Computer Science Future Carrer info + Help. Thanks.

[JadedMaple]

Hi, I am a 14 year old Freshman in Highschool (Grade 9). I just started my second semester last week, I had course selection for next year today.I live in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan, Canada so I job with the goverment requires me to be bi-lingual, no worries I have that cased. I first took the "plunge" into scripting in Grade 6.

I failed all the computer classes from Kindergarten to Grade 5 becasue my teacher was a prick then I switched schools.

It was a lunch hour to be remembered in December., I had just got my new Dell Dimension 8100 that past Augest and man was it exciting! I was play Neopets when I stubbled upon Mevams shop, she had a link to her HTML Help site and examples. I wrote out a WHOLE piece of loose leaf in HTML and typed it into my Neopets shop, with no luck I threw out the paper so my Dad wouldn't bitch me out for trying HTML cause I wasn't sure if he liked that stuff. When he got home I gathered my guts to ask him how can I make this easier, he showed me the cut/copy/paste features. I stumbled upon Lissaexplains.com and learnt HTML. My Grade 7 teacher who I still know today, I play on his volleyball team introduced me to Netscape Composer, I went nuts! Wow HTML In a program this is so easy. Then I relized it was shit and my dad got frontpage. I kept writing the HTML Myself but Frontpage made it easier because of the preview features. I moved into tinkering with PHP/mySQL but I could not install Apache because my dad is a tight ass, he doesn't let me install anything or even touch programming. He does support my goals etc, they are giving me $1300 plus my $1300 I saved since last Christmas to buy a Dell Dimension 8400. I will have this in March. The Minute I get this machine PHP/mySQL, Python and my copies of Visual Studios.net are going on the machine


So theres my background info.



For my course selection I chose, French10, Math20, Biology20 and Musical Theatre10. I would have put Computer Science20 in there but I would like a job with the governent because it is a stable job.

Anyway, I was wondering if you Computer Scientists out there could tell me what High School Classes you took, what university classes you took, how much you make, who you work for, and what you do.


Thank you! I really apperciate this!!

What they offer at my local university. http://www.cs.usask.ca/classes/coursedescriptions.jsp

At a local erm, Insitution.

http://www.siast.sk.ca/siast/educationtraining/oncampusprograms/7266/7771/5852/index.shtml#courses

 

[HorsePunchKid]

I don't know that I have too much advice to offer, but I can at least describe how CS is taught here at UIUC. The main thing to realize is that computer science is a heavily overloaded term that means many different things to many different people. Almost nobody considers it a science; no moreso than mathematics is considered a science. So my first point is that to your typical CS professor, CS is really just a branch of mathematics. Here at UIUC, almost all of the CS courses you will take in your first six semesters are cross-listed with mathematics, even. So if you're really interested in CS from the theoretical perspective, you will want to have a very solid math background.

The other major concept of computer science is as more of a vocation. This is not the definition any accredited university will have. From this vocational perspective, you can look at CS as containing all of the skills it takes to work with computers: hardware, architecture, databases, programming. All of these are skills that can be applied directly in a non-academic setting. All of these are the skills that will be most useful to an IT professional. These are not things that a university is particularly interested in teaching under the CS rubric.

All that said, none of your employers are going to care what kind of computer-related degree you've earned, and they probably won't understand or care about the distinction between these two drastically different definitions. Thus even if you're looking at a career in practical IT, your best bet is still to prepare yourself to get through a math-heavy CS degree program. The other skills you can develop as a student employee as an intern.

I just took a look at the links you provided, and they quite clearly demonstrate the distinction. Obviously U-Sask and SIAST want to teach you very different things. The former emphasizes the theory behind computers; the later emphasizes practical application of computer technology. Which is more important to you?

 

[[MS]]

> Anyway, I was wondering if you Computer Scientists out there
> could tell me what High School Classes you took,

CS related? In high school?
None, there weren’t any...

My only CS experience for the first couple years was a bit of BASIC on the “Apple IIe” at school (no, I’m not that old ; the school was very much behind the times) and the Mac LC at home. Also spend a lot of time writing programs for the TI-xx calculators. The usual stuff, archanoid, mine sweeper, a simple “R-Type” derivative, and then programs to do my polynomial long division for math analysis…etc.

Last year of school there was still no CS classes, but I picked up C in the spare time.

> what university classes you took,
Wow… um… a lot.

These are basically defined by the Major that you declare. I was Computer Engineering, so spent about 1/4 in basic classes (physics, number theory, technical writing…), about 1/4 in CS classes (language classes, data structures, computer\network security, OS design, embedded systems, AI theory), about 1/4 in digital circuits classes (digital logic, microprocessor design, asynchronous systems, advanced HDL), and the last quarter in electrical engineering classes (analog circuits, semiconductor theory, control systems, intro RF)

> how much you make,
In the computer industry, it’s not what you make that’s important, or at least it shouldn’t be. Most jobs will do ok as far a salary goes. The primary concern is whether you enjoy what you do. If you look for a job based on what you like to do, you’ll naturally excel in that area, and salary will take care of itself based on your performance.

> who you work for,
Microsoft, the best software company around (but then, I may be biased)

> and what you do.

I write code to break code,
I play with new products to find new and interesting ways to break things,
I write tools that are consumed by others to make their work easier.

To be more precise…
I work in developer division, which focuses on making developers as efficient as possible, and to help them create better apps. So, I work on products meant to be used by people like myself, developers. My title is “Software Development Engineer in Test” (SDET) and roughly means that while my primary job is to write code, I’m on the quality assurance side of things. I take the product written by SDE’s and use them to create applications of my own design, using the product as our customers would. My job is to make other people's jobs easier, an I think that's a cool thing.

Edit: And do I love what I do? Absolutely!

 

[Deque]

I'm currently a Senior in the Computer Science department at my university. I wish there were courses offered in Computer Science in highschool, but none were offered.

Depending on your institute, there will be different tracks you can take. I know at my college, you can either take a Data Applications track or a Systems Development track. Most of the Systems Development deals with the courses [MS] was talking about (engineering, circuit design, etc).

I've taken the Data Applications track. We're required to take some higher level math courses such as Calculus courses and higher level Statistic courses. We also take some analysis of algorithms courses (the devil!), discrete mathematics, and computational linear algebra.

Then the programming courses are really intro to programming (C++), COBOL(!?!)Datastructures (was also in C++, but the language was pretty irrelevant in this course)...a GUI course (Java), and a Computer Graphics course (OpenGL + C), an Operating Systems course (C + POSIX), and I'm currently taking a Computer Architecture class. I also took a Database course in Oracle.

Then I took some extra courses in the School of Business (2 database courses - one access, one Microsoft SQL Server - one networking course), and 12 s.h.'s of electronics (Information Security, Intro to Electronics, PC Hardware, and CCNA semesters 1&2)

I've always taken one semester in Circuit Design (Switching Theory and Machine Organization)

I probably had the most fun in an Organization of Programming Languages course that I took where we were required to learn a new language every week and write a program in it. The only reason I enjoyed it is because it exposed me to a bunch of languages that I would've never dealt with otherwise. We learned Scheme, Lisp, Perl, Pascal, and a language developed by our instructor, Astarte.

 

[KRiTiKuL FX]

In HS I took 2 comp sci classes, AP CS 1 and AP CS 2. Both classes were taught using C++. As far as university classes go, none. I don't have a degree (yet). I had to get a job to be able to pay for school (parents aren't paying for it).

I work at the corporate office of a mortgage company. I develop desktop applications and web applications based on the ever-changing needs of the corporate employees as well as all of our loan officers. I use mostly VB.NET now, but I'm trying to delve into something a little cleaner like C++. Only problem I have doing that is I would be the only one who could suppor t it, since the only other programmer here (my manager) doesn't know anything outside of VB (he still doesn't even understand .NET).

For me being 21, no certs, no degree, and no previous experience (my previous job was working at Best Buy), I make damn good money. I won't give an exact number, but it is over 40k.

Money is nothing though, like [MS] said. It's all about enjoying what you do. If I didn't like what I did here, I would've quit a year ago. If you enjoy what you do, you will put more effort into your projects, and take more pride in the excellence in your work. People will see that and you will get paid accordingly.

 

[mikeblas]

CS related? In high school?
None, there weren’t any...

I don't know what happened at your high school, but I'd think that any HS has courses that are useful for someone interested in CS. The problem is, they're not CS-specific classes and the student needs to know what they want to get out of them.

First, there's the maths. If you're not going at math, you're not going to make much of a computer scientist. A programmer or developer, maybe. But if want to be a Computer Scientist, you need a very good fundamental math background.

Most high schools teach calculus, and an advanced algebra class that will include matrix algebra. You want these.

And it's Computer Science, right? I think that any science course is going to help you with problem solving, scientific process, and scientific method. Maybe some classes more than others, but the fundamentals are there and you need them.

.B ekiM

 

[ameoba]

Math is going to be the most important thing that's directly related to CS.

Almost as important, I think, is English (composition stuff ). It's painful how many people in CS can't write worth shit - they think they're so fucking briliant that they're somehow beyond needing to convey their ideas clearly. They're wrong.

When you do get to college, get involved in summer internships. Not only is it better than 90% of the summer jobs you're likely to get, they make a world of difference when it comes to finding jobs when you get out.

 

[JadedMaple]

Math is going to be the most important thing that's directly related to CS.

Almost as important, I think, is English (composition stuff ). It's painful how many people in CS can't write worth shit - they think they're so fucking briliant that they're somehow beyond needing to convey their ideas clearly. They're wrong.

When you do get to college, get involved in summer internships. Not only is it better than 90% of the summer jobs you're likely to get, they make a world of difference when it comes to finding jobs when you get out.

Yes that would be me, Excel at Math flop at English.


Thanks alot.

 

[lomn75]

Almost as important, I think, is English (composition stuff ). It's painful how many people in CS can't write worth shit - they think they're so fucking briliant that they're somehow beyond needing to convey their ideas clearly. They're wrong.

QFT. If you can't convey ideas, you'll be thought of as a moron regardless of how intelligent you are -- assuming you can land a job in the first place.

 

[jpmkm]

Yes that would be me, Excel at Math flop at English.


Thanks alot.

Well that's exactly why you go to college and get a CS degree rather than go to a vo-tech school. A CS degree is not intended to teach you how to do stuff with computers, and that doesn't really matter anyway. That all comes with experience. A big part of the college experience is learning to communicate and interact with other people, and that is usually a pretty essential skill in the workplace. Don't worry about it, though. You'll get it. Just be sure to take courses in college to learn something; don't take courses just because you already know it all and it will be an easy A.

As for me, I started out in high school with the standard keyboard, computer applications, basic programming bullshit. They were, as often is the case, pretty much geared toward non-computer people. Oh well. I made the best of my time in those courses. Then, my junior year, the district started up a two-year IT academy, which was basically a vo-tech kinda thing. I jumped at the opportunity, but, being the first year it was offered, it was in an elementary school(which was actually pretty awesome. there was a sink in the room and we got really cheap lunch) and the teacher wasn't any smarter than any of the students(he just happened to be my 6th grade computer class teacher, and I knew more about computers even then). That was back in 2000-2002, so a lot of it is somewhat outdated now. It was a great experience, though. I'm a CS major at a liberal arts school now. It's working out okay so far. I'm in a compilers course right now, which is crazy as shit.

Bottom line - take some english classes and get an internship(I'm trying to get an internship right now).

 

[mikeblas]

It's painful how many people in CS can't write worth shit - they think they're so fucking briliant that they're somehow beyond needing to convey their ideas clearly. They're wrong.

I'm afraid I'd disagree with this one, too.

There are lots of computer scientists who can communicate really well. Check out the papers in the ACM or IEEE journals. There's some quality writing going on.

For those that can't communicate well, I don't think they've made a concious decision that they think they're too smart to need to communicate their ideas. They're mostly frustrated to heck about it, I'd bet.

Further, I think the inability to communicate well permiates society. Look at most of the posts on this forum -- misspellings, terrible grammar, "u aren't good enuf 2 no!", and so on. Walk around the mall and count how many signs have incorrect apostropes, quotation marks, or other fifth-grade grammar mistakes.

People aren't good at communicating in all walks of society! Check out this doctor's web page. What does this guy think of his world-facing image if he lets something like "plan to return @ 6 &8 weeks" represent his professional image?

It's something that's hard to measure, though I guess you could cook up a sutdy to try and figure it out. But I believe that the percentage of all CS folks who communicate poorly is actually fewer than the percentage of poor-communicating people in all of society, or in other white-collar professions.

.B ekiM

 

[lomn75]

I'm afraid I'd disagree with this one, too.

So re-apply the original statement to "regardless of profession, you need to be able to write." I'd agree with that. Society's general falling-out with communication skills is no excuse not to develop your own -- particularly not when the vast majority of executives and HR staff know that good communication skills are vital in the real world.

 

[Pianomahnn]

I failed all the computer classes from Kindergarten to Grade 5 becasue my teacher was a prick then I switched schools.

Never blame an instructor for your failures, even in grade school.

 

[JadedMaple]

No this guy, was NUTS. When we type he would hold the binder over your hands right? Well he would hold it low for all the others down low while I had this bigass binder on my chin. Try typing when you can hardly see the monitor in grade 3. Its not that fun.


You could also say he "bullied" me but we will leave it at that.

 

[mikeblas]

Society's general falling-out with communication skills is no excuse not to develop your own

If you think I was offering an excuse, you've vastly misunderstood my post.

.B ekiM

 

[Daemon1313]

Boy this thread has really gone off on a tangent.

My general advice for now would be for you to get comfortable with computers and see what you enjoy and what you have some capacity for doing. Most high school courses do a poor job of teaching computer skills in my experience. As far as college goes, use your electives to experiment with as many aspects of the computer industry as possible. Also pay attention in your computer courses, if you don't you may pass but you will have a hard time in the professional world. I've had to let go way to many entry level employees because they just did the bare minimum in college and didn't actually learn anything.

As far as my background goes, I enjoy programming so I took every possible class related to programming in every language offered by my college. I've been doing C++ development for 7 years. I've worked for the credit card industry and currently work for a company that makes the software & hardware to manage airport parking systems and train ticketing. I won't give out my specific salary but it is in the six figures.

Oh and as far as English skills goes, I've got a couple of tech writers and administrative assistants that handle all of that for me.

 

[mikeblas]

Oh and as far as English skills goes, I've got a couple of tech writers and administrative assistants that handle all of that for me.

How do you communicate with them?

.B ekiM

 

[Daemon1313]

Lots and lots of grunting and pointing. Lord knows that works better than getting the blank stares when I start talking about anything more technical than turning on a PC.

 

[Twister]

You need not concern yourself with a high school cirriculum involving computers or programming. All you really need is a college degree in the field. I took zero high school programming classes and maintain a 3.9 average in my college computer science classes. The decisions you are attempting to make now should be saved for when you are a Senior in highschool or Freshman in college.

 

[mikeblas]

I took zero high school programming classes and maintain a 3.9 average in my college computer science classes. The decisions you are attempting to make now should be saved for when you are a Senior in highschool or Freshman in college.

Why would you not recommend trying to get a head-start on the other subjects? Maths, in particular?

.B ekiM

 

[lomn75]

Along with the above, I'm all for taking as much programming as you can in high school. It's fairly low risk in that if, after taking it, you decide programming isn't your thing, you haven't killed a year-plus and thousands of dollars on college courses that won't cross-apply to a music major.

 

[Twister]

Why would you not recommend trying to get a head-start on the other subjects? Maths, in particular?

.B ekiM

Simply because you will have to retake them in college anyhow I did not recommend not taking math classes, I only suggested that taking computer courses is more or less irrelevant. Chances are he will not be interested in programming when he comes out of high school. Although it is difficult to predict the job market, the field may be more saturated then than it is now, and that would be a bad thing. Rather than worrying about high school classes, worry about your high school GPA and SAT scores. If you do well on those two things, you will not fail in college.

 

[mikeblas]

Simply because you will have to retake them in college anyhow

Not if you can AP or test out of them.

.B ekiM

 

[PHPForever]

I when to university in Toronto and my advice to you is as follows:

1. Work hard to understand math and more importantly math consepts. What do I mean?
Well if I ask you what is 6/3 you most likely would answer 2. But if I ask you what does it mean to divide 6 by 3, can you answer corretly? Most people know how to do math, but only few understand the consepts behind it. Do not allow the numbers to stir you away from the concepts. Do not learn what is 2^99 or how to multiply 9999* 9998 in your head - any idiot with enought time can do. You will learn that in university... hopefully the easy way.

2. The two areas most people have problems in university (CS programs) is math proofs and logic. They go hand in hand. Learn basic logic first. (i.e. A and B, A or B, A xor B, A implies B, not A.) Look into DeMorgan's Laws. If you want a head start learn how to proof the limit using epsilon and delta. (it took 3 months for most of us to understand the proof after we first saw it). Look into Set Theory, and Number Theory. Get an introductory book to Probability/Statistics.

3. If you have computer courses in C, C++ or even Turbo Pascal, take them all. The idea is to get an introduction to a low level language in HS (i hear someone yelling C++ is not a low-level language... whatever). Understand, arrays, pointers, lists, variables, control structures, data structures / records, and trees - to mention some. After you have a good grasp of a low level language look into OOP (Object Oriented Programming). For that you might want to start with JAVA. (The concepts that come from JAVA are priceless. Can't say the same for the language.)

4. What everyone missed here to mention is have FUN in highschool because when you get into university... you just have trust me on that one.

And just to confirm, Computer Science programs are very math oriented. More then 70% of what you do will be math related. (That includes doing a lot of proofs, analisys and modeling ) Here is a link to a second year computer science course at the university of Toronto. Check out the assingments and see for yourself: http://www.dgp.toronto.edu/~ajr/236/

 

[mikeblas]

I when to university in Toronto and my advice to you is as follows:

1. Work hard to understand math and more importantly math consepts. What do I mean?

I think you mean "concepts". Seriously, what I think you mean is number theory. I think, right now, that concrete mathematics is the most important math for CS students.

I'm not sure how it fits into curricula, but that's what I think.

 

[Elmo187]

Your getting some good advice in this thread, but man I wouldn't worry too much for a couple years. Take your usual maths + sciences. Throw in a gym or two for fun, take whatever computer courses are offered and you'll be fine. Don't forget to have fun, highschool is all about having fun and partying. I'm not saying to ignore school, you can have fun and still keep your marks high but I wouldn't be worrying too much about your future now, you're only in grade 9 afterall.

 

[HJB417]

Almost as important, I think, is English (composition stuff ). It's painful how many people in CS can't write worth shit - they think they're so fucking briliant that they're somehow beyond needing to convey their ideas clearly. They're wrong.

Yes, communication is key in any field.

 

[I_Need_Money]

(That includes doing a lot of proofs

Shit, shit, shit! Proofs and I don't mix well unfortunately. A couple of sections back, my calculus book asked to prove that sqrt(1+x) < 1 + 0.5x for all x > 0, and I just couldn't do it... I don't know where to begin, or where to go once I begin. I could do the other problems but that one just had me stumped. I just bought that book "How to Solve It" by G. Polya which I plan on reading when I get enough free time (maybe over the Summer), hopefully that will help me out. I know the only way to get good at math is to do math, so I guess I should get some kind of book with some exercises or something (maybe you guys could give me some recommendations ).

Learn basic logic first. (i.e. A and B, A or B, A xor B, A implies B, not A.) Look into DeMorgan's Laws.

I'll be taking a logic class next semester. So maybe I should hold up on proofs and all that until I learn that logic stuff first?

 

[BillLeeLee]

The proofs we do as CS are stuff like "Prove that this problem is NP-complete" or "Prove that this language is regular."

Mathematical induction is also the favorite tool of the CS theorist.

To the OP: in high school, never did CS. I learned C somehow, and that carried me until college, when I started learning everything else I'm using these days (C++, Java, Perl). The 'computer' courses you could take at my high school was crap like "The internet" and "using microsoft office" (seriously). It was an insult to anyone's intelligence (a girl I knew took "the internet" and a question on one of the tests was 'write a website address')

In high school, all I did was math and the other basic stuff. Though I got to test out of calculus 1 and 2 which was nice. I will say that if you can take a cs course, do so to see if you want to be doing the application (programming) side. Some people can't program jack but are amazing theorists (one of my friends is great at algorithms and theoretical cs, but can't do the programming assignments in the upper level courses).

Writing is, I agree, important. In the professional world, good analytical writing skills are key (I got chewed out a lot because my writing, while structurally sound and coherent, wasn't critical enough in analysis). Being able to write analytical will be very vital to future success - though, very few courses in high school will probably have an emphasis on such writing.

 

[PHPForever]

Shit, shit, shit! Proofs and I don't mix well unfortunately. A couple of sections back, my calculus book asked to prove that sqrt(1+x) < 1 + 0.5x for all x > 0, and I just couldn't do it... I don't know where to begin, or where to go once I begin. I could do the other problems but that one just had me stumped. I just bought that book "How to Solve It" by G. Polya which I plan on reading when I get enough free time (maybe over the Summer), hopefully that will help me out. I know the only way to get good at math is to do math, so I guess I should get some kind of book with some exercises or something (maybe you guys could give me some recommendations ).


I'll be taking a logic class next semester. So maybe I should hold up on proofs and all that until I learn that logic stuff first?

Alright so you have problems proving proofs. Who doesn't? I knew a kid that was the prof's son and he had trouble with some of the proofs. One of the tricks of doing proofs (in my opinion) is knowing your definitions. Another is being a guru in logic. So start with logic, master it, and start with easy proofs. Doing proofs is 60% deductive reasoning and the rest intuition and the ability of manipulation (i.e knowing your math rules well).

To proof sqrt(1 + x) < 1 + 1/2*x for x > 0, start by squaring both sides (that should be intuiting since you can't really do anything with sqrt expression as is) Now expand and simplify the right hand side. So you can conclude that the right handside is always bigger than left by 1/4*x^2 for x>0. You are done!

You should know that proving something like sqrt(1 + x) < 1 + 1/2*x involves more mathematical manipulation and intuition rather then deductive reasoning.

But again, you don't have to go crazy and buy all the books on logic and math. Right now have fun and work on understanding the basics to heart - it is possible to do both quite well.