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Carmack digs the NV40!!!

D

defiant

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 14, 2003
Messages
461
If the god of 3D game engines is impressed how can NV40 possibly flop??

http://www.nvnews.net/

"During his keynote speech at GDC, game engine developer extraordinaire John Carmack teased the audience about NVIDIA's soon to be launched NV40 with a quick quip which was as follows.

"I just got an nv40 and put it in my dev machine, and it is spectacular!""
 
Yeah but he also said over a year ago, that the NV30 would be the best video card for Doom ]l[, that was before the 9700-Pro was released :rolleyes:
Lets just wait and see when the NV40 + R420 are really out and benchmarked

Also nVidia has always been a little better at OpenGL games, which Doom]l[ is one of the last new GL engines made
 
uhhh I recall the NV30 performing better than R300 in most of the doom 3 benchmarks. B'sides Carmack has always been very candid and forthcoming when it came to his opinions on video card performance.

Just take a look at some of his plan updates to see what im talking about.
 
Originally posted by Labrador
Yeah but he also said over a year ago, that the NV30 would be the best video card for Doom ]l[, that was before the 9700-Pro was released :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

And now he said it's spetacular, not that it's better than the ATIs.
 
Originally posted by defiant
uhhh I recall the NV30 performing better than R300 in most of the doom 3 benchmarks. B'sides Carmack has always been very candid and forthcoming when it came to his opinions on video card performance.

Just take a look at some of his plan updates to see what im talking about.
Click to expand...

that was early alpha.
 
Yes and keep in mind that Doom 3 is sponsored by nVidia. Do you think you would ever see Gabe Newell bash ATI :)
 
Also nVidia has always been a little better at OpenGL games,
Click to expand...

Of course ATi simply ignores the existence of OpenGL. Sure, their Direct3D drivers are up to date, but OpenGL still don't work. Let me rephrase that, they do "work"... to some extent. Although they will do completely wack shit with your games. In some, the effect is minimized to minor quircks, like black lines at the edge of sky tectures, and the pixels arranged in "beehive" pattern. In others (Warcraft III, for one) it goes completely nuts. That includes:

1) Everything floats in a great pool of blackness
2) The contrast is screwed up
3) The lightning is WAY too bright
4) Particle effects are simply missing
5) Some textures disappear when you look from different angles, some will flash wildly at you.
6) When there's a lightning effect near a texture, a texture will become invisible for the duration of the lightning effect.

This only happens if you run Warcraft III in OpenGL mode. It's okay otherwise. Also, none of these problems occur when i run WarIII in OpenGL on my geforce. I ended up returning that radeon; i'm a big fan of OpenGL and run everything in it (if that's possible). Yeah, and Doom III is OpenGL-based.
 
Originally posted by M4d-K10wN
Of course ATi simply ignores the existence of OpenGL. Sure, their Direct3D drivers are up to date, but OpenGL still don't work. Let me rephrase that, they do "work"... to some extent. Although they will do completely wack shit with your games. In some, the effect is minimized to minor quircks, like black lines at the edge of sky tectures, and the pixels arranged in "beehive" pattern. In others (Warcraft III, for one) it goes completely nuts. That includes:

1) Everything floats in a great pool of blackness
2) The contrast is screwed up
3) The lightning is WAY too bright
4) Particle effects are simply missing
5) Some textures disappear when you look from different angles, some will flash wildly at you.
6) When there's a lightning effect near a texture, a texture will become invisible for the duration of the lightning effect.

This only happens if you run Warcraft III in OpenGL mode. It's okay otherwise. Also, none of these problems occur when i run WarIII in OpenGL on my geforce. I ended up returning that radeon; i'm a big fan of OpenGL and run everything in it (if that's possible). Yeah, and Doom III is OpenGL-based.
Click to expand...

its things like this that just make me shudder...you return a card for the simple fact that OGL didnt "run correctly" on your machine at the time and for mainly one game? granted War3 is a popular game and all but still. I REALLY wanna know how i can run ALL my OpenGL titles goin all the way back to Quake2, including Alice and others and not have a single problem. I even run it all with the settings and AA/AF turned all the way up so it even looks real nice while im getting uber framerates in the process. :confused: :confused: :confused:
 
OpenGL is starting to lose some appeal.

Its great as a 3D video renderer only, in many respects it can be superior to D3D.

But it does not integrate too well with other components like low-latency internet gaming, 3D sound, etc... DirectX uses DirectPlay to try to improve internet play and DirectSound to improve audio performance/quality.

Nobody likes to mention the interesting problems when trying to integrate a video only specification like OpenGL with a couple dozen environmental audio effects while also trying to combat packet loss on an internet connection. If Carmack can pull it off, all the more power to him.
 
I blame 56kers. It's usually fin in Urban Terror with about 4-6 people on the server; but when there are more people the lag get really crazy. But then it's even worse with Bf1942's magic netcode, that makes all rifles useless due to lag. And that's playing 1v1 on lan, or playing with bots and no lan. I try to snipe a bot that sits in a tank turret that for some reason spawned on top of a tent. He's definetly not moving. Neither am I. 9 shots aimed directly at the bot missed before i could finally land a hit.
 
Originally posted by defiant
B'sides Carmack has always been very candid and forthcoming when it came to his opinions on video card performance.
Click to expand...

That doesn't mean he is right, or his endorsements be taken seriously
 
lets not forget that nvidia is "sponsoring" doom 3, so carmack might be inclined to pimp nvidia's cards.
 
But really. Don´t you all expect the NV40 to be way better than any card out there today so if it´s why shouldn´t he mention it?

If I had to choose between an 9800 XT and a NV40 I would get the NV40 without blinking ;)
 
He said it was "spectacular" That says ...well ...nothing in regards to R420 comparisons. At first I was all for this pre-release speculations, but this is just getting ridiculous. I'm just going to wait and see. :)
 
two things,
#1 he still said that the nv3X would be the card to play D3 on after both were launched, and the d3 benches that were released here on [H] more than support that claim.
#2 Nvidia has worked hard to help ID and sponsor them, add that to the fact that ID probably is still pissed at ATI for leaking the Alpha and there would obviously be an Nvidia bias.

(oh yeah, and the final detail is that due to the nature of the engine, D3 is one of the few games in which the nv40 could do 32x0 for stencil ops, hence it gets a huge performance boost, that is the same reason that the nv30 beat the r300 in D3, it could run like a 8x1 card in D3)
 
money talks and people walks, when i see the benchmarks by a few reputable sources, of both cards, then i will choose the better one, regardless of the brand.

Carmack and gabe both in my opinion are hired spokesmans...
they should stick to making the games, we love so much, maybe then, we wouldnt need them telling us how good it will look on this card or that card etc, and we could actually play them ourselves.

dont you guys get fed up.
carmack "nv3X would be the card to play D3"
gabe: "we chose ati because we should bundle the game with the card that runs the game better"

i would be pissed as hell if i had a nv3x and i couldnt play doom3 at really high settings. i would also be pissed if i when hl2 is released i cant run it on the card that it was bundle, at high settings too.

i would never buy a video card today for a future game.
 
Carmack was saying it before Nvidia started sponsoring the game and before ATI leaked it. That implies that it is more likely to be true.
 
uhhh I recall the NV30 performing better than R300 in most of the doom 3 benchmarks.
Click to expand...

Argh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

According to the last .plan update from Carmack I recall mentioning relative performance:

The NV30 running the NV30 renderpath is faster than the R300 running the standard ARB2 codepath, though the NV30 codepath looks to some degree worse due to the use of reduced precision on the (fragment) shaders.

The NV30 running the standard ARB2 codepath is slower than the R300 running the same codepath.

So, when you do a full "apples to apples" comparison using the standard codepath, the NV30 loses. When you use the NV30 special codepath it beats the R300 running the standard codepath in terms of speed. There is no R300 specific codepath but there is a R200 specific codepath which looks somewhat worse and runs somewhat faster on the R300 (than ARB2).

Annnnnnywaaaaaay the NV40 should run D3 spectacularly well on the NV30 codepath, and if the rumors are to be believed it should run the ARB2 (full precision) path spectacularly well, too. Undoubtedly the R420 will also perform spectacularly well on the ARB2 codepath, as the R300 apparently does well there.
 
he has also said that due to the reletively simple shaders used in doom3 there is no downside to using partial precision, it makes no difference. also the nv30 render path allows the architecture to work in a x0 mode to do stencil ops, helping performance a lot
 
Originally posted by Merlin45
he has also said that due to the reletively simple shaders used in doom3 there is no downside to using partial precision, it makes no difference. also the nv30 render path allows the architecture to work in a x0 mode to do stencil ops, helping performance a lot
Click to expand...

What is stencil ops?
 
he has also said that due to the reletively simple shaders used in doom3 there is no downside to using partial precision, it makes no difference. also the nv30 render path allows the architecture to work in a x0 mode to do stencil ops, helping performance a lot
Click to expand...

He said there was "no discernable quality difference" re: the shaders, not that there was "no downside". He also responded to this question:

"My interpretation from your .plan :

In terms of Performance :
NV30+NV30-path is faster than NV30+ARB2
NV30+NV30-path is faster than R300+ARB2
R300+ARB2 is faster than NV30+ARB2
R300+R200-path is faster than R300+ARB2

In terms of Quality :
NV30+ARB2 is better than NV30+NV30-path
NV30+ARB2 is better than R300+ARB2
R300+ARB2 is better than NV30+NV30-path
R300+ARB2 is better than R300+R200-path

Am I correct?"
Click to expand...

With this:
Correct.
Click to expand...

Which implies there is a downside, which is difficult if not almost impossible to see (if you're only talking shaders).

From the Reverend's interview.
 
which card will be better with doom3 and hl2
Click to expand...

I'd imagine the NV40 will probably be somewhat better with D3 and the R420 will be somewhat better with HL2. As Merlin has stated, the NV3X and 4X's ability to do stencil ops (no TMU used, no texture applied) in 8x0 and "32x0" (rumored) will probably give it an edge in D3.
The R300 and higher are FP24 parts which will probably allow them to do full DX9 shader precision at a higher speed than FP32/16 parts like the NV3X.
Also, ATI is "featuring" HL2 as nvidia is "featuring" D3. While both of these things happened some time after the start of development of both games, they may play some role.

Of course it's doubtful that the R3XX or NV3X won't be able to play these games at decent resolution anyway...so the next gen. parts should be really good at running both of 'em. Anyway. we're speculating in the dark :)
 
Originally posted by mcryptic
lets not forget that nvidia is "sponsoring" doom 3, so carmack might be inclined to pimp nvidia's cards.
Click to expand...

wtf, the guys insanely wealthy already...he's building a freakin rocket ship to take him into outer space for godsake...
 
That doesn't mean he is right, or his endorsements be taken seriously
Click to expand...

Yes, the mind behind the last decade-plus of first person 3d engine work isn't qualified to give an educated and trusted opinion on a graphics card :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Originally posted by M4d-K10wN
Of course ATi simply ignores the existence of OpenGL. Sure, their Direct3D drivers are up to date, but OpenGL still don't work. Let me rephrase that, they do "work"... to some extent. Although they will do completely wack shit with your games. In some, the effect is minimized to minor quircks, like black lines at the edge of sky tectures, and the pixels arranged in "beehive" pattern. In others (Warcraft III, for one) it goes completely nuts. That includes:

1) Everything floats in a great pool of blackness
2) The contrast is screwed up
3) The lightning is WAY too bright
4) Particle effects are simply missing
5) Some textures disappear when you look from different angles, some will flash wildly at you.
6) When there's a lightning effect near a texture, a texture will become invisible for the duration of the lightning effect.

This only happens if you run Warcraft III in OpenGL mode. It's okay otherwise. Also, none of these problems occur when i run WarIII in OpenGL on my geforce. I ended up returning that radeon; i'm a big fan of OpenGL and run everything in it (if that's possible). Yeah, and Doom III is OpenGL-based.
Click to expand...

Ok, I have a simple question. If a game runs both Open GL and Direct 3D but runs like shit in Open GL why not just run the game in Direct 3D?
 
I don't know why people are already set on 1 video card when both Nvidia and ATI haven't released the cards. NOR is there any benchmarks....how about we all wait to see what these cards can accually do....also remember doom3 was shown on a 9700pro....and hl2 was shown on a 9800pro.....so cant we all just haven patience....:p

DASHlT
 
Originally posted by DASHlT
I don't why people are already set on 1 video card when both Nvidia and ATI haven't released the cards. NOR is there any benchmarks....how about we all wait to see what these cards can accually do....also remember doom3 was shown on a 9700pro....and hl2 was shown on a 9800pro.....so cant we all just haven patience....:p

DASHlT
Click to expand...

Because half the people on this board are avid nvidia or ati fans. Personally I could care less which card is better. I just hope they are somewhere near each other in performance in order to reduce prices. I have no desire to spend $500+ on gfx card. If they are both close in performance I bet they will both be down to $300 in a few months.
 
WHOEVER'S CARD PERFORMS BEST GOES IN MY MACHINE!


In the $400-500 video card class there is only one winner. That has been ATI for a while now. Nvidia may let lose the big guns. Just wait for the cards and maybe think a little more be4 hitting "New Thread". These topics are getting so repetative by turning into mud slinging competitions it's not even close to amusing anymore.
 
Originally posted by Merlin45
Carmack was saying it before Nvidia started sponsoring the game and before ATI leaked it. That implies that it is more likely to be true.
Click to expand...
but are yu certain, that they might allready had a deal, it was just not yet announce.
 
Originally posted by defiant
uhhh I recall the NV30 performing better than R300 in most of the doom 3 benchmarks. B'sides Carmack has always been very candid and forthcoming when it came to his opinions on video card performance.

Just take a look at some of his plan updates to see what im talking about.
Click to expand...

1 thing fan boy :) fact of the matter is
Doom 3 is designed to run on an NVcore, which means it will run better on an Nvidia Card vs an ATI card, im pretty sure they are taking it to XBOX and thats the main reason that and the sponsership :)

so if your goal in gaming is to play Doom 3 games or doom 3 engine based games then go ahead and grab yourself en Nvidia card, no one cant take that from ya. But I personaly think if ati beats nvidia out in DX preformance they are gonna be in for a rough ride.... why? well lets see

FarCry-CryEngine gonna be used for somes games, I heard Ghost Recon 2 will be using it
HalfLife2 engine? you think they might use that for ANY games?
Ut2 engine, there you go again thats 3 different engines vs the Doom 3 Engine and the Quack 3 engine(no offense to quakers :) )

I dunno about you But if preformance margins stay as they are and the 2 cards take their stride in each field, I would bet on the ATI card taking the lead since alot more games can be spawned off the 3 engines listed, I guess HL2 and D3 engines are just as anticipated, but you also got the UT engine AND the CryEngine to look at and for those who have played farcry with its dx9 features running know that its nothing short of WOW
 
Do you believe, from comments of before that Doom 3 will run alright on a 9800XT 256 MB card though, from what's been said?
 
Originally posted by Digital Viper-X-
1 thing fan boy :) fact of the matter is
Doom 3 is designed to run on an NVcore, which means it will run better on an Nvidia Card vs an ATI card, im pretty sure they are taking it to XBOX and thats the main reason that and the sponsership :)

so if your goal in gaming is to play Doom 3 games or doom 3 engine based games then go ahead and grab yourself en Nvidia card, no one cant take that from ya. But I personaly think if ati beats nvidia out in DX preformance they are gonna be in for a rough ride.... why? well lets see

FarCry-CryEngine gonna be used for somes games, I heard Ghost Recon 2 will be using it
HalfLife2 engine? you think they might use that for ANY games?
Ut2 engine, there you go again thats 3 different engines vs the Doom 3 Engine and the Quack 3 engine(no offense to quakers :) )

I dunno about you But if preformance margins stay as they are and the 2 cards take their stride in each field, I would bet on the ATI card taking the lead since alot more games can be spawned off the 3 engines listed, I guess HL2 and D3 engines are just as anticipated, but you also got the UT engine AND the CryEngine to look at and for those who have played farcry with its dx9 features running know that its nothing short of WOW
Click to expand...

Also dont forget about the new Serouis Sam 2 engine <which was running on ATI hardware> Also other popular games like CS2 and TF2 will be DX9....Lets just hope both of these cards are worth the price tags...<hope>

DASHlT
 
Do you believe, from comments of before that Doom 3 will run alright on a 9800XT 256 MB card though, from what's been said?

Along with this, does anyoen know when these new graphic card will be hitting the stores for the public, maybe a certain month, or what they may cost?
 
Originally posted by SadExchange
Do you believe, from comments of before that Doom 3 will run alright on a 9800XT 256 MB card though, from what's been said?

Along with this, does anyoen know when these new graphic card will be hitting the stores for the public, maybe a certain month, or what they may cost?
Click to expand...

Ya you should be fine
 
it doesn't really matter what card is "optimized" for doom 3. Its like saying intel is better than amd because quake 3 was optimized for the p3/p4.
 
Originally posted by Digital Viper-X-
1 thing fan boy :)
Click to expand...

Im a fan boy because I stated a fact? According to Carmack, NV hardware will run doom 3 better than ATI. I didnt say that nvidia was the be and all and end all of all video cards, and neither do i hold that belief. In the end I will get the card that provides the best bang for buck in terms of performance. Thus I would suggest that you remove your head from your arse and learn to read between the lines you dildo head.
 
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