Can Flash Be Saved?

[Terry Olaes]

There has been a lot of hate toward Adobe and Flash in particular lately. With the recent revelation that the iPad will not support Flash, a lot of scrutiny has been placed on Adobe. Apple doesn’t turn away from a popular service lightly and they’re not the only ones, according to popular blogger Robert Scoble.

Google is widely seen as the only company right now that is challenging Apple at all (and even then, Google’s Android is clearly #2 in the race and doesn’t look like it will be able to challenge iPhone/iPad this year). After playing a bunch of great games on the iPhone, I don’t agree with the claims that Flash is needed anymore. If Adobe is losing people like me and the developers that decide the future of the web, they are in big trouble.

 

[Nemesis999]

Lets hope not.

 

[DrVal]

Saved? Saved?

Isn't it very much the top dog right now? How does it need to be saved? If Apple doesn't want flash to be on their devices, that doesn't mean it's killing Flash. I'm not saying it's not (like most of Adobe's products) a steaming pile of manure, but something that has a fraction of the market share isn't going to kill it.

 

[Zellio2010]

Yeah, lets move from flash and pcs to paid shitty apps and iTampons.

Going from flash to iPads is like moving on from human shit to elephant shit.

 

[Elledan]

Flash is needed on the iPad if it's to be useful for browsing websites. Entire websites like Youtube become unusable as well as parts of countless other sites. I notice that after installing a fresh copy of Firefox I generally end up installing Flash via its plugin installer within a day when I encounter a site where I need it.

 

[IronChef75]

I have no love for Flash, but if it's going to become less relevant then I'd prefer it to be for the right reasons, and not because of the actions of a smug, self-serving Nazi company like Apple.

 

[Zellio2010]

I have no love for Flash, but if it's going to become less relevant then I'd prefer it to be for the right reasons, and not because of the actions of a smug, self-serving Nazi company like Apple.

It won't be Apple who kills it, it would be the iHerd full of iDiots buying iProducts.

 

[niconx]

I don't like Adobe because Flash is so neglected and unstable.

I don't like Apple because of the "I want to own everything" attitude they have.

I don't like Google because they push h.264 which isn't free for use by anyone.

I'm sad now

 

[Ashbringer]

Apple doesn't support flash because of security reasons. By security reasons, I mean flash ads.

I sucks not to have flash, and smart phone owners know this well. I visit newgrounds and lots of flashed base websites, and it seriously sucks not to have it.

With Firefox reaching 1.0 for mobile phones, I can't see iPhones lasting without flash support.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Flash is needed on the iPad if it's to be useful for browsing websites. Entire websites like Youtube become unusable as well as parts of countless other sites. I notice that after installing a fresh copy of Firefox I generally end up installing Flash via its plugin installer within a day when I encounter a site where I need it.

html5 & compliant browsers (that safari is) removes the need for flash on youtube

 

[eeyrjmr]

Apple doesn't support flash because of security reasons. By security reasons, I mean flash ads.

I sucks not to have flash, and smart phone owners know this well. I visit newgrounds and lots of flashed base websites, and it seriously sucks not to have it.

With Firefox reaching 1.0 for mobile phones, I can't see iPhones lasting without flash support.

If you have had said stability then sure I would accept that. But on security Apple are slow at patching and/or acknowledging security flaws

 

[DEJAL]

"After playing a bunch of great games on the iPhone, I don’t agree with the claims that Flash is needed anymore."

Someone should clue Robert Scoble that the iPhone is not THE gateway to the Internet the last time I looked. It is A gateway. Good for him that he won't miss it. Most of us don't care one way or the other what drives the web page, but we do care that it is there.

 

[IronChef75]

Apple doesn't support flash because of security reasons.

Bullshit. Apple don't support Flash because it can be used to create viable applications that would bypass the App Store. Apple want complete control over want you can and can't do with their products for the sole reason of being able to charge for every single damn thing do. They sure as hell aren't going to allow a flash based, cross-platform application to run on their product and disrupt their revenue and control.

They banned a Commodore 64 emulator from the App Store because it could be used to develop and distribute applications. What a pack of assholes.

 

[DudeItsMe]

Well I'm not the biggest fan of Apple, but I can see why someone would be getting sick and tired of Adobe. Their programs have somehow managed to still be the longest install ever, even slower than installing a new copy of XP, Vista, or Windows 7 (especially Windows 7). Even if they're all from a thumb drive.

Some of Adobe's applications have no mult-threading support (Acrobat) where it is much needed. And they recently terminated the Print Partner program that my company has been a member of for years.

I think it would be great if there were more alternatives to Adobe stuff, but so far it's not happening. I'm not sure just ignoring them and gimping a device is the way to go about it either.

 

[OldSchoolCoder]

For what it's worth, the next version of HTML (HTML5) includes a specification for audio and video support, making the need for proprietary plug-ins obsolete. This will be a good thing, leveling the playing field for developers and users, especially on open source operating systems.

Besides, even today Flash is already dead. Most of the major networks have already switched over to the Move media player or Silverlight. I hope all of the proprietary players go away soon.

 

[IronChef75]

I'm amazed Apple haven't developed iFlash yet, and tricked everyone into installing it with the latest round of 'updates' for iTunes.

 

[B2BigAl]

This is asinine. Apple doesn't support flash on their mobile devices because if the did, everyone would just play free flash games instead of paying for stuff in the app store. Flash is used everywhere, in web pages, media players, games, etc.. and their decision not to support it is purely for financial gain. We the customers are the ones who end up losing out. Mark my word, as soon as there is any sort of viable competitor to the iphone that supports flash, apple will magically have a change of heart.

 

[Snowdog]

Besides, even today Flash is already dead. Most of the major networks have already switched over to the Move media player or Silverlight. I hope all of the proprietary players go away soon.

How is Silverlight better. It is essentially just Microsofts version of Flash.

But save flash??? No thanks. Flash is the number one annoyance generator on the web. I will cheer if it croaks.

 

[Techx]

Agreed, and to this day i have never spent a single dime on ANY apple product.. THAT is the real way to voice your opinion, its way more powerful than anything, including forums posts that become obsolete after a week

 

[Techx]

Agreed, and to this day i have never spent a single dime on ANY apple product.. THAT is the real way to voice your opinion, its way more powerful than anything, including forums posts that become obsolete after a week

Sorry. I was agreeing to Ironchefs post 13

 

[DanNeely]

That's not entirely true. While HTML5 does contain a <Video> tag, open codecs have been consistently a generation or more behind closed ones in performance (eg the current h.264 situation). Unless someone with deep enough pockets to change that fact steps up Flash/Quicktime/Silverlight/etc based players will always be able to either stream equivalent quality in roughly half the bandwidth; or to stream at higher quality level/resolution than HTML5 video.

 

[ProfessorKaos64]

Too bad about flash, Silverlight is decent but not yet adopted fully. But there needs to be a platform that's universal, not proprietary like on Apples devices. Adobe could resurrect flash if given enough criticism. I'd rather hear such things from official sources however, not for a blogger.

 

[Elledan]

html5 & compliant browsers (that safari is) removes the need for flash on youtube

Not quite. At least not any time soon. The issue is that the used codec has to be supported by the browser or whatever library it uses for decoding. At this point only 1 or 2 browsers somewhat work with the HTML5 version of Youtube because they insist on using h.264, which is a proprietary codec, requiring licensing on the side of the one encoding and the one decoding. Unless they live outside the US of course where software patents don't exist.

Firefox tries to deal with this by using GStreamer, an existing video library which has apparently already coughed up the licensing fees for h.264.

Flash video is easy. HTML5 video opens a really big can of worms mostly due to the retarded idea of software patents which will slow down its adoption.

 

[fendee1]

what the hell a we talking about, this would not be discussed if apple supported it. um the world goes on and apple gets left behind period.....you install a operating system add some browsers,flash, codecs ,antivius you done. What if you only could use one browser one video player...what..,,,Freedom of choice.. lets have competition...

 

[xX_Jack_Carver_Xx]

Adobe: I'd like a medium Flash please.

AppNazi (tm): NO FLASH FOR YOU!!

Nothing is stopping Adobe from putting flash itampon on the ipad. If Apple refuses to cooperate they have a killer lawsuit for restraint of trade.

So blame Adobe as well. Plus, they could make flash better safe faster and more secure. But that would require .... work.

 

[Acoustique]

go away apple, hopefully this "cool computer accessory" fad goes away soon, and so will your sales & you for the next decade.

 

[Parmenides]

This is like one of those football games where you hate both teams, and wish they would both lose the game.

 

[blitzkommando]

This is like one of those football games where you hate both teams, and wish they would both lose the game.

Precisely.

Flash is the number one cause of browser crashes for me. In fact, out of all of the browser crashes I've had for the past few years the only other cause was Java. Frankly I would like to see Flash disappear as it is the number one annoyance I have with browsing. That said, it's a bit of a catch 22. I hate it with a passion, but I also realize it is a necessary evil in order to be able to have worthwhile browsing online. In the end, Adobe still gathers my ire and Apple is just making yet another boneheaded move.

 

[eeyrjmr]

Not quite. At least not any time soon. The issue is that the used codec has to be supported by the browser or whatever library it uses for decoding. At this point only 1 or 2 browsers somewhat work with the HTML5 version of Youtube because they insist on using h.264, which is a proprietary codec, requiring licensing on the side of the one encoding and the one decoding. Unless they live outside the US of course where software patents don't exist.

Firefox tries to deal with this by using GStreamer, an existing video library which has apparently already coughed up the licensing fees for h.264.

Flash video is easy. HTML5 video opens a really big can of worms mostly due to the retarded idea of software patents which will slow down its adoption.

Thats why I said compliant. HTML5 is still in flux esp w.r.t. codec for <video> and <audio>

 

[Azhar]

Flash is needed on the iPad if it's to be useful for browsing websites. Entire websites like Youtube become unusable as well as parts of countless other sites. I notice that after installing a fresh copy of Firefox I generally end up installing Flash via its plugin installer within a day when I encounter a site where I need it.

html5 & compliant browsers (that safari is) removes the need for flash on youtube

YouTube is supported on iPhones, iPods, and iPads regardless of the lack of Flash.

 

[eeyrjmr]

YouTube is supported on iPhones, iPods, and iPads regardless of the lack of Flash.

*sigh* because of html5 and webkit (the toolkit used on the i*) is HTML5 complaint & apple is licensed to use h.264 (NOTE youtube can now do its vids via html5)

come on show some critical thinking and ability to follow a thread past 1 post...

 

[Azhar]

*sigh* because of html5 and webkit (the toolkit used on the i*) is HTML5 complaint & apple is licensed to use h.264 (NOTE youtube can now do its vids via html5)

come on show some critical thinking and ability to follow a thread past 1 post...

You can teach people how things work without being an ass, you know. I know about HTML5. What I didn't know was that the iPhone had it for more than a year now. I thought it was a relatively new thing.

 

[InorganicMatter]

Hope not, Flash can DIAFF.

 

[Kelv]

I find flash to be much more stable than HTML5 with youtube atm. I never really have all the problems that you guys seem to have with flash. Hopefully HTML5 does improve though.

 

[BGK]

I hope Flash dies and adobe goes bankrupt.

 

[Parmenides]

HTML5 isn't exactly new, it's just that web developers can't exactly go head first 100% into it (even though they'd love too), because many people are still surfing on outdated browsers like IE6.

 

[keenan]

h.264, which is a proprietary codec

There is an important distinction between 'open' and 'free'. h.264 is not proprietary, it is fully open. Anyone can obtain full technical documentation, and anyone can implement it however they want on whatever device they want to. That makes it open. It's just not free, as there are patent concerns involved.

Firefox tries to deal with this by using GStreamer, an existing video library which has apparently already coughed up the licensing fees for h.264.

GStreamer is just a media framework, analogous to DirectShow, it doesn't include any codecs itself. Anyway, Firefox doesn't leverage GStreamer and doesn't include support for h.264. Mozilla developer Robert O'Callahan has blogged about this recently. It seems very unlikely that Firefox will ever support h.264 video.

Dirac shows a lot of promise as a royalty free option.

Oh and of course Flash needs to die. Mobile devices will drive its death more than anything else; not the iPad specifically, but just the large number of different platforms and devices out there will dilute Adobe's marketshare a great deal.

 

[Ryokurin]

How is Silverlight better. It is essentially just Microsofts version of Flash.

For one, it supports hardware acceleration on the Mac, which Adobe refuses to do because Apple wants all of those types of calls to go through the Quicktime subsystem. It's still is hardware acceleration but because it's basically not how Microsoft does it, they won't budge.

If Adobe can't support their products properly on macs, Apple rightfully don't expect it to be supported well on a phone either.

 

[OldSchoolCoder]

Ok, but my point was that html5 was a step in the right direction.

The sites that have chosen move or silverlight over flash seem to have better interactivity with the video (perhaps more tivo-like), and or for reasons of better video quality especially with live sports where fast action and data compression are more difficult to do with the high levels of compression required.

 

[xxEIEIOxx]

Hope not, Flash can DIAFF.

This.

I get tired of flash and malicious PDF files being something I constantly have to worry about. And we don't have to worry about a 64 bit version if it just dies and goes away.