computer vs HT speakers

[Donnie27]

That was not my intention either, it was just poor timing.
Your post was not there when I started typing the reply.. I got busy with something else and when I submited it and saw your reply that said you were mistaken I was like OH CRAP.
Granted that is my fault for not previewing the reply but you did kinda provoke the smartass in me.


Pwned by teh reciver

Stuff happens.

I don't think anyone ever said you was... the only I was questioning was the 5.1 over coax thing.

That is one of the things that prompted the line I posted about how soundcards mimic receivers.
CMSS = Prologic.
CMSS2 = Neo6.
Stereo X2 X3 = All channel stereo
EAX environments = Prologic evronments.
THX console = distance setup.
And so on...

Well, while in the middle of eating crow, I might have over reacted as well. I'd rather be honest and have egg on my Face than lie to save face. Yes I was "Pwned by teh reciver". But in a way, that's a good thing, the receiver does sound good.

My MegaWorks 650's died about two weeks ago. The fault was a bad wall socket (found out too late). Two weeks after the warranty ran out, oh crap! So for two weeks I'm playing with something new. Up until that time my receiver was used only for 24bit/96KHz Stereo.

I disagree with one line in your post, this one-->"EAX environments = Prologic evronments", that's wrong. EAX 1 and 2 are Pro Logic, EAX 3 = 5.1 and EAX4 extends that to 7.1. Now I have played with this long enough to be 100% sure about it. Of course through Analog outs. Just as YOU SAID, the other cables were connected and I had the receiver set to switch auto between the two, it didn't. Now I do it manually.

EAX3 and 4 puts the player in the game sound wise. The player's and the Game World's sound are dead on!=P This is why I finally figured the other was Matrixed. When Barney was behind me talking the Receiver was still in Analog, not digital but it was working as it was supposed to. First Person Shooters are the only games where this might matter. Anyone with Audigy cards setup worth a dang will tell you the same.

Donnie

 

[MadSkills]

EAX 3 is amazing in UT 2004. I'm pretty sure it uses EAX 3 and not 4. I think only a few games like Call of Duty, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, and tomb raider use EAX 4.

EAX 3 and above are DISCRETE CHANNELS. And the postioining is excellent.

 

[Donnie27]

EAX 3 is amazing in UT 2004. I'm pretty sure it uses EAX 3 and not 4. I think only a few games like Call of Duty, Jedi Outcast and Jedi Academy, and tomb raider use EAX 4.

EAX 3 and above are DISCRETE CHANNELS. And the postioining is excellent.

You got it and that's what other who have tested will say as well.

See the comments made about E-MU vs. Audigy?

http://www.warp2search.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=21184

Professional E-MU uses Audigy cheap? chip!
=>Posted by: Anonymous.
=>Monday, December 13 @ 11:22:42 CET
While this may not be anything new for some of you, here's a nice photo of what's under the sticker on professional E-MU sound cards.

We know the ADC and DAC are just as important if not more. That's what makes an Envy24 HT a $100+ card and an Envy24PT a $25 card.

Donnie

 

[BO(V)BZ]

You got it and that's what other who have tested will say as well.

See the comments made about E-MU vs. Audigy?

http://www.warp2search.net/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=21184

Professional E-MU uses Audigy cheap? chip!
=>Posted by: Anonymous.
=>Monday, December 13 @ 11:22:42 CET
While this may not be anything new for some of you, here's a nice photo of what's under the sticker on professional E-MU sound cards.

We know the ADC and DAC are just as important if not more. That's what makes an Envy24 HT a $100+ card and an Envy24PT a $25 card.

Donnie

Yea, it's fairly common knowledge that the Emu1212 and the Audigy2's use the same chip. Now, if we could just get creative to rename the driver files so they don't overwrite eachother when they install, and cause your machine to BSOD... that would be an achievement! Like it's so hard to make two sets of drivers that use differently named files...

 

[Donnie27]

Yea, it's fairly common knowledge that the Emu1212 and the Audigy2's use the same chip. Now, if we could just get creative to rename the driver files so they don't overwrite eachother when they install, and cause your machine to BSOD... that would be an achievement! Like it's so hard to make two sets of drivers that use differently named files...

No Need to , hell, I agree Many of use Ex A3D users suspect Creative didn't let Aureal's tech go to waste. Some guys talked about the Headphone tricks this summer. I don't remember which site though.

Drivers, sorry I've installed at least 30 Audigys. The Audigy 1's had flaky drivers. I still don't like the A1 drivers to this day. But I've had ZERO problems with A2 or A2 ZS=P In fact, they have better drivers than nVidia or VIA IMHO!

Their Auto-update works good enough for newbies.

Donnie

 

[ranger0900]

ok now that you guys have used almost 2 full pages talking about all of that... you want to sum it all up and answer these questions:

1- Ok so maybe spidf actually works... maybe it doesn't.... But for all practically purposes shall I use spliters from the outs to a DVD direct input?

i.e. front L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers front L/R (RCA like in-port)
back L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers back L/R (RCA like in-port)
and finally a triple connector from Center, Sub, Rear Center 1/8" connector to the recievers Sub in (yellow) , Center in(yellow), Rear Center in. (red)this is the cable?


2- again shoudl i just buy the most expensive receiver I can get my hands on that has the DVD individual ch. input?

3- what am I looking for in bookshelf speakers? Yea give me suggestions, but what am I looking for as in specs? Active or Passive? How many watts? Any Special Decoding they need to be certified for? Certain size that just sounds better? Oh and I went and listened to some speakers, whatever Klipsche does with thier speakes, sounds incredible to my ears. After I Listened I went and picked up my dad's old Klipsche speakers (circa 1980ish really he couldn't remember). They sound incredible.

4- same as above but about sub's

5- same as above but about rear

THANKS!

ps. if i get all this info together would you like me to type it all up, so you can put it in that guide you all were working on???

 

[MadSkills]

1.) Donnie and MisterX agree that the Audigy series can only output 2 channel audio through s-pdif. If you want more channels than that, you have to use analog outs.



2.) Never buy the most expensive thing lol. Go with Onkyo, Pioneer, or Yamaha. If you have the cash, get Denon. Yamaha in particular is known for the best amplification in a receiver. Onkyo and Pioneer provide value. Pioneer often has video processing. Denon has all the pluses of Yamaha but with better styling, better processing, and more cutting edge features.


3. & 5.) Your front, center, and rear channels should ALL be made by the same manufacturer, preferably the same model. BECAUSE, you want the timber and frequency response to be the same for all the speakers, WITHOUT having to use equalization.

A lot of ppl advocate dipolar speakers for rears, but all that does is create fuzzy, dispersed sound. Do you want pinpoint sounds or do you want wishy washy sound?

Also, try to place all the tweeters at ear height, even if you have to buy stands. And try placing the speakers in an equadistant circle from your listening position. Also, try to have the same amount of arc between all the speakers.

For more information on this, try reading Widescreen Review and NOT being convinced that all 5 speakers should be the same.


If you don't follow this advice, it won't matter how much you spend b/c the speakers can't position sounds properly if they're aimed all over the room in haphazard order.


4.) Subs: once again, placement, don't put it in a corner b/c it just rattles the drywall. You hear less bass and more boominess. Put it next to the screen to link it to the sounds that you are hearing. Ppl SAY bass is mono but you can still detect its direction sometimes.

 

[ranger0900]

ok so for speakers just try to find something that sounds right to my ear, and that is in my budget? and use all bookshelf speakers then or whatever model I end up using as it will help with the true SS effect?

was my statement correct in how i connect my Audigy 2zs to my reciever?

i.e. front L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers front L/R (RCA like in-port)
back L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers back L/R (RCA like in-port)
and finally a triple connector from Center, Sub, Rear Center 1/8" connector to the recievers Sub in (yellow) , Center in(yellow), Rear Center in. (red)

*** Was just looking at Yamaha's recievers and they only have 5.1 direct in. So in that case there would be no point in getting a 6.1 or 7.1 reciever? TRUE OR FALSE*****


thanks for the clarification on recievers and sub

 

[Donnie27]

ok now that you guys have used almost 2 full pages talking about all of that... you want to sum it all up and answer these questions:

1- Ok so maybe spidf actually works... maybe it doesn't.... But for all practically purposes shall I use spliters from the outs to a DVD direct input?

i.e. front L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers front L/R (RCA like in-port)
back L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers back L/R (RCA like in-port)
and finally a triple connector from Center, Sub, Rear Center 1/8" connector to the recievers Sub in (yellow) , Center in(yellow), Rear Center in. (red)this is the cable?


2- again shoudl i just buy the most expensive receiver I can get my hands on that has the DVD individual ch. input?

3- what am I looking for in bookshelf speakers? Yea give me suggestions, but what am I looking for as in specs? Active or Passive? How many watts? Any Special Decoding they need to be certified for? Certain size that just sounds better? Oh and I went and listened to some speakers, whatever Klipsche does with thier speakes, sounds incredible to my ears. After I Listened I went and picked up my dad's old Klipsche speakers (circa 1980ish really he couldn't remember). They sound incredible.

4- same as above but about sub's

5- same as above but about rear

THANKS!

ps. if i get all this info together would you like me to type it all up, so you can put it in that guide you all were working on???

Even if I had the money I'd not buy the most expensive Receiver to connect to a computer=P Something middle of the road will do IMHO! As a matter of fact, I I listened to my speakers before I bought them. I tested different sets as well. I have old front and rear speakers, nothing is matched but they sound good. I'd also look for rear speaker that only need a little wattage to spit out sound.

The Sub needs to match your need for bumpage. The simple FACT is that not many folks like the same in music tone settings. Some folks like Hard and Heavy, some like it soft and tingly, yet others like it somewhere in-between.

I'm an old Army Guy and heard some great systems in the Audio Club (musical part of the Post Exchange in Germany) I loved the Klipsch, including the small Herseys.

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

1.) Donnie and MisterX agree that the Audigy series can only output 2 channel audio through s-pdif. If you want more channels than that, you have to use analog outs.



2.) Never buy the most expensive thing lol. Go with Onkyo, Pioneer, or Yamaha. If you have the cash, get Denon. Yamaha in particular is known for the best amplification in a receiver. Onkyo and Pioneer provide value. Pioneer often has video processing. Denon has all the pluses of Yamaha but with better styling, better processing, and more cutting edge features.


3. & 5.) Your front, center, and rear channels should ALL be made by the same manufacturer, preferably the same model. BECAUSE, you want the timber and frequency response to be the same for all the speakers, WITHOUT having to use equalization.

A lot of ppl advocate dipolar speakers for rears, but all that does is create fuzzy, dispersed sound. Do you want pinpoint sounds or do you want wishy washy sound?

Also, try to place all the tweeters at ear height, even if you have to buy stands. And try placing the speakers in an equadistant circle from your listening position. Also, try to have the same amount of arc between all the speakers.

For more information on this, try reading Widescreen Review and NOT being convinced that all 5 speakers should be the same.


If you don't follow this advice, it won't matter how much you spend b/c the speakers can't position sounds properly if they're aimed all over the room in haphazard order.


4.) Subs: once again, placement, don't put it in a corner b/c it just rattles the drywall. You hear less bass and more boominess. Put it next to the screen to link it to the sounds that you are hearing. Ppl SAY bass is mono but you can still detect its direction sometimes.

That's a very good way to sum it up!

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

ok so for speakers just try to find something that sounds right to my ear, and that is in my budget? and use all bookshelf speakers then or whatever model I end up using as it will help with the true SS effect?

was my statement correct in how i connect my Audigy 2zs to my reciever?

i.e. front L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers front L/R (RCA like in-port)
back L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers back L/R (RCA like in-port)
and finally a triple connector from Center, Sub, Rear Center 1/8" connector to the recievers Sub in (yellow) , Center in(yellow), Rear Center in. (red)

*** Was just looking at Yamaha's recievers and they only have 5.1 direct in. So in that case there would be no point in getting a 6.1 or 7.1 reciever? TRUE OR FALSE*****


thanks for the clarification on recievers and sub

Yes you guys have the correct hook up now!

Donnie

 

[HRslammR]

i'm ever so glad i switched to my HT speakers. KLH av-55s + fortissimo III + Yamaha HTR-5630 = great sound for a cheap cost!

 

[ranger0900]

again is there a point to getting a reciever that as more than 5.1? as i will be watching dvd's and playing games and listening to music... the whole deal basically, but if the individual input only allows 5.1 what is the point in getting like a 6.1 reciever?

and how many watts do you need in a reciever? or does that even matter?

for example i buy say some max 400 watt speakers but reciever says 100wattmax/ch. does that mean i don't get the maximum output??

 

[Deleted member 72990]

"4.) Subs: once again, placement, don't put it in a corner b/c it just rattles the drywall. You hear less bass and more boominess. Put it next to the screen to link it to the sounds that you are hearing. Ppl SAY bass is mono but you can still detect its direction sometimes."

i argue this.... if you have a very high powered sub, like 250 W RMS +, then it might be good to not put it in the corner because you can probably get enough volume out of it to not need assistance. I have a velodyne CHT-12 (170 W RMS), and it can get very loud, but only when in a corner. When not in a corner, i have to turn the gain up on the reciever pretty high to match my mains, and then it doesnt sound good at all because there is no headroom. So isntead i have it corner loaded with the receiver gain at 0db and the knob on the back set to 3/4. this seems to give the best overall impact.

also, about your first point, the audigy will send more than 2 channels out on S/PDIF if its a format like DTS or DD such as in a movie.

and yes subs are mono. the other time it sounds directional is when the crossover is set too high, then its easy to localize it. but its still a mono signal.

 

[Donnie27]

again is there a point to getting a reciever that as more than 5.1? as i will be watching dvd's and playing games and listening to music... the whole deal basically, but if the individual input only allows 5.1 what is the point in getting like a 6.1 reciever?

and how many watts do you need in a reciever? or does that even matter?

for example i buy say some max 400 watt speakers but reciever says 100wattmax/ch. does that mean i don't get the maximum output??

I wish it were that easy! It is way too complex. Just for starters, they don't measure anything a like. I've heard Denon and Onkyo receivers advertised as 60W per channel kill so called 100W Per Ch like my Pioneer, Sonys, Technics and even Yamahas. But mine was New and marked for clearance at $139 and $169 with a 3 year service plan from Circuit City, hard to beat.

I'd personally really rather have a 6.1 or even 7.1 for my Den but 5.1 seems good enough for me, in my computer Room. But that's a personal issue again and even 7.1 might not be enough for others.

Demo as much of this stuff as possible and by all means, get what sounds best to you. I like what the other guy said about going out and hearing the best stereo you can find. Try to take a familier piece of Music with a very wide range of sounds with you. After you've hear the best, test the rest to see which one you like to buy. I like the Pioneers for the same reason my buddy thing they suck go figure. I think the VSX-D814 is a very nice place to start. If I were going to spend more money than that, I'd easily go Onkyo.

http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/538299888
http://www.vanns.com/shop/servlet/item/features/543049005

Even the Sony 7.1 sounds good to me. Many sites have better prices than this one. not being lazy can save you money.

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

ok so for speakers just try to find something that sounds right to my ear, and that is in my budget? and use all bookshelf speakers then or whatever model I end up using as it will help with the true SS effect?

was my statement correct in how i connect my Audigy 2zs to my reciever?

i.e. front L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers front L/R (RCA like in-port)
back L/R 1/8" connector to the recievers back L/R (RCA like in-port)
and finally a triple connector from Center, Sub, Rear Center 1/8" connector to the recievers Sub in (yellow) , Center in(yellow), Rear Center in. (red)

*** Was just looking at Yamaha's recievers and they only have 5.1 direct in. So in that case there would be no point in getting a 6.1 or 7.1 reciever? TRUE OR FALSE*****


thanks for the clarification on recievers and sub

Yes that is the correct way to connect it and FALSE, NO, there is a very good reason to get 6.1. I'd rather have 7.1 and not need it now, than don't have it want it later. That same Red jack is used for the Rear Center that turns 5.1 into 6.1. You don't need this connected for 5.1.

Your Jacks would look like;
Red - White = Front L&R for 2 and 2.1
Red - White = Rear L&R for 4.1 and Side for 6.1 (note, I skipped 5.1 because they don't on this plug.
Yellow - Red - White = Sub, Front Center on 5.1 and Red for rear Center in 6.1 mode. In 7.1 Mode, the two rears are Mono so it is like 6.1 with two rear Centers.

I've already been fooled by DTS Neo6 through the Digital out. Analog for me from now on, sheesh! Again, this is real discrete separation for Games that support EAX3 at least and yes many do.
Like MistX said though DTS is Pro-Logic like.

Donnie

 

[MadSkills]

ok so for speakers just try to find something that sounds right to my ear, and that is in my budget? and use all bookshelf speakers then or whatever model I end up using as it will help with the true SS effect?

yup. exactly. try to purchase all the same, except perhaps the center speaker, as you will want to place that on the TV, and bookshelfs aren't made to be turned sideways. Ideally, you woould purchase a speaker line that has a matched center channel.


Also, make sure they're all the same. Too many ppl spend a bunch of cash buying tower speakers for the front and wimpy , wishy washy surrounds. Yeah, your front channels are great, but your surrounds probably can't be heard over them anymore, and the timber won't be quite the same. Dont' be fooled, stores sell a lot of these packages but they are not going to create as immersive a sound as a set of fully matched speakers.

Think of it this way, you need matched speakers for true stereo, so why should it be different for true surround? Why should the nazgul sound fuzzy and mono directional behind me, then become a pinpoint directional sound as it flies onto the screen and into the front channels?


For your receiver questions:

Amplificatoin: if you purchase Yamaha or Denon, you're guaranteed powerful amplification, a little moreso with Denon. If you buy Pioneer or Onkyo, don't be fooled that just b/c they have higher wattage specs that they blow away the competition, they are known to fudge numbers a little more. they are still quality products.

Surround processing 6.1 etc: We're in the age of 7.1 surround sound. Ideally, you want something that cna do at least a rear back channel, meaning 6.1, just so you have the feature later. If you are a big spender, I know that Denon and newer Onkyo models are upgradeable to some extent, which gives you some future proofing for when the HD DVD's come out with their new sound codecs.

 

[GodsMadClown]

Regarding wattage,

One does not need high wattage for nearfield listening in a small room, a situation that would apply to the vast majority of computer settings.

Remember the application here, folks.

 

[figgie]

"4.) Subs: once again, placement, don't put it in a corner b/c it just rattles the drywall. You hear less bass and more boominess. Put it next to the screen to link it to the sounds that you are hearing. Ppl SAY bass is mono but you can still detect its direction sometimes."

i argue this.... if you have a very high powered sub, like 250 W RMS +, then it might be good to not put it in the corner because you can probably get enough volume out of it to not need assistance. I have a velodyne CHT-12 (170 W RMS), and it can get very loud, but only when in a corner. When not in a corner, i have to turn the gain up on the reciever pretty high to match my mains, and then it doesnt sound good at all because there is no headroom. So isntead i have it corner loaded with the receiver gain at 0db and the knob on the back set to 3/4. this seems to give the best overall impact.

also, about your first point, the audigy will send more than 2 channels out on S/PDIF if its a format like DTS or DD such as in a movie.

and yes subs are mono. the other time it sounds directional is when the crossover is set too high, then its easy to localize it. but its still a mono signal.

no no no no

the subs worst enemy IS infact corners. They are called standing waves. Kills bass like Jeffrey Dahmer. Corner loading will only compound problems with standing waves ESPECIALLY in the lower octaves. There is a reason for corner traps

 

[Donnie27]

no no no no

the subs worst enemy IS infact corners. They are called standing waves. Kills bass like Jeffrey Dahmer. Corner loading will only compound problems with standing waves ESPECIALLY in the lower octaves. There is a reason for corner traps

What about Down Firing Subs?

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

yup. exactly. try to purchase all the same, except perhaps the center speaker, as you will want to place that on the TV, and bookshelfs aren't made to be turned sideways. Ideally, you woould purchase a speaker line that has a matched center channel.

Surround processing 6.1 etc: We're in the age of 7.1 surround sound. Ideally, you want something that cna do at least a rear back channel, meaning 6.1, just so you have the feature later. If you are a big spender, I know that Denon and newer Onkyo models are upgradeable to some extent, which gives you some future proofing for when the HD DVD's come out with their new sound codecs.

Dead on Mad Skills, dead on! When I first came here, someone made a comment about a Dirty little secret. It was made to seem like the Sub out didn't work. Now we know it was a case of some folks who didn't follow that old rule, RTFM. Here a sweet little secret, Audigy2 ZS can shift the Speaker response the device settings control panel, yes the results are easy to hear.
Example; You change the Rear Speaker setting to perform like Back/Rear or side speakers. In 6.1 Mode you can disable side-surround and set all 3 to reproduce only rear sounds. This same setting for 5.1 also creates a Phantom Center between the rear speakers. This works with computer based speakers and connected to a Receiver. On a reciever, these affects are more pro-nounced.

Donnie

 

[Deleted member 72990]

no no no no

the subs worst enemy IS infact corners. They are called standing waves. Kills bass like Jeffrey Dahmer. Corner loading will only compound problems with standing waves ESPECIALLY in the lower octaves. There is a reason for corner traps

then why does my velodyne hit solidly down to 25 Hz on a sine wave test when in the corner, but anywhere else it needs significant gain on the receiver to get there?

i have my crossover set to 40Hz btw..

 

[BO(V)BZ]

Virtually every guide I've read recommends corner loading subs for best results also. You get a 6dB boost from the nearby walls, which certainly helps out. The other good option is placing it nearfield, like directly behind you, but this doesn't work for me at least. I'm getting a pair of subs to replace [augment maybe?] my current PB2+, and I plan on putting one in each front corner. The danger there is cancellation, but with the included equalization soft/hardware, it shouldn't be too big of a deal.

Also, Dipoles are popular BECAUSE of their dispersion. Many people enjoy their rear soundfield for movies widened by the use of dipoles. I've not much experience with them, but I certainly wouldn't call the effect 'smeared' or 'muddy,' just dispersed