Can You Get PTSD From A Virtual Experience?

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This is just my opinion but, if you claim to have PTSD from a video game, you should be kicked in the nuts by one of our veterans that actually suffers from PTSD.

Virtual environments almost certainly induce genuine anxiety, says Grainne Kirwan, a psychologist who specializes in cybercrime at the Dún Laoghaire Institute of Art, Design, and Technology in Ireland. For example, your physiological and emotional responses to entering a dark alley in a video game may be comparable to those you'd have in a similar real-life situation. "But would it be to the extent of initiating post-traumatic stress disorder? That hasn't been demonstrated," Kirwan says.
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Sure you can, along with $500 to the right doctor, he'll diagnose you with whatever you want. While you're at it, he can diagnose your kid with ADD and hook you up with some adderall.
 
Of course you can, drone pilots can kill people through a computer and it would be naive to think that wouldn't do something to your psychology.
 
Well, that depends...

Situation 1) Soldier monitoring some form of combat drone and killing real people. Sure I can see it as a possibility.

Situation 2) A video game..I believe the opinion of Steve is on the money here. A Swift kick in the nuts and or vagina is in order as No you don't have PTSD or even secondary PTSD.
 
Ducman69 said:
Sure you can, along with $500 to the right doctor, he'll diagnose you with whatever you want. While you're at it, he can diagnose your kid with ADD and hook you up with some adderall.
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And you don't even have to own a kid!
 
yeah, I'm not on that horse--totally because that depends on age. I am totally with SPTSD aspect. You'd be surprised how many medics, nurses and doctors (think psychiatrists) live with this.
 
The brain is funky. People have committed suicide over missing a bus while other people watch their family die and get over it. It's all chemicals and a special forces sniper has the same chemicals coursing around in his brain as an eight year old playing cowadoody. You never know what's going to trigger what.

Fortunately the general population handles mental disorders way better than the military does.
 
tetris42 said:
Of course you can, drone pilots can kill people through a computer and it would be naive to think that wouldn't do something to your psychology.
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Drone pilots are killing real people that really die, not someone that respawns on the other side of the board. Some of their video feed is actually live video of the targeted area, too. Apples to Oranges in my opinion. They can walk outside and see their drone getting new missiles put on after.

---------

That said I think some weaker minded people can get some very negative side effects from regular video games but I don't think it's anywhere close to the level of PTSD. I vividly remember when I first started playing my first ever FPS in multiplayer online. I was camping like my real life depended on it.:eek: All the perks I used were for stealth/hiding/camping. I would camp then shoot a few people and then move. When they came back to look for me in that spot I'd shoot them again from a different spot and then move again....lol. So many people hated me. It took me awhile to just say fuck it and go berzerk throwing C4 at peoples faces and taking out their team with a javelin.

Then a couple years later I had to quit playing all video games because I was wasting too much of my life playing video games. I started playing video games late in life and stopped playing them early in life. I haven't played a single video game in over two years. I get an itch every once in a while but I may just have an STD. :p

/rant
 
at the chemical level, the brain isn't going to distinguish between virtual or real, tangible and live or on a screen (tv, movie, or view cam).

we personally try and make those distinctions, but once it lodges in the memory regions there's no difference between what you actually experienced, what you think you experienced, or even what someone told you that you experienced (even if it's not true)

at our memory lab we walk people through exercises that they couldn't possibly have experienced as children and then demonstrate to them how fallible their memory is. it's extremely problematic because eye witness testimony is the gold standard in criminal prosecutions and it's the least reliable evidence.
 
mope54 said:
at the chemical level, the brain isn't going to distinguish between virtual or real, tangible and live or on a screen (tv, movie, or view cam).

we personally try and make those distinctions, but once it lodges in the memory regions there's no difference between what you actually experienced, what you think you experienced, or even what someone told you that you experienced (even if it's not true)
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If true (I have no idea if it is but I don't think it is), it would indicate video games could cause some people to become violent if overexposed. I'm no expert in this area though but I assume our brains can distinguish the difference between real and fake. When I watch a movie I get really into it if it's good but when it's over I don't keep living the movie. I wasn't really apart of it.
 
Dimethyltryptamine said:
If true (I have no idea if it is but I don't think it is), it would indicate video games could cause some people to become violent if overexposed. I'm no expert in this area though but I assume our brains can distinguish the difference between real and fake. When I watch a movie I get really into it if it's good but when it's over I don't keep living the movie. I wasn't really apart of it.
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while we are experiencing the event we can differentiate between real and non-real because we have learned what is and what is not real.

that's a different statement from what I wrote, however. Once that event is lodged in our memory there is no way for brain to differentiate from real or non-real at the chemical level. We can file it away as a virtual experience, for example, but the actual physiological processes that retain memory aren't different for different types of memories (you don't use chemical A for a real memory and chemical B for a fake memory, for example).

Over time we can forget that a memory was real or non-real. In fact, once enough time passes we can't even differentiate between a real or fake memory. People hold false memories of things their parents told them when they were children and they've held onto that belief their entire lives. If you'd like to learn more on the processing of false memories, look up Elizabeth Loftus' work.
 
that said, there are other factors that would lead one to be concerned about virtual violence in regards to PTS.

The research I do regarding PTS, and the work I do with veterans, has brought about a new kind of care--one that veterans on this board are familiar with if they're being attended by a competent facility. We now use more refined methods of therapy called Trauma Informed Care.

One of the understands we now have is that people respond to various levels of trauma in a variety of way and that each has a different threshold (a different floor) for when they can't process the event in a healthy way. Twisted Kindey alluded to this phenomenon in his post.

Someone could have been abused as a child and have a different response to trauma than the soldier next to him who developed in a relatively healthy environment. Both see the same event, but one is permanently scarred whereas the other processes the trauma fairly healthily. Trying to figure out what those trauma thresholds are and one's specific trigger points is where we're currently at in the research.
 
I definitely think that you can. If it's a traumatic experience. Are there anything currently that can induce it? I highly doubt it. Losing your avatar in WoW is not like losing a real tangible irretrievable friend or even close to that.
 
mope54 said:
Once that event is lodged in our memory there is no way for the brain to differentiate from real or non-real at the chemical level. We can file it away as a virtual experience, for example, but the actual physiological processes that retain memory aren't different for different types of memories (you don't use chemical A for a real memory and chemical B for a fake memory, for example).
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The human brain has to be able to on a chemical level and I don't think there not being two chemicals, one for real and one for fake, proves anything. The main (only) chemical (if there is only one, I don't know) could have multiple functions. I dream, I remember some of my dreams, they're stored at the chemical level, and I don't ever confuse those dreams with reality. I'll never sit here and say, "was I really jumping/floating over power lines in low gravity worried about getting tangled in the power lines". A recurring dream I've had probably ten times over the years.....lol. It's definitely stored at the chemical level because I know I've been in that dream before when I'm dreaming it but I'd never mistake if for real life. The funniest part is I've gotten better at avoiding the power lines in that dream. :D

Over time we can forget that a memory was real or non-real.
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This is more like the exception to the rule. Like a glitch. This isn't a normal process.

In fact, once enough time passes we can't even differentiate between a real or fake memory.
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I definitely disagree with this. Of course I know what was real and what was just in my head. If what you said was true we'd all be walking around thinking what we dreamt at night really happened.

People hold false memories of things their parents told them when they were children and they've held onto that belief their entire lives.
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Still the exception to the rule. Few and far in between. My parents are super religious and told me all about religion as a child and as an adult I don't believe any of it. I don't hold the false memories they instilled in me, not as real anyway. If this happens to some people more than the norm I think they have a bigger than normal glitch in their reality filter.

Like I said I don't know a lot about this but my gut tells me to disagree with this thinking. The human mind is still very unknown to us on a lot of levels and I don't think our current knowledge on it is where it ends. If video games are giving people PTSD than dreams can too and that seems like something our minds just wouldn't allow to happen. Then again this isn't my area of expertise but I've never seen someones life ruined over a dream they had either.
 
pothb said:
I definitely think that you can. If it's a traumatic experience. Are there anything currently that can induce it? I highly doubt it. Losing your avatar in WoW is not like losing a real tangible irretrievable friend or even close to that.
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Losing your hardcore character in Diablo 3 maybe? :D
 
tetris42 said:
Of course you can, drone pilots can kill people through a computer and it would be naive to think that wouldn't do something to your psychology.
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And it would be pretty naive to think that shooting pixels in a computer game is even remotely psychologically the the same as pressing the fire button on a mobile weapon platform that will end with someone actually dying.

If someone is getting traumatized by a video game on the same level as someone suffering from PTSD, then they have some mental deficiencies.
 
cageymaru said:
Losing your hardcore character in Diablo 3 maybe? :D
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I was thinking that it was more of something you can build up agian, if lost. Even a hardcore char can be rebuilt.

But I see your argument there.:p
 
I don't know. I still sometimes hear those evil little monkeys from System Shock II chattering away just barely audible around the next corner. But being able to claim PTSD over a virtual world? I think that is a stretch.

I have heard of people killing themselves over virtual romances, or having their D&D character killed. But I always chocked that up to some individuals just breaking easier than others.
 
pothb said:
I definitely think that you can. If it's a traumatic experience. Are there anything currently that can induce it? I highly doubt it. Losing your avatar in WoW is not like losing a real tangible irretrievable friend or even close to that.
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those are called triggers.

I have them all the time and at different times. Sometimes a certain noise, smell or dialogue could get me going.

So here's the thing with video games, and we cant be ignorant to the fact that young ones may feel as they're one with a character or environment. Needless to say, their reality is altered and thus exposes them to PTS like anyone else. Personally, I think there's another factor not discussed like an underlying diagnoses....think Attention Deficit and Bipolar disorder. Mix the two and why couldn't they get down with some PTSD.

Also, I submit, what do you call a kid who has nightmares due to a horror game or movie? Is it possible the translation is what's being implied in the article?

On the outside though, it does seem like it would be rare if only because it's the first time I've heard it and PTSD is a term thrown around too loosely....and I have it lol.
 
The thing about it is, it has to be a traumatic experience. Unless they are so absorbed in the game that they would pretty much kill themselves over it, I doubt they would get a "trigger" (and yes I know what it's called, stupid SJW people try to use this crap all the time and it's fucking retarded, that they would use it in such a way) otherwise.

I don't think gamers, hardcore or not, are "that" invested in games. If they are they would probably be messed up mentally, like with autism or something.
 
That's what this boils down to. And that's the X factor here. What is perceived as traumatic.

Trauma in the sense on an injury post automobile accident, though that too can incite PTSD. The experience had to jolt their senses to a point that they've become hypersensitive to the triggers. It doesn't have to be grenades and IEDs. Anyway, there's no academic sources or evidenced based research as of now to prove or disprove any of this. It is however interesting that when we get the dialogue going, some don't understand the premise of PTSD in the first place.
 
I would edit my last post but i cant lol.....get the jist.
 
At first glance, it looks stupid. Then again, games are getting better and better at looking more realistic. Have you seen the Silent Hill tech demo? I can see how that can harm someones psychology.
 
Dimethyltryptamine said:
Then again this isn't my area of expertise
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It is my area of expertise and I explained to you the current research on the topic. If you want to dispute it based on gut reactions then that's your prerogative, but the things you're disagreeing over have already been demonstrated to be the opposite of what you believe.

pothb said:
The thing about it is, it has to be a traumatic experience.
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There does have to be a singular, traumatic event to induce PTS.

Pkirk618 said:
That's what this boils down to. And that's the X factor here. What is perceived as traumatic.

Trauma in the sense on an injury post automobile accident, though that too can incite PTSD. The experience had to jolt their senses to a point that they've become hypersensitive to the triggers. It doesn't have to be grenades and IEDs. Anyway, there's no academic sources or evidenced based research as of now to prove or disprove any of this. It is however interesting that when we get the dialogue going, some don't understand the premise of PTSD in the first place.
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It's true that we don't have a whole lot of research telling us why some people experience PTS for the same, or similar, experience as another. That's what I've been pioneering for the past decade. We have a lot of information with regards to war veterans, but not much in regards to other ex-civilians (police officers, correctional officers, and prisoners specifically).

Much of my work is focused on the abuse and neglect suffered as a child that seems to have significant explanatory power as to who is and who is not more or less susceptible to PTS--or perhaps more accurately described as what creates an individual's threshold.

In any case, I just wanted to let you know that there are data supporting what you've stated. We have some great scholars working our butts off to figure out what we can ASAP. Vets themselves are working at the grass-roots level, too. It was actually veteran circles that provided the bulk of informal support to previously incarcerated people (both populations tend to interpret relatively innocuous events as life-threatening incidents and it just so turns out that we were all calling each other to talk us down from whatever ledges we'd gotten ourselves out on--and that was when I started thinking about the similarities between the populations back in graduate school and then eventually wrote my dissertation on).

That was a few years back and man it amazes me just how little we know about it. Although things are changing quickly. There's some good, solid research coming out of SF State, I know one of my friends (and veteran) at Oregon State been focusing on this for decades, and myself coming out of another large California research institution. Loftus has her memory lab at another large California research institution (although, again she focuses on false memory her research has implications for us studying PTS as the second link discusses)

http://injusticebusters.org/04/Loftus_Elizabeth.shtml
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2003/dec/04/science.research1
 
*should be "does not have to be a singular, traumatic event"

sorry
 
for the record I was referring to scholar lit about video games. Not vets with PTSD and TBI.
 
anyway, the research is constantly evolving. You see this within our VA infrastructure when vets apply for disability. The compensation and pension examinations are too quick, convoluted and only provide a snapshot of a vet in a space of 10 minutes, not over the span of two or three deployments that in a perfect world would have substantial narratives documenting their behaviors.

To that point, our c/p system is flawed and vets aren't being diagnosed correctly. I see vets with 50% rating for PTSD and are literally non-functional due to their injuries/dx. If we can't accurately assess brain trauma, how in the hell do we really think we're ready to study kids playing in virtual augmented reality? It's just the beginning of some dialogue, that's all. Better than nothing I guess.
 
mope54 said:
*should be "does not have to be a singular, traumatic event"

sorry
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Okay.... but I didn't say it had to be singular. Just that it has to be a traumatic event. If it's a series of events or an event that encompasses more events, that's fine too. The idea I was trying to state is that it has to be traumatic.

Need me to clear anything else, you want to pick out?
 
pothb said:
Okay.... but I didn't say it had to be singular. Just that it has to be a traumatic event. If it's a series of events or an event that encompasses more events, that's fine too. The idea I was trying to state is that it has to be traumatic.

Need me to clear anything else, you want to pick out?
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No need for the hostility, but when you write "a traumatic event" that indicates you believe it to be a singular event.

In any case, just to reiterate what Pkirk618 and I already stated earlier: that what constitutes traumatic for one person is different for another. Simply because you don't think something(s) is/are traumatic does not diminish what someone else understands as traumatic.
 
mope54 said:
It is my area of expertise and I explained to you the current research on the topic. If you want to dispute it based on gut reactions then that's your prerogative, but the things you're disagreeing over have already been demonstrated to be the opposite of what you believe.
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You're right, it's what people are thinking happens right now and we all know things change, a lot. Still, I disagree with the ridiculousness that the brain can't distinguish real from not real at the chemical level. Your current research won't change that. You might know about PTSD but I know enough about my mind. Anyone that "there is no way for brain to differentiate from real or non-real at the chemical level" has issues, at the chemical level, IMO.
 
I dunno, I'm a schizophrenic, and watching horror movies/shows can trigger a psychotic break for me
 
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