computer vs HT speakers

[ranger0900]

What I have noticed over the past few months of reading this site, speciffically in this forum is that a large number of you use Home Theater speakers, instead of computer specific speakers.

Is this true or is this just a mistake on my part?

a second question if you say you do use HT speakers: Do you really get better sound with say some $200 set of speakers and a nice ($200-300 reciever)?

I am just interested, and am tring to figure out if this is a path I want to take.

 

[Mister X]

Yes

Yes

I would if I was you.

 

[ranger0900]

ok so I have my Audigy 2 zs Plat. on its way. I assume a good reciever would be next on the list, then some speakers?

suggestions?
amp: open to anything really
speakers: explain what is the best of the best, wheither active or passive is better, how man watts should I be looking for?

budget: no one piece over say 450 or 500 bucks, if i do this, and I probably will as I am preey crazy about sound and music, I will be doing this over the next few months buying stuff as I go.

 

[jyi786]

You can start out with just 2.1, then upgrade later to surround sound.

Athena AS-B2
Onkyo TX-SR501 or equivalent
HT Sub, Cerwin Vega, or others.

This should fit in your $500.00 range.

 

[ranger0900]

ok so next I am reading alot of forums about how to connect your audigy to your reciever.
do I either:
1: take the 1/8" to L/R rca cables and plug then in the correct port (i.e. the DVD seperate channel one)
2: use optical output to optical input?
3: or other?

and if I wanted to buy online where is a good reliable place? otherwise I'll just go to like Best Buy or wait and shop around at Mister Money.

 

[Mister X]

Yup...you can use either method to connect your card to the receiver.
The downside is if you use a Coax SPDIF cable you will only get two channel audio from games and other stuff that is not already encoded in a multichannel digital format.

As far as reputable online vendor go there are thousands of them. Were do you want to start?

One place to take a look at is Ecost.

Here is one of their current deals (and it is also a very nice entry level receiver)
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/ecsplash/shop/detail.asp?dpno=496061

 

[Treyshadow]

If you are crazy about sound, I would suggest you go and demo some of the more reputable Hometheater brands available in your area. Specifically speakers, because these are the things you will bring the biggest benefit. Then you can tell us whether you like a bright, warm, or somewhere in between sound.

Brands like Paradigm, PSB, B&W, KEF, Monitor Audio, and Definitive Technologies can all be listened to in my local area (Houston). Try and find a dedicated Hometheater or home audio store. Listen to their high end stuff and see what good really is. Then make your way down to the sub $450 stuff and find what sounds closest to the high end stuff.

As for me and for my computer I like a slightly bright sound on the computer. I also do not like buying twice. I would go with Axiom M3ti and a pioneer VSX-1014TX for the receiver.

 

[BossNoodleKaboodle]

It all depends on the specific set of HT vs PC speakers you're talking about.

 

[SilverMK3]

To continue with what everyone above me has already said, get a receiver and a decent pair of bookshelf speakers to start, then later add a center, sub, and surrounds.

Receiver
Make sure you get a reciever with 6ch discreet RCA inputs so that you can still get surround sound when gaming; you can also get a digital SPDIF cable if you want your receiver to decode movies or process 2channel sound from your computer. I just recently got a Pioneer VSX-D814-S and am very happy with its performance.

Speakers
Like someone above me already recommended, the Athena AS-B2's sound great and are usually a pretty good deal. They're made in Toronto so you won't need to worry about build quality. I got the Athena Point 5 MK II surround package and again, am very happy with the performance.

You might have to do some bargain-hunting to keep the costs below that of a computer speaker package, but you'll be happy with the results if you do it right. And remember, like the salesguy kept reminding me on Boxing Day: "You'll forget how much you paid for it in a couple of weeks and all you'll be left with is this [receiver], You might as well get what you really want while you're here.".

 

[MadSkills]

Questions:

1.) But isn't the sound from a home theater receiver gong to be inferior to that of a PC sound solution using EAX? Wouldn't it have fewer simultaneous voices than EAX allows, and wouldn't it be lacking reverb and occlusion?

2.) Also, since most games only come with a two channel codec and an EAX implementation for surround, doesn't that mean that you're not really going to have discrete channels, but matrixed surrounds?

I've never used such a set up, so I'd honestly like to know.

fFinally, one consideration is that PC speakers, while otherwise inferior, are designed for positioning closer to the listner, while home theater speakers are designed for farther sweet spot ( where the waveform reaches flat response). Second, the speakers you mention are usually larger and harder to position equadistantly from the listener.

 

[Eric1285]

Someone already suggested it, but the Onkyo TX-SR501 is an excellent budget receiver. You can pick up a refurbished one from ecost for like $130. For a sub, you can't go wrong with a Velodyne VX-10, which you can also get for about $130-150 shipped from www.6ave.com. I currently use both of these in my setup, and am looking for a pair of nice bookshelf speakers. I happen to like really bright speakers, so I'm looking at Klipsch speakers right now...I'll probably pick up a pair of RB-35's within the next week. I would go give the B&W 602's a listen, because I heard those a few weeks ago and they sound amazing. If only they were brighter...

 

[Mister X]

Lets use the Onky TX-SR501 as an example here.

1.) But isn't the sound from a home theater receiver gong to be inferior to that of a PC sound solution using EAX? Wouldn't it have fewer simultaneous voices than EAX allows, and wouldn't it be lacking reverb and occlusion?

Nope ... remember the receiver will just play what the card sends it so you simply let the card handle the EAX thing just like you would with a PC speaker system.

2.) Also, since most games only come with a two channel codec and an EAX implementation for surround, doesn't that mean that you're not really going to have discrete channels, but matrixed surrounds?

If you are into matrixed surround then the 501 has 7 different preset surround modes as well as prologic 2 (cinema and music) and DTS Neo 6 (cinema and music)

IMO the receiver does a much better job of matrixing a stereo source then your sound card does.
Not to mention it is more versatile.

fFinally, one consideration is that PC speakers, while otherwise inferior, are designed for positioning closer to the listner, while home theater speakers are designed for farther sweet spot ( where the waveform reaches flat response). Second, the speakers you mention are usually larger and harder to position equadistantly from the listener.

Again, the receiver can handle this via the internal speaker distance programing system.

 

[GodsMadClown]

Again, the receiver can handle this via the internal speaker distance programing system.

I'm not quite sure that the SRTX501 can handle this sort of processing on the analog multichannel inputs. Be that as it may, it is only a matter of making the appropriate adjustments in the soundcard settings. That is, assuming the appropriate soundcard settings are available. Anyway, if they aren't that would be Creative's fault and time to upgrade to a new soundcard.

 

[Mister X]

I'm not quite sure that the SRTX501 can handle this sort of processing on the analog multichannel inputs.

I am absolutely positively sure the TX-SR501 will allow that function with the analog multichannel inputs .

And if my camera wasn't borked I would take a pict. for you

Regardless you can do the same thing with the THX console in the Adigy2 ZS drivers.

Ever notice how the features in most sounds mimic the features found in a good receiver?

 

[jyi786]

I am absolutely positively sure the TX-SR501 will allow that function with the analog multichannel inputs .

And if my camera wasn't borked I would take a pict. for you

Regardless you can do the same thing with the THX console in the Adigy2 ZS drivers.

Ever notice how the features in most sounds mimic the features found in a good receiver?

The TX-SR501 can handle this? I didn't know that. Although I'm sure the SR501 is not much different than the SR500, I thought it was just the volumes that it could control. But I may be wrong.

 

[Donnie27]

The TX-SR501 can handle this? I didn't know that. Although I'm sure the SR501 is not much different than the SR500, I thought it was just the volumes that it could control. But I may be wrong.

I was going to post but MisterX already said it. The same upgrade made from 500 to 501 is just as Pioneer did with 811 through 814, I have the 711 that was also updated to the 712. Anyway, they pretty much streamline the settings and made them easier to use. Not to mention Pioneer added a few WATTS. Onkyo is on my list for my next purchase. But the 1014 is awsome!

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage...1&id=1077628262918&skuId=6372169&type=product

Though not an Onkyo or some $2000 receiver, it gives them a run for the money. Best Buy had one Open Box for $325 and on sale for $449.

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

Yup...you can use either method to connect your card to the receiver.
The downside is if you use a Coax SPDIF cable you will only get two channel audio from games and other stuff that is not already encoded in a multichannel digital format.

As far as reputable online vendor go there are thousands of them. Were do you want to start?

One place to take a look at is Ecost.

Here is one of their current deals (and it is also a very nice entry level receiver)
http://www.ecost.com/ecost/ecsplash/shop/detail.asp?dpno=496061

Aweeee but many Games support EAX and do play in 5.1 through the Coax to a Receiver, if my VSX-D711 can do it, then any that uses DACs can do the same.

The correct setting to output Games in 5.1 when using the Digital Coax is turn off CMSS, reset Digital in the THX control panel to 5.1 and 48bit from the default 96Hz, at least on my Pioneer it works in 5.1 for almost any games that supports at least EAX2.0 thought 3 works perfectly. You can not use the Coax Cable while the Analog cables are connected for some settings.

To that other guy, the EAX 3 and 4 Game support is DVD like Discrete and did in real time with lower latency than Sound Storm doing bypass. EAX 3 and 4 is NOT like Progic.

Pioneer 711
Digital Decoding and Processing

Crystal Digital Signal Processing
DTS 5.1 Surround Decoding
Dolby Digital 5.1 Surround Decoding
Dolby Pro-Logic II Music & Movie Surround Decoding
96kHz/24-Bit Digital to Analog Conversion

5 Advanced Surround Modes for 2Ch
Expanded 5.1
6-Channel Stereo
Music
Movie
Virtual Surround Back
Midnight Mode

Donnie

 

[MadSkills]

Donnie:

if what you are saying is correct, this means that full EAX 3.0 & 4.0 features are available to a receiver through coax, which is excellent.


To MisterX:

I appreciate what you are say8ing about Dolby PL II and other matrixing techniques. they are good to have. But just a point of information: no matrix technique is going to sound as good as discrete.

And no receiver's speaker distance correction is going to change the actual physical properties of that driver to make it sound just as good at a distance and position it was not designed for. What it is doing is going through the DSP and modifying certain frequencies. That is not what I would call "pure audio."

We are not at the point yet where DSP's can negate the need for properly positioned speakers and proper discrete channel sound mastering. Good surround audio is not created by magic in the receiver.

 

[Donnie27]

Donnie:

if what you are saying is correct, this means that full EAX 3.0 & 4.0 features are available to a receiver through coax, which is excellent.

At least EAX3, I don't have a 7.1 receiver to test.

Donnie

 

[BO(V)BZ]

Donnie:

Are you positive you aren't just setting your receiver to matrix out the channels, or its actually using the analog connections? I've never heard of any way, other than soundstorm to do this, and I'm skeptical [no offence]

BTW, which Audigy card do you use?

 

[Donnie27]

Donnie:

Are you positive you aren't just setting your receiver to matrix out the channels, or its actually using the analog connections? I've never heard of any way, other than soundstorm to do this, and I'm skeptical [no offence]

BTW, which Audigy card do you use?

Yes, I'm not using Matrixed or Pro Logic. I demoed this to a friend by starting up Half Life 2, I went to a part of the Game near the end where Barney is talking to Freeman. I turned my back and the sound moved to the rear speakers or behind me as they should. My buddy was floored. There was ZERO crosstalk to the front speakers. I did this with headphones and set them up just as the folks at 3DSS did and there's no contest on *MY SYSTEM. I did another demo by running PainKiller Battle out of Hell using EAX3. I got to the part where you fight the Boss in the Colloseum. You can easily hear the monsters come up from behind and even hear the Boss in the ring breath down your back as he chases around the ring. Ummmm now if I could kill that sucker and get passed this level.

DVD Audio is played back in full separation through Analog output via 3 sets of RCA jacks and COAX.

Donnie

 

[Mister X]

Are you positive you aren't just setting your receiver to matrix out the channels, or its actually using the analog connections? I've never heard of any way, other than soundstorm to do this, and I'm skeptical [no offence]

I am also very skeptical, so when I read the claim that he was getting multichannel audio via the SPDIF in games I thought the exact same thing (He has to be using matrixing) cause we all know the Audigy cards can only output two channels of PCM data if the source material is not already encoded in multichannel format.
This quote made it obvious:

DVD Audio is played back in full separation through Analog output via 3 sets of RCA jacks and COAX.

Unplug the analog cables from the sound card and tell us what you get.

I appreciate what you are say8ing about Dolby PL II and other matrixing techniques. they are good to have. But just a point of information: no matrix technique is going to sound as good as discrete.

It was merely an example.

And no receiver's speaker distance correction is going to change the actual physical properties of that driver to make it sound just as good at a distance and position it was not designed for. What it is doing is going through the DSP and modifying certain frequencies. That is not what I would call "pure audio."

We are not at the point yet where DSP's can negate the need for properly positioned speakers and proper discrete channel sound mastering. Good surround audio is not created by magic in the receiver.

Do you understand the difference between theory and application?
Proper speaker placement is not always an option because of things like doors, windows, my couch is there, or the room is to small and the like.
So receivers have features to help us compensate for poor room acoustics and less then ideal speaker placement.
You know what the really cool part is?
The end user is left to decide the lesser of two evils and he can not use the DSP if that is his or her thing.

As far as Pure audio goes....
Spoken like a true audiophile.
Are you familiar with the phrase: "if it sounds good it is good"?
If you like that one you are gonna love this one----->
Rationalizing something you have never experienced is simply a propagation of ignorance.
You can even quote me on that.
(kidding)

 

[BO(V)BZ]

Madskills: Got any info about the modification of certain frequencies for distance settings? I was under the impression it simply delayed the channel by a couple milliseconds and vice versa if it's closer. In this case, it wouldn't suffer any quality loss...

However, the 'room EQ' settings that you see these days DO involve DSP musclework, and it's up to you whether you like it or not. I'm certain that you can probably do better by hand, especially if you get some room treatments.

 

[MadSkills]

Madskills: Got any info about the modification of certain frequencies for distance settings? .

There are automated delay settings but I'm more talking about the new DSP equalization techniques for things like timber matching for differently sized speakers and room correction.

Mister X:

I totally understand what you are saying. I'm not trying to be a philosopher with you, you're right, we'll never get "pure audio." It just sounded like some ppl were championing DSP's as completely obviating the usefullness of proper positioning.

The worst example of this I have heard is that "I don't need surround speakers b/c my DVD player has Dolby Pro Logic II." *shudder*

Which leads me to believe that all these matrixing techniques are doing nothing more than making money for Dolby and losing money for the speaker companies.

After all, why do I need a rear channel or 2 for 6.1/7.1 when Ray Dolby says his EX mode sounds just as good? And then George Lucas comes along with his THX EX equalization and that's gotta be even better, right?

 

[MadSkills]

I am also very skeptical, so when I read the claim that he was getting multichannel audio via the SPDIF in games I thought the exact same thing (He has to be using matrixing) cause we all know the Audigy cards can only output two channels of PCM data if the source material is not already encoded in multichannel format.

MisterX:

In donnie's defense, he mentioned in another forum that the Creative is capable of 5.1 digital passthrough when not using DRM sources, of which games are not DRM'ed but DVD's are. Makes sense.

I have not confirmed it but i can't wait to try.

 

[MadSkills]

Guys:

One other consideration about using an HTPC and HDTV for PC Gaming:

Most PC games do not support the NTSC 6500k standard used in all HD and Standard Def TV's. The colors and brightness settings are usually monitored with 9300k monitors.

If you try changing your computre monitor to 6500k, you'll usually see the PC game turn into a color fringed mess, even on a monitor perfectly calibrated for color and grayscale. Also, texture color resolution suffers. The exceptions are console ports like SW:KOTOR which were created for consoles first.

Basically, we need to get rid of 9300k resolution as it's not only confusing for game development but displays less realistic photographs, another major use of the PC.

Just so you have an idea what i'm talking about , 6500k kelvin is the average light radiated at noon on a clear day. Therefore, it's most like natural lighting. All of our PC games have been calibrated with otherworldly blue lighting, lol.

 

[Donnie27]

I am also very skeptical, so when I read the claim that he was getting multichannel audio via the SPDIF in games I thought the exact same thing (He has to be using matrixing) cause we all know the Audigy cards can only output two channels of PCM data if the source material is not already encoded in multichannel format.
This quote made it obvious:


Unplug the analog cables from the sound card and tell us what you get.

Dewd , I did unplug the RCA cables to make certain it worked! Again, only DRM is blocked and if the Game supports 5.1, the Audigy outputs it=P Honestly though, the Analog out sounds better for Games! Digital 96KHz Stereo for Music. Had you simply asked me, I'd have answered. I don't claim anything LOL!

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

MisterX:

In donnie's defense, he mentioned in another forum that the Creative is capable of 5.1 digital passthrough when not using DRM sources, of which games are not DRM'ed but DVD's are. Makes sense.

I have not confirmed it but i can't wait to try.

Thank you very much!

Donnie

 

[Mister X]

Did I miss something somewhere?
My understanding is that audio from games is not encoded to DD on the fly except if you have a Soundstorm board so how can you get something that is not there?

I have not confirmed it but i can't wait to try.

I spent the better of the afternoon playing with it (remember what I said before about propagating ignorance... that applies to me as well ) and the best I could get is two channels from either the SPDIF header on the board or from the jack on the back of the card

I totally understand what you are saying. I'm not trying to be a philosopher with you, you're right, we'll never get "pure audio."

Dang it... I hate it when that happens.
You gave up to easily.
lol

Which leads me to believe that all these matrixing techniques are doing nothing more than making money for Dolby and losing money for the speaker companies.

That and it stagnates development of alternate technologies.
Just imagine were we would be if they had brought their stuffs to the PC 5 years ago....



Donny:
You wanna know what is really funny?
I don't even have a Audigy2 card .
K?
Thanks.
Bye.
Cya

 

[Donnie27]

Did I miss something somewhere?
My understanding is that audio from games is not encoded to DD on the fly except if you have a Soundstorm board so how can you get something that is not there?

I was WRONG! I coundn't get the Bypass to work. I was hoaxed by something similar to the Heaphone trick it was nothing more than Pro-Logic II. Though the virtual rear was OK, it was nothing like (as good) the Analog out, oh brother!

I spent the better of the afternoon playing with it (remember what I said before about propagating ignorance... that applies to me as well ) and the best I could get is two channels from either the SPDIF header on the board or from the jack on the back of the card

I just got off the phone with a bud who got a good laugh out of it as well!

You wanna know what is really funny?
I don't even have a Audigy2 card .
K?
Thanks.
Bye.
Cya

Who is laughing now?

Again Please?

 

[Mister X]

Had you simply asked me, I'd have answered

Ask you what?
Ok... what two sound cards are you using?

I don't claim anything LOL!

How about we review what you have posted here and let me be the judge of what you have or have not claimed here.
ok?

If it walks like a duck----->

Aweeee but many Games support EAX and do play in 5.1 through the Coax to a Receiver, if my VSX-D711 can do it, then any that uses DACs can do the same.

The correct setting to output Games in 5.1 when using the Digital Coax is turn off CMSS, reset Digital in the THX control panel to 5.1 and 48bit from the default 96Hz, at least on my Pioneer it works in 5.1 for almost any games that supports at least EAX2.0 thought 3 works perfectly. You can not use the Coax Cable while the Analog cables are connected for some settings.
!

And it quacks like a duck---->

Yes, I'm not using Matrixed or Pro Logic.

And shits like a duck----->

I did unplug the RCA cables to make certain it worked!

Then It surely must be a duck.

So when you tell me you that have not claimed anything all I can say is:
PFT.
Cause it's all right there DEWD

Wanna try this again?

Oh wait.... no need to is there?

 

[jyi786]

Ask you what?
Ok... what two sound cards are you using?


How about we review what you have posted here and let me be the judge of what you have or have not claimed here.
ok?

If it walks like a duck----->


And it quacks like a duck---->


And shits like a duck----->


Then It surely must be a duck.

So when you tell me you that have not claimed anything all I can say is:
PFT.
Cause it's all right there DEWD

Wanna try this again?

^^^ pwned.

 

[Mister X]

^^^ pwned.

Yea, I have to admit.... he did a good job.

 

[jyi786]

Yea, I have to admit.... he did a good job.

As a matter of fact let me try it again to see if it works...





















And waste another 3 years finding out it doesn't. Thanks so much Creative, for this plus the no LFE output.

 

[Donnie27]

Ask you what?
Ok... what two sound cards are you using?

I'm using an Audigy 2 ZS in one computer, Audigy1 in computer #2, a Hecules MUSE in Computer #3, and an old Pentium 166MMX with SoundBlaster AWE 64.

How about we review what you have posted here and let me be the judge of what you have or have not claimed here.
ok?

OK.

If it walks like a duck----->


And it quacks like a duck---->


And shits like a duck----->


Then It surely must be a duck.

So when you tell me you that have not claimed anything all I can say is:
PFT.
Cause it's all right there DEWD

Wanna try this again?

Oh wait.... ne need to is there?

I made a mistake and corrected it. Instead of acting like you, I owned up to where I was WRONG Now does acting like *this make you feel better?

Donnie

 

[Donnie27]

Oh and please explain Bass Management while you're at it Mister-X. Your Fan club still doesn't get it, [Canuck accent=Donnie27]Oh geesh eh![/Canuck accent]

Donnie

 

[Mister X]

I Now does acting like *this make you feel better?

Got a taste of the poison you were serving up and didn't like it huh?

Dewd , I did unplug the RCA cables to make certain it worked! Again, only DRM is blocked and if the Game supports 5.1, the Audigy outputs it=P Honestly though, the Analog out sounds better for Games! Digital 96KHz Stereo for Music. Had you simply asked me, I'd have answered. I don't claim anything LOL!

Now does acting like THAT make you feel better?

Reap what you sew.

 

[Donnie27]

Got a taste of the poison you were serving up and didn't like it huh?

Now does acting like THAT make you feel better?

Reap what you sew.

As I said, the Analog did sound better, now I know why.

No, I wasn't rubbing anyone's face into anything. I even pointed out that I was Hoaxed by my receiver. I could have easily not said anything but that's wrong. I got one wrong and before it snowballed I tried to correct the problem. I didn't lie! If the good job this receiver was doing fooled me, then I'm going to, well, you see the result.

I wasn't wrong about Bass Management, Analog out or separation for games, I owned an A3D, Santa Cruz, hell even an MX-300.

The analog separation made me notice something was wrong with what I THOUGHT was Digital but Was Digital Pro Logic and not Digital 5.1. The other setting worked=P I went back and used CMSS2 and it sounded just like the Receiver doing Pro Logic. On, just like my Headphones BTW!

Donnie

 

[Mister X]

No, I wasn't rubbing anyone's face into anything.

That was not my intention either, it was just poor timing.
Your post was not there when I started typing the reply.. I got busy with something else and when I submited it and saw your reply that said you were mistaken I was like OH CRAP.
Granted that is my fault for not previewing the reply but you did kinda provoke the smartass in me.

I even pointed out that I was Hoaxed by my receiver.

Pwned by teh reciver

I could have easily not said anything but that's wrong. I got one wrong and before it snowballed I tried to correct the problem. I didn't lie! If the good job this receiver was doing fooled me, then I'm going to, well, you see the result

Stuff happens.

I wasn't wrong about Bass Management, Analog out or separation for games, I owned an A3D, Santa Cruz, hell even an MX-300.

I don't think anyone ever said you was... the only I was questioning was the 5.1 over coax thing.

I went back and used CMSS2 and it sounded just like the Receiver doing Pro Logic.

That is one of the things that prompted the line I posted about how soundcards mimic receivers.
CMSS = Prologic.
CMSS2 = Neo6.
Stereo X2 X3 = All channel stereo
EAX environments = Prologic evronments.
THX console = distance setup.
And so on...

 

[jyi786]

That is one of the things that prompted the line I posted about how soundcards mimic receivers.
CMSS = Prologic.
CMSS2 = Neo6.
Stereo X2 X3 = All channel stereo
EAX environments = Prologic evronments.
THX console = distance setup.
And so on...

Now if only Creative could implement all those into a single, stable application, then we'd be talking.