Carmack's Final Verdict: XBOX 360 > PS3

dont care about a thing that carmack says because of the following fact.

sweeney > carmack

sweeny makes better engines, MUCH better tools for developers (if youve ever used unrealed vs radiant you can't help but marvel at how much thought of usability went into unrealed), and epic's games are simply way more fun. ut2k4 changed multiplayer fps gaming forever w/ onslaught mode. The netcode tends to be a billion times better than carmacks as well.

the above statement about id's creativity is totally true. they simply havent made a decent creative game since romero, american mcgee, and brian hook left the company.

also i hear carmack tends to be a controlling egomaniac and by all accounts ive read, sweeney is quite possibly the nicest gamer/programmer you'll ever meet in your life (at least billy wilson seemed to think so. Rest in peace billy)

and for the record, i believe sweeney prefers ps3 not that i plan on buying either. ive spent too much on this pc to care about watching developers learn to code on asymetric cpu's who's code wont be portable to the pc worth a damn.
 
emailthatguy said:
The netcode tends to be a billion times better than carmacks as well.
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You win some, you lose some. Unreal's netcode was so horrible it was unplayable over lan. UT2K4's is great though.
 
emailthatguy said:
dont care about a thing that carmack says because of the following fact.

sweeney > carmack

sweeny makes better engines, MUCH better tools for developers (if youve ever used unrealed vs radiant you can't help but marvel at how much thought of usability went into unrealed), and epic's games are simply way more fun. ut2k4 changed multiplayer fps gaming forever w/ onslaught mode. The netcode tends to be a billion times better than carmacks as well.

the above statement about id's creativity is totally true. they simply havent made a decent creative game since romero, american mcgee, and brian hook left the company.

also i hear carmack tends to be a controlling egomaniac and by all accounts ive read, sweeney is quite possibly the nicest gamer/programmer you'll ever meet in your life (at least billy wilson seemed to think so. Rest in peace billy)

and for the record, i believe sweeney prefers ps3 not that i plan on buying either. ive spent too much on this pc to care about watching developers learn to code on asymetric cpu's who's code wont be portable to the pc worth a damn.
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I disagree with your opinion, but Carmack certainly isn't a people person by any standard, and they definately haven't had a huge hit since romero and mcgee left. As far as netcode is concearned, I think both UT2K4's and id's suck at this point. But UT's is better than id's in many ways.
 
One thing to add, I don't really care what somone's opinion is of Carmack, and I'll admit I am a !!!!!!, there's no doubt. But the guy has done so many revolutionary things for computer games at large. Lets forget the whole FPS thing, lets look at side scrolling, he was the first to do it, period. All of his work ends up being open source, the guy gives his engines to the community, he has never stood for the huge corporate setting, and he has been the sole person behind his engines. I do think the spark has gone from id that they once had in the hay day, but that doesn't make them retards now. Doom 3 for many was an extremely awsome game, I was one of those, for others it wasn't great at all for one reason or many. If you're going to compare him to Sweeny or Gabe, there are a couple of things to look at, Sweeny has definately done some wonderful things, at least when you look at the upcoming engine for Unreal, but neither of them would be here without the innovation Carmack made in the first place.
 
FlatLine84 said:
Lets forget the whole FPS thing, lets look at side scrolling, he was the first to do it, period.
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Earth to Major Tom. Come in, Major Tom!

What crack are you smoking when you say that? Carmack did not invent sidescrolling nor was he even close to doing it. For that matter, he didn't even create the first FPS game. He's good, but he didn't do what you claim he did.
 
Maybe he got confused with the Duke Nukem series since it takes 10 years between releases.
 
finalgt said:
Fuck Carmack and fuck ID. When they start making actual games with actual innovation, maybe I'll start caring about what platform this guy prefers.
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Wolfenstein circa 1990, Doom circa 1992, totally revolutionized the PC gaming experience. Quake lead to the creation of online gaming communities through team fortress and other popular modifications. However, I'm sure there's plenty of posters on this site that were still in daipers when John Carmack and the upstart iD software paved the road for modern FPS games.
 
but like eddie murphy said...

what have you done for me lately?

the innovation they had that you just spoke of were largely due to the above mentioned john romero, american mcgee, and brian hook. again none of which are at id anymore. its a very different place now from what it was way back when. just as the atari of today doesnt even resemble nolan's atari of the 80's (a bit of a stretch i know but used to show that a name doesnt mean anything anymore).

we can only hope at this point that american starts working on an fps, hope romero's next fps doesnt blow, brian hook i believe left the industry after quitting soe (which i believe he wasnt even there long, maybe a few months, cretive differences or something like that).

id has NOBODY worth noting in the level design department. hell, with all the outsorcing id is doing lately (hell they even outsourced the multiplayer in the outsourced expansion to 3wave for doom3) theyre probobly going to outsource the next engine codebase to india lmao.

point being, id WAS great. But they havent done anything "groundbreaking" since quake 2's release 9 years ago. thats 1 shy of a decade for those keeping track.
 
beanman101283 said:
It sounds like he's saying that the xbox360's development tools are better than the PS3's, not the console itself.
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That would make more sense, realistically...Sony adopted the "Sink or Swim" ideology with the PS2 architecture so it wouldn't surprise me if they did the same with their newest toy.

...FTR, those of you who scoff at the X360 and turn around to say you want a PS3 are a bit delusional...Sony uses just as many PC ports as Microsoft does (If not more).
 
Netrat33 said:
As someone already said: I already have computer

More excited for PS3 and revolution....although I will probably buy one 2 years from now ;)
($$$)

I never really cared for what xbox had to offer...so still not crazy about xbox360.

also...xbox360> ps3 if this is true (power house wise) doesn't mean games are better.
If anything they are all equal. who cares.
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Who cares that the underlaying hardware has pc origins? Doesn't make it a worse console, will you not buy a p3 because their planing on useing cell processors in pc's? If the 360 has better games it'll sell more, plain and simple.
 
emailthatguy said:
but like eddie murphy said...

what have you done for me lately?

the innovation they had that you just spoke of were largely due to the above mentioned john romero, american mcgee, and brian hook. again none of which are at id anymore.
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What the heck do a couple game/level designers and an artist have to do with the innovations he mentioned? On that note, what have any of them done since?
Quake revolutionized 3D gaming, and multiplayer gaming at the same time, thanks to the coding done by Carmack. (Well, Abrash too for his software renderer work).
As far as groundbreaking improvements go, I wouldnt say the Unreal series has had any real groundbreaking movements in the last many years either. It's the same game with some improvements..
 
I think the Quake 3 engine was one of the more important engines of the last 5 years. That and Unreal Engine 2. They both allowed for some fantastic games (Call of Duty comes to mind for Q3, and Bet on Soldier for Unreal)

Though the Quake 2 engine gave birth to such classics as Kingpin and Soldier of Fortune :cool:
 
Torgo said:
Earth to Major Tom. Come in, Major Tom!

What crack are you smoking when you say that? Carmack did not invent sidescrolling nor was he even close to doing it. For that matter, he didn't even create the first FPS game. He's good, but he didn't do what you claim he did.
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I meant on computer, computers at time did not have the proccessing power to do side scrolling effectively, or side scrolling as we know it, yes they could show you one frame per page as a different screen, but I'm talking mario style, where the landscape moves with you. The first time that was done on a computer was a complete remark of Mario 3, which was done by Carmack. To the best of my knowledge, Catacomb somthing or other, I can't remember the name was the first FPS, and that was done by Carmack, if I am in fact wrong, please show some proof.
 
emailthatguy said:
commander keen was the first platform game?

lmfao omfg hahahahahahaha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitfall

pitfall was released in 1982

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commander_Keen

commander keen was released in 1990

you only were off by almost a decade. i can see how you could have gotten confused w/ those release dates so close together :rolleyes:

lol!

god thats like saying al gore invented the internet
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Did I say Commander Keen? No, don't think so, please play again.
 
From a interview I saw on techtv/g4, he never said the 360 was superior EXCEPT in the programming tools department.

Get cho facts scraight.
 
DukenukemX said:
Meaning that the extra power the PS3 produces doesn't out weight the 360's ease to develop on. Meaning the easier to develop on the better the games will be.
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I would say that the easier to develop on, the sooner you'll see games on that platform. It also makes it more likely that the X-Box 360 could have more games developed on it for that reason. If it's faster and easier to develop for it, you spend less time and therefore less money developing for it, and you have a shot at recovering your investment faster.

Then again if the PS3 outsells the Xbox360 by a wide enough margin, that would make the extra development time worth it. And that may be why MS made the extra effort at easing the development path, because they are probably still on the wrong side of the marketshare pie in this particular arena.

All in all it seems like a non-story. Carmack wasn't giving a glowing review, just saying he preferred Xbox360 because it's easier to develop for. But I expect that Id will produce games for both platforms anyway. Microsoft would need to pay some pretty hefty cash for an exclusive contract with Id, is my guess.
 
FlatLine84 said:
I meant on computer, computers at time did not have the proccessing power to do side scrolling effectively, or side scrolling as we know it, yes they could show you one frame per page as a different screen, but I'm talking mario style, where the landscape moves with you. The first time that was done on a computer was a complete remark of Mario 3, which was done by Carmack. To the best of my knowledge, Catacomb somthing or other, I can't remember the name was the first FPS, and that was done by Carmack, if I am in fact wrong, please show some proof.
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On a computer? You're making this too easy. Let's start off with the first FPS...

The first true FPS was Red Baron which hid arcades in the late 1970's. It featured a first-person viewpoint where the player was a tailgunner in WWI. The object was to shoot down enemy airplanes with your machine gun. If you're strictly talking about computers, using something equivalent to Doom or Castle Wolfenstein 3D, then Ultima Underworld predates this. In fact, Carmack saw this engine at E3 (I believe) and thought that he could do something just as well.

Back to sidescrolling. Which computer platform do you want me to use? Apple II? C64? PC? Now I'm going to assume that you're not referring to parallax scrolling which gives the false illusion of depth in a playing field. There are plenty out there. One of my favorites was Thexder or Heroes of the Lance. Sidescrolling is a technology that had been around for years before John Carmack starting touching it.

John Carmack is a great programmer. He isn't very inventive, but he's extremely skilled at taking new or existing technology and implementing better than almost anyone else out there.
 
Torgo said:
John Carmack is a great programmer. He isn't very inventive, but he's extremely skilled at taking new or existing technology and implementing better than almost anyone else out there.
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Creating two of the best FPS series Doom and Quake, I would have to say, he is very inventive.
 
Torgo said:
On a computer? You're making this too easy. Let's start off with the first FPS...

The first true FPS was Red Baron which hid arcades in the late 1970's. It featured a first-person viewpoint where the player was a tailgunner in WWI. The object was to shoot down enemy airplanes with your machine gun. If you're strictly talking about computers, using something equivalent to Doom or Castle Wolfenstein 3D, then Ultima Underworld predates this. In fact, Carmack saw this engine at E3 (I believe) and thought that he could do something just as well.

Back to sidescrolling. Which computer platform do you want me to use? Apple II? C64? PC? Now I'm going to assume that you're not referring to parallax scrolling which gives the false illusion of depth in a playing field. There are plenty out there. One of my favorites was Thexder or Heroes of the Lance. Sidescrolling is a technology that had been around for years before John Carmack starting touching it.

John Carmack is a great programmer. He isn't very inventive, but he's extremely skilled at taking new or existing technology and implementing better than almost anyone else out there.
Click to expand...

I knew about Ultima, but I guess I don't really think fo it as an FPS, but anyways, thanks for clearing it up?
 
Torgo said:
On a computer? You're making this too easy. Let's start off with the first FPS...

The first true FPS was Red Baron which hid arcades in the late 1970's. It featured a first-person viewpoint where the player was a tailgunner in WWI. The object was to shoot down enemy airplanes with your machine gun. If you're strictly talking about computers, using something equivalent to Doom or Castle Wolfenstein 3D, then Ultima Underworld predates this. In fact, Carmack saw this engine at E3 (I believe) and thought that he could do something just as well.

Back to sidescrolling. Which computer platform do you want me to use? Apple II? C64? PC? Now I'm going to assume that you're not referring to parallax scrolling which gives the false illusion of depth in a playing field. There are plenty out there. One of my favorites was Thexder or Heroes of the Lance. Sidescrolling is a technology that had been around for years before John Carmack starting touching it.

John Carmack is a great programmer. He isn't very inventive, but he's extremely skilled at taking new or existing technology and implementing better than almost anyone else out there.
Click to expand...

I'm not a Carmack fan but it's a commonly circulated story that Carmack found a trick that made it possible to create a smooth side-scrolling engine for EGA which was a first for the PC. He then proceeded to make a Mario 3 clone with his partner copying over the tiles and Carmack programming the game and then later renaming it "Dangerous Dave in Copyright Infringement".
 
Draax said:
Creating two of the best FPS series Doom and Quake, I would have to say, he is very inventive.
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Level design is not his forte. Those honors would go to Romero and Petersen.

As for the EGA scrolling, Carmack was able to perfect smooth scrolling which my good friend John Romero described as "And NO ONE had released a game with smooth horizontal scrolling like a Nintendo". Smooth being the key. Others had released games that scrolled smoothly vertically and horizontally, but not nearly as smooth, on the EGA adapter.

Carmack's success has always been to take existing technology and tweak it beyond anything that anybody has seen to that point. That doesn't always make a great game (as the game design in Doom 3 shows).
 
Torgo said:
That doesn't always make a great game (as the game design in Doom 3 shows).
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That is an opinion, there are many that feel Doom 3 is a great game.
 
Funny, I took Doom 3 to be a glorified tech demo, not a game, kinda like the first Unreal.
 
the real question on everyones mind should be "will the 360 be as mod freindly as the original xbox?" Its the most no-nonsense htpc I've ever played with. Alot of the new features in the xbox360 (in particular the media extender function, ability to customize, standard usb pc/360able controller) seem to me to be inspired by the xbox mod/hack community. Talk about making lemonade out of lemons for MS. And please don't go off on me about game piracy theirs plenty of reasons to softmod your box that don't have anything to do with game piracy.
 
.............................................Netcode! ..........................Netcode...................?

.................Hardware............at a loss? Hardware sold.........................loss.........



Feel free to fill in your own point. ;)
 
This is a really good thing for games.

lets say a really good game has a budget of 30 million dollars. If the 360 is 20% easier to program for, that 20% goes to added content, features etc. On a more difficult system, that 20% goes to actually making the game work, and it takes longer.
 
Draax said:
Funny, I took Doom 3 to be a glorified tech demo, not a game, kinda like the first Unreal.
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Well, that's like sayign the first Doom was a tech demo, or any of the Quake games was a tech demo, or as you say Unreal was a tech demo. They all had stories, all of pretty much the same caliber. They all had weapons, a goal, and an outcome. A tech demo is somthing like what they've been releasing for tidbits of the new Unreal engine.

What would make it a "game" other than that? I don't see what they're lacking compared to other "games". Half-Life was definately a more story driven game, but that could be a "tech demo" because of the interactivety of the levels and seemless intergration stages.... If we're just sticking to the FPS genre, then I guess we could compare to FarCry, oh, but wait, that's a "tech demo" too because of the huge ass maps, and long distance rendering range, oh and "look at the foliage".

Just because you didn't enjoy the experience of Doom 3, doesn't mean it's simply a "tech demo". It was marketed as a game, it was a game by all accounts, it introduced a new engine. As far as being too dark, I don't see how that was a problem, I think that was the point for how it was done, if the maps were brighter, it wouldn't have been scary the way they wanted to scare.
 
Who cares? This whole thread is turning into a pokemon battle using game developers...
"John Camack I choose YUO!!!"

Again, who cares? You like the game? You buy the game. ohhhh innovation, wow, sorry, I don't pay or play "innovation", I will pay for A GAME THAT IS FUN TO PLAY. They are both good programmers I'm sure -- a hell of a lot better than me, and probably a hell of a lot better than you! Do I care what they say? hell no. You are only as good as your game.

Honestly, back in the old days of ID I love their games. I played Wolfeinstein 3D from start to finish, and enjoyed every minute of it. I played Doom 1 and Doom 2... O.M.G. Doom 2. Countless hours wasted playing that against ppl on the school LAN.

Then Quake came out. Yea the *engine* was innovative, but I took one look at it and yawned. Then unreal came out and I thought THAT was a decent game, but still doesn't come close to elicit the same amount of fun/excitement compared to Doom2 for me.

Oh, quake 2, quake 3, doom 3, blah blah blah, so they managed to improve the graphics and raise the system requirements, still the same boring game to me. Unreal is like a graphics demo desperate for attention by adding in some wacky weaponery every update.

The only memorable FPSs I can remember playing recently? Half-Life and Serious Sam (1 and 2). Nothing more needs to be said regarding Half Life, and Serious Sam was just awesomely entertaining -- nothing beats seeing 100 mutant buffalo charging at me from a distance, while armed with a trusty double barrel shotgun, pick'em off left and right. I actually bought Doom 3 after all the hype -- because I remembered how much fun I had playing Doom 2. And you know what, after crawling around grey-ish brown tunnels for hours, I shelved it and has yet to pick it up again. It's a game that got so caught up in its own graphics superiority that it managed to strangle all the fun out of it.

Sorry for the long rant, but I guess I'm just trying to say -- it's not about programming skill, or about who did what first. It's all about what YOU find entertaining. John Camack says xBox 360 is better? good for him. I still wouldn't buy doom 3 or quake 5 or whatever. Stop grandstanding and go make better games please.

cheers,

yass
 
Shigaru Miaymoto San > John Carmack


Seriously, buy whatever system has the games you like.

Super Smash Brothers ONLINE!!!
Mario Kart ONLINE
Mario Party ONLINE
Metroid ONLINE
Zelda next gen..

drools...
 
Isaacav2 said:
Shigaru Miaymoto San > John Carmack


Seriously, buy whatever system has the games you like.

Super Smash Brothers ONLINE!!!
Mario Kart ONLINE
Mario Party ONLINE
Metroid ONLINE
Zelda next gen..

drools...
Click to expand...

A definate God of the prgramming world.
 
Isaac, Nintendo has gone and said that the next Zelda game (after Twilight) will be online as well.... something you can add to your list :)

As for online FPS capability, both Maze War and Spasim (1973) had online multiplayer, through serial networks AND the birth of ethernet (3mbps).

As for Carmack... as amazing of a programmer that he is... who cares what he thinks about consoles - honestly? He can make a good engine, but until he re-learns how to make a good game, he can programm for the Atari 2600 for all I care.
 
steviep said:
Isaac, Nintendo has gone and said that the next Zelda game (after Twilight) will be online as well.... something you can add to your list :)

As for online FPS capability, both Maze War and Spasim (1973) had online multiplayer, through serial networks AND the birth of ethernet (3mbps).

As for Carmack... as amazing of a programmer that he is... who cares what he thinks about consoles - honestly? He can make a good engine, but until he re-learns how to make a good game, he can programm for the Atari 2600 for all I care.
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He never made games, just the engines. The need Romero back.
 
common logic look at the games that sony and microsoft offer... the only good game on the PS2 was Socom. but on the xbox you got Halo, Halo2, Unreal Championship, Return to Castle Wolfienstien, Ghost Recon, Rainbow Six. all with LIVE support. and in my opinion the 360 will win this next gen race because of 2 things:
1.Games
2. Xbox LIVE
 
Isaacav2 said:
Shigaru Miaymoto San > John Carmack


Seriously, buy whatever system has the games you like.

Super Smash Brothers ONLINE!!!
Mario Kart ONLINE
Mario Party ONLINE
Metroid ONLINE
Zelda next gen..

drools...
Click to expand...

Awesome. The same franchises we've been playing for the past twenty years will get milked on a new system. Joy :rolleyes:
 
EEERRrrmmm... I don't care if they are charictors that I have seen before, point is THE GAMES ARE FUN!!! Give me Zelda 16, for all I care, as long as it has Nintendo quality.


ZELDA ONLINE :eek: :eek:

Oh, and John has no effect on my opinions of the X360. Witch stands as a rushed toy that needs too much time to prove itself.
 
emailthatguy said:
dont forget american mcgee that guys mind is just out there.
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Yeah, whoops, American was awsome, Adrian was damn good too, that guy had some awsomely disturbing artwork.
 
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