certs vs BS

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roaf85

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Question:

Taking away the opportunity factor would one be better in going into a small community college with Ciso Cert. Programs and possibily a MSCE/MS Sercurity+ cert. vs a Bachalors in Science with an emphasis in Management of Information systems if one wanted to go into Information Security/IS auditing.

Also is a BS in Management of Information Systems comparable to the experience of people holding certifications, but no experience. Your experted opinions. I know every interviewer is different.
 
Different companies want different things. Are you looking for broad employability or looking at specific companies? For broad employability, I'd say the BS. Gives you a very broad understanding of the field and you should easily understand and adapt to different environments. If you're looking at specific places, try to find out what they use and get certified on that equipment. I personally hate certs, but they're a necessary evil nowadays and can help you get your foot in the door quicker at times.
 
A college degree will get you more in the long run but nothing beats experience and certs when you are just starting out. If you're young (just getting out of school) go to college and grab a degree, even if it's just an Associates. What you will find is that most places will let you in the door with an A+, MCSE, Security+ or CCNA, but they'll expect you to have a college degree before moving into management or most of the higher paying tech fields.

Once you've gone through the trenches you will ultimately be faced with three modes of advancement; 1) Management, 2) Consultant/Architect or 3) Instructor. To transition into these roles you'll typically either need a good amount of experience or a degree and a decent amount of experience. In the end, a degree typically shaves 2-4 years of experience off of a given job description.

In the long run, a degree will help you get to the place you want to be at a quicker pace. You'll still need to work for it... it'll just take you less time.
 
A degree will also give you options in case IT doesn't turn out to be your bag. Many places just want applicants to have a college degree, regardless of position. They won't care about certs or even know what they for non technical jobs.
 
I have 9 years of professional work experience in the IT field, and a few of the bigger certs (MCSE, CCNA, and several small ones) but no college at all. I have found a few places that wouldn't look at me twice because of the lack of a degree, but many others that don't care. It seems to be the larger the company, they more they cared about it.
 
so I guess the question now becomes, "when would it be an approiate time to ask for certification assistance?" For example, I graduate in a year with a BS in MIS and I want to work for Company X, Y, or Z but I do not want to stop my education process. Even if this does not mean a master program, because I feel that very few companies are going to provide assistance for a masters degree right out of college.

I would still like to continue education in the IT field, just to cover some more in depth topics than what were covered at my university. Right now with my experience I still feel I lack the required experience to land an IT job. Plus I love the little bit that employers tell students about not needing experience to land a position. Total bullshit in the IT field.

In order to land internships in the IT field, I have found that MySQL, VB.NET, C/C++, Java experience is highly sought. Besides VB.NET I doubt one would have a strong experience working with other languages in an MIS college. Heck with as hard as engineering is and computer science now a days, it is hard to even gain experience with those languages while in college. Of course as always job markets and colleges are a mixed bag.
 
Keep in mind that a degree is a degree in the eyes of most companies. So, with that in mind, what is it -you- want to do after you get out of college? Do you want to be a programmer? A network engineer? A systems engineer (windows/bsd/*nux)? Once you have that in mind you can aim for your 'ideal job.' There is no mystic combination of degree and certs that will get your foot in everywhere.

Also, why internships? Unpaid Internships may be necessary to gain some experience before starting but you should always check to see whether a paid job is available first. If your goal is a "Network Engineer" for instance, perhaps you can find a job working with your local ISP or even cable provider. Start low and work your way up if you need too; work hard, prove yourself and get to your dream job in a few years.
 
Generally speaking neither will get you far if you're just starting out. Hell, even mid-level engineers need both nowadays. Senior level guys almost require both. Its really hard to make it up through the system for 20 years and keep progressing without having at least a BS.

IMO, if your choice is between one or the other, I say get the cert. Many job postings will substitute experience for varying levels of degrees, but they still want the certs to go with that experience. Then once you're hired you can finish up your degree on the company's dime.
 
Orinthical said:
Also, why internships? Unpaid Internships may be necessary to gain some experience before starting but you should always check to see whether a paid job is available first.
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We use interns from time to time and I've asked them the same question before. Most of the interns we used were going to school full time, studying for their certs as well and only had time for part time work. They were desperate for experience they could add to the degree and certs, but didn't have time to do it full time. There aren't a hell of a lot of part time positions available, so for a lot of people in that position an intern slot does what's needed. Same for us as a company, we couldn't afford to hire someone for the slot, even a temp, so getting someone to come and work for us for a year or so worked out perfectly on both sides. I totally agree with you that if there is a part time paid position available, or if you have the time for a full time paid gig, then definitely go with that before taking an internship. Also, a lot of times an internship in a larger company is a way of getting your foot in the door... ;)
 
wtburnette said:
We use interns from time to time and I've asked them the same question before. Most of the interns we used were going to school full time, studying for their certs as well and only had time for part time work. They were desperate for experience they could add to the degree and certs, but didn't have time to do it full time. There aren't a hell of a lot of part time positions available, so for a lot of people in that position an intern slot does what's needed. Same for us as a company, we couldn't afford to hire someone for the slot, even a temp, so getting someone to come and work for us for a year or so worked out perfectly on both sides. I totally agree with you that if there is a part time paid position available, or if you have the time for a full time paid gig, then definitely go with that before taking an internship. Also, a lot of times an internship in a larger company is a way of getting your foot in the door... ;)
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I have been considering some Co Op internships (unpaid), but at the same time I do not need the credit. That is not the reason why I am not considering them though. Usually when I apply I get weeded out because the Co Ops are in another state and thus do not want to accomadate living arrangments.

There is not much Co Op in our state. Also I agree with the above poser. I am desperate for experience. True I could do cable installs for a local cable company, but being a full time student would conflict with flexibility. Plus I have a job now, it is not routine and that is the problem I find with a cable installer.

It becomes more a sales position, ex: "installed X amount of plans" and "maintained a district of 400".

So good responsibility skills, but not really better that what I have now "manage Microsoft Access database of 50,000 records that generate X an Y reports"

What I am looking for is: "Helped design database that houses over 1 million records using MySQL and UML design modeling schemes"

Those internships do exist!!
 
go for a BS in IMS know your s%?t and a good company will glady pay for your certs. Most companies these days require technical degrees and for many a BS in CS or IS will meet those requirements. Good Luck!
 
If you're going to school, it's easier to do the time and get the degree you need (BS). It's a lot harder to get pretty far into your career then decide you need more schooling. By then you really don't have the time required for college courses, while it's much easier to study for certs at that point. I only have an AAS in Computer Info Systems Tech, plus an MCSE, but after 14 years in the IS/IT field I'm finding I really need that BS and I've got no time to spend on school. That's why I say get the BS now, then when you get on somewhere, start doing certs in your spare time and have the company pay for them (quite a few will).
 
slats said:
go for a BS in IMS know your s%?t and a good company will glady pay for your certs. Most companies these days require technical degrees and for many a BS in CS or IS will meet those requirements. Good Luck!
Click to expand...

That is the problem I do not know my shit. I have had hands on experience with VB.NET coding in C. Some with UML using Rational Rose and StarUML, mainly object oriented. Unless I was going into computer science, which I am not I am getting maybe some experience in the class doing "designing smiley face etc"

My Access work experience is ok, more manging then designing but I am basically coming to 2 types of interviewers. Ones that know their shit and see that. designing a smiley face is not programming. At this point I do not even know why they advertise for MIS people. If MIS students are getting these jobs they are Comp Sci minors.

Then you have the other types which I can impress with "smiley face program", but then it comes down to do you know MySQL. Well I do not. I have used it once and they want to know what I have done in the job previously being descriptive as possible. They want experience. Some one comes along has experience you lose.

At this point I do even know why I would want to go into these positions if they require X amount of experience at an entry level. That is why I ask the Certification question. How am I suppose to get a job where company X will pay for my certifications if I can not even quantify a large amount of experience

EDIT: Sorry I guess I am trying to throw opportunity and situation statements in my post. I am just trying to elaborate on an example for better understanding and hopefully to dig deeper into the discussion.
 
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