be biased if one's powers of judgment are influenced by the biases one holds, to the extent that one's views could not be taken as being neutral or objective, but instead as subjective. A bias could, for example, lead one to accept or deny the truth of a claim, not on the basis of the strength of the arguments in support of the claim themselves, but because of the extent of the claim's correspondence with one's own preconceived ideas.

A systematic bias is a bias resulting from a flaw integral to the system within which the bias arises (for example, an incorrectly calibrated thermostat may consistently read – that is 'be biased' – several degrees hotter or colder than actual temperature). As a consequence, systematic bias commonly leads to systematic errors, as opposed to random errors, which tend to cancel one another out.

In practice, accusations of bias often result from unacknowledged favouritism on the part of a critic or judge, or indeed any person in a position requiring the careful and disinterested exercise of arbitration or assessment. Any tendency to favour a certain set of values naturally leads to an uneven dispensation of judgment. It may also be noted that, if a person were to take their own preexisting view as a priori balanced without acknowledging their own personal inclinations, any person or organization that disagrees with their views is likely to be viewed as biased regardless of that person or organization's actual efforts at balance. It may be observed that bias is, in a sense, reflexive, unacknowledged or unrecognised bias potentially leading to its apprehension (with or without good reason) in others."

Objectivity: "In science, objectivity is usually considered as the result of the observance of the scientific method by the scientific community, including a contradictory debate and agreements on certain paradigms."


Quotes from Google Definitions. They won't vary much when used in a scientific context.


Intel not have money? Stop talking out your ass, its stinking up the thread:

"Intel First-Quarter Revenue $8.9 Billion
• Operating income $1.7 billion
($2.1 billion excluding share-based compensation)
• EPS 23 cents
(27 cents excluding share-based compensation)
• $585 million in cash dividends
• $2.9 billion used to repurchase 138.5 million shares
SANTA CLARA, Calif., April 19, 2006 – Intel Corporation today announced first-quarter revenue of $8.9 billion, operating income of $1.7 billion, net income of $1.3 billion and earnings per share (EPS) of 23 cents. Excluding the effects of share-based compensation, the company posted operating income of $2.1 billion, net income of $1.6 billion and EPS of 27 cents."
http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20060419earnings.htm

Note, it is illegal and unethical to misrepresent earnings reports. So, don't call this a lie too.
 
Just chill, Hard will test both chips and rate it against each other. I trust their judgement more than here-say.

Benchs don't lie, bang for the buck hasn't failed me yet in processors.
 
Serge84, make a new post if you want to respond to my pointed discussion.

Also, You have yet to provide sources for your material, so...from this point on, the discussion is moot, speculative, and in general.....juvenile.

If you would like to continue a worth while discussion in the thread, please adhere to the general principles of scientific debate.
 
Donnie27 said:
Say what you like LOL!, I'm not touching that one.
Click to expand...

I only read few lines, and then the ending, to much of a hassle and the words I read, didn't seem to have anything to do with this reality.

Terra - There is always the hope that he simply was uninformed :)
 
his posts were deleted, good... no need to mention him again...

I



**off topic** does anyone else see a good opportunity to buy intel stock now that this NGMA stuff is out? I've been thinking... you only buy a stock if you expect good company growth and profitability.... and the Woodcrest and Merom in particular will give Intel good processors to grow their marketshare and sales.... might translate into some good money?
 
brucedeluxe169 said:
**off topic** does anyone else see a good opportunity to buy intel stock now that this NGMA stuff is out? I've been thinking... you only buy a stock if you expect good company growth and profitability.... and the Woodcrest and Merom in particular will give Intel good processors to grow their marketshare and sales.... might translate into some good money?
Click to expand...

Not really. I just finally sold off my Intel stocks earlier this week, they were continually loosing and not really expected to go up much anytime soon. Oddly my AMD stock has been slowly but surely gaining, it's just too bad I didn't get it on it when it was down to $3 a few years ago.
 
Terra said:
I only read few lines, and then the ending, to much of a hassle and the words I read, didn't seem to have anything to do with this reality.

Terra - There is always the hope that he simply was uninformed :)
Click to expand...

To make a point I have to stray off Topic but will come back, bare with me?

There's is that hope for this guy but I doubt it. There are a whole group of folks who love to hate Intel and another group of groupies of these folks who follow them. Many times, just to be a part of something. I knew a crap load of them at "The Commport". They also bleed over into other forums as well. Some guy didn't like ATI so he joind the nVidia Fans when they talk about AMD or Intel, flip a coin for whichever.

I love when my buddies call me bandwagon jumpper, as consumers, that's what in the hell we all should be. Blindly backing/supporting either company makes them lazy and slows down innovation, keeps prices high and I don't mean stock holders or employees or family members there of. I liked the X2 and their twin Opterons until the prices spiked. So I settled for a 3500+ instead.

Back on topic, I'm planning a Conroe system because it seems like the best choice. If and when AMD puts out another kick-ass product, I will plan for buying it just as I'm doing with Conroe now. I'm NOT going to come here and make excuses why Conroe got its ass kicked or why I'll not buy any better AMD processor at that time.

Simple reply to the debunked comment is that it takes more that one piece of software to debunk in the first place.
 
PureBooYah said:
lol, i put him on my ignore list long ago...all he posts is AMD fan boy flame-bait
Click to expand...

Yes, it seems like a waste doesn't it? I'm biased makes no bone about it but my bias-ness will swing. I have posted a crap load of links to make my points. He even linkes to other biased opinions LOL!
 
brucedeluxe169 said:
his posts were deleted, good... no need to mention him again...

I



**off topic** does anyone else see a good opportunity to buy intel stock now that this NGMA stuff is out? I've been thinking... you only buy a stock if you expect good company growth and profitability.... and the Woodcrest and Merom in particular will give Intel good processors to grow their marketshare and sales.... might translate into some good money?
Click to expand...

I would wait untill they release Conroe . After the QT income results there not going to be good I see Intel slipping to $17- $18 range than buy.
 
Terra said:
Serge84:

1.) Please learn to use paragraphs.

2.) Welcome to the real world: Anandtech - Intel Core Duo: AOpen i975Xa-YDG to the Rescue

Intel wins every single benchmark.
And this being with a 32 bit mobile CPU vs 64 bit AMD Opteron.
Conroe will only INCREASE the preformance seen here...

Terra - Reality bites...
Click to expand...

one quick note Terra - I don't think the comment concerning a 32 bit CPU vs. 64bit CPU is required, as from those benchmarks I believe it was all 32 bit software? Thus, the fact the Opteron supports 64 bits is mute.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.
 
I certainly agree the Yonah benches are nice. It is also certainly clear the benches are botched. Did anyone else notice the memory latency? Or how about bandwidth? Or what about the board?

It just goes to show, that people will latch on to anything that shows there own point of view.
 
duby229 said:
I certainly agree the Yonah benches are nice. It is also certainly clear the benches are botched. Did anyone else notice the memory latency? Or how about bandwidth? Or what about the board?

It just goes to show, that people will latch on to anything that shows there own point of view.
Click to expand...

Um, while the higher latency of the DDR400 with the Opty 165 does decrease performance slightly, it's a generally small decrease, I'd say maybe a couple of percentage points at most.

I don't see how bandwidth would be an issue for either.

And they used what is quite obviuosly the best desktop board available for Yonah, with what I'd consider the best board available for Athlon 64. So once again, not a proper arguement.

Even with those few extra percentage points, it wouldn't make much of a difference, and Yonah would be on top.
 
Compare the results they got for the AMD setup, with other commonly available results... They are on the low side. There are AMD results available now that own what they show.... In my opinion those results are stacked. Google provides answers for all.

You can say it doesnt matter, but when Intel gets repeatedly cought stacking benches.... There is a big problem with that. You can say that it isn't Intel, it is Anand... But I'd say it is Intel's money, hence it is Intel...
 
For you to say Anand is a Intel drown is crossing the line fella. If anything that is a AMD biased review site. We are talking about the most recent yonah review correct this weeks.

You link to other reviews that show AMD the way you want . @ 2.8 ghz. and lets do some comparing just for shits and giggles. Top of the line X1900xt's running Xf . I want to see those reviews . Don't flash a smile and runn away and hide.

We want links to AMD x2's running x1900's in Xf and core speed of 2.8 Ghz. Done by legit review sites. Come give us links Please!
 
duby229 said:
You can say it doesnt matter, but when Intel gets repeatedly cought stacking benches.... There is a big problem with that. You can say that it isn't Intel, it is Anand... But I'd say it is Intel's money, hence it is Intel...
Click to expand...

I know you didn't just call Anand Intel biased.... :eek: Now that's "latching on" to anything..... :rolleyes:

Mike
 
duby229 said:
Compare the results they got for the AMD setup, with other commonly available results... They are on the low side. There are AMD results available now that own what they show.... In my opinion those results are stacked. Google provides answers for all.

You can say it doesnt matter, but when Intel gets repeatedly cought stacking benches.... There is a big problem with that. You can say that it isn't Intel, it is Anand... But I'd say it is Intel's money, hence it is Intel...
Click to expand...

2.5 3-3-6 1T at GamePC as well. Yet, wouldn't have made any difference.

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=coreduo&page=1

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=91792

See the ones on Air, not water or Frozen, hehehehe!

http://www.iamxtreme.com/
Click T2600 vs FX60 link?

Though it might be a little hard for you to accept, AMD just got pretty much caught and in some cases spanked=P They don't really kill Presler and Cedar Mill like they did with Prescott and 5xx P4's.

There's no telling how much money Intel would have made had they really supported Dothan and Yonah with real Platforms, not just V//V. But I'm glad I waited on Conroe.
 
mzs_biteme said:
I know you didn't just call Anand Intel biased.... :eek: Now that's "latching on" to anything..... :rolleyes:

Mike
Click to expand...


Read what I said. You can say it is Anand.... But it isn't Rather Intel.
 
duby229 said:
Read what I said. You can say it is Anand.... But it isn't Rather Intel.
Click to expand...

Not just this statement but with everything you've said so far. So you're saying Intel is paying all of these folks to LIE? Does that include Victor Wang, Fugger, HKPC, Freecableguy and all? So, did AMD pay them to LIE before Conroe and Yonah?

For the record, Victor Wang has some of the best Athlon64/X2 Scores around, so does FCG. The Apache Web Server Test at GamePC are also some of the best around and Yonah represents the first time a Hammer based processor of any kind has lost any part of that benchmark.
 
Merom is looking pretty good, cant wait to get my hands on it. The mobile platform looks to be sizing up. We might eventually be buying laptops instead of desktops for all our purposes. Thats how I see it anyway :)
 
PureBooYah said:
lol, i put him on my ignore list long ago...all he posts is AMD fan boy flame-bait
Click to expand...
Wait, did you just call Terra biased? :eek:
Terra is the most unbiased fan-boy-hater on these forums.
 
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