Can FIOS be shared like this?

[DellAxim]

I lease a small commercial building for my business and I badly need internet access there. I really really really don't want another $60+ bill for a good connection like I have at home. I was looking at Verizon's FIOS business internet service - 35mbps up and down for $99. That's too much for me but I could easily share it with some of my commercial neighbors, who already pay $50+ for their own internet connections.

I understand if you tried to share like this, or run a server with FIOS residential service, you can get the death sentence. It clearly says that in their terms. But when I read the terms for the "business" FIOS, I don't see anything forbidding sharing. I can't find the word "sharing" on their website, period.

Does anybody know if FIOS business allows sharing with anybody in range? Kind of like the service they might use at a coffee shop or other hotspot? You're not "allowed" to do this with most any residential service, but I'm sure you all know there are hotspots everywhere these days. What kind of connections do they use?

 

[Cyberbeing]

Well it is against the Terms of Service to resell your service.

Your responsibilities. You represent that you are eighteen (18) years of age or older, that you have the power and the legal authority to enter into this Agreement, and that the information you supply to us is correct and complete. You acknowledge and agree that you are solely responsible for all use of the Service (including the use of any secondary or sub-accounts associated with a primary account) and the manner in which the Service is used by you or anyone who uses the Service with or without your permission. If you use a wireless router or similar device, you are responsible for securing your wireless network and for any use of the Service via your wireless network. You may not resell the Service to third parties. You also agree to use the Service only within the United States.

 

[DellAxim]

It's more a matter of who I'm allowed to share with rather than reselling. We would be sharing the bill and splitting it based on the number of users, the same way we do with our power and water service. It would not be resold for a profit.

Aside from money, am I allowed to share a business connection with whoever I want to?

 

[xphil3]

Sure, its against their ToS but the real question you need to ask yourself is do you want to talk all liability for the people that you sell/split the service with(as you would be the account holder). Verizon will not be able to tell if you're sharing/re-selling the service, especially if its a business account as they could never know how many employees that you have, etc.

If you trust the person who you're going to be sharing the service with, then the decision should be easy. If not, well..... you should know the answer to that as well.

 

[DellAxim]

the real question you need to ask yourself is do you want to talk all liability for the people that you sell/split the service with(as you would be the account holder).

What kind of liability? As I understand it I wouldn't be responsible for anything bad they might do on the internet, the same way Starbucks doesn't get arrested if someone uses their internet badly. Am I wrong?

That said I don't think it would be much of an issue...these are businesses, only their owners would be using the service. One is a devout catholic. Nobody there really has a heavy need for internet, but it seems kind of silly for us each to pay $50+ a month for a slower connection.

Let me just put it this way - since they're my neighbors, I wouldn't be worried if UPS dropped off a package to the neighbor and they held it for me.

 

[stuh84]

What kind of liability? As I understand it I wouldn't be responsible for anything bad they might do on the internet, the same way Starbucks doesn't get arrested if someone uses their internet badly. Am I wrong?

Unfortunately you are, because this is still a customer based product. Starbucks are set up with their own profile with whatever ISP they are using, so it will be understood that it isn't Starbucks surfing porn sites and warez forums.

However, given you will be one customer, all onus will come down to the account holder in this case. Regardless of it being a business line, you are still liable. Given the fact that you'd already be breaking the T&C of the contract by sharing it with others (yes, it seems silly, but even if you aren't selling it, it's still technically frowned upon), then trying to say to the ISP "It wasn't me, it was those who I shared it with", they'll come back with "You aren't supposed to be sharing it anyway, therefore you are liable"

 

[InvisiBill]

What stuh84 said. Starbucks and ISPs get "safe harbor" provisions because they're operating as service providers. In the same way that AT&T isn't responsible for you making prank calls to your neighbor even though they provide the phone line, ISPs aren't responsible for what their customers do with the provided internet connection.

If you try to use a safe harbor defense, you're essentially admitting that you're subletting your internet connection, which gets you in trouble under the other clause. In order to avoid the issues related to reselling your internet connection, you have to assume that "we" (the people sharing the connection) == "the customer". If you're the named customer on the account, then anything done on that connection is done "by you" in their eyes.

Technically, a business with a "regular" internet connection wouldn't be allowed to share it out to their customers via free WiFi. It will depend on their plan's ToS, but most simply forbid it. However, a few people checking their email during lunch is probably less demanding than a common power user doing their perfectly acceptable (per the ToS) activities, so it most likely isn't a strain on the ISP's network and therefore they ignore it.

Do any ISPs still offer the option of multiple IPs on a regular consumer/small business account? Back in the pre-router days, cable companies would sell you extra IPs for $5 a month so you could hook up multiple computers. If you can still do something like that with FIOS, you could get an IP for each of you. It adds a few bucks a month, but then you'd each have your own public IP as if you had your own connections. You could easily add your own NAT routers so your business wouldn't be sharing a LAN with others. If it really came down to something horrible like child porn, having separate IPs could be a lifesaver, even if you are forced to admit that you were sharing the connection against the ToS. And since you're specifically paying the ISP for more connections, you're sort of telling them up front that you're using multiple devices on it.

Whether or not you're legally allowed to share the connection with others in the same building is really a question for a lawyer, but I would think a business connection with multiple IPs in one shared building is about as safe as you're going to get. Unfortunately, the ToS is usually pretty dumb, and forbids things that most average customers do and which shouldn't really affect the ISP's network, but has loopholes that allow for things which can cause major network issues. It's another case of legal junk not keeping up with technology and common sense.

 

[DellAxim]

Ok, everybody keeps pointing to the ToS, but where does it say in there I can't share the connection? Remember residential FIOS is different than business FIOS. In the residential ToS that I read, it's quite obvious that sharing your connection is not allowed. However, when I read the business ToS, I saw no mention of that. Of course they don't specifically say you CAN, either.

Hosting a web server is ok with FIOS business internet, isn't it? I don't see connection sharing as much different. What if I ran an email server and someone was emailing child porn?

 

[Shockey]

Ok, everybody keeps pointing to the ToS, but where does it say in there I can't share the connection? Remember residential FIOS is different than business FIOS. In the residential ToS that I read, it's quite obvious that sharing your connection is not allowed. However, when I read the business ToS, I saw no mention of that. Of course they don't specifically say you CAN, either.

Hosting a web server is ok with FIOS business internet, isn't it? I don't see connection sharing as much different. What if I ran an email server and someone was emailing child porn?

Why don't you just call them and ask directly? They they ones providing the service, so they would know.

Just don't give them any personal information about your business or yourself

 

[Grentz]

Call and ask them.

If you don't feel they would let you when you can, you probably shouldn't do it anyways.

 

[InvisiBill]

Ok, everybody keeps pointing to the ToS, but where does it say in there I can't share the connection? Remember residential FIOS is different than business FIOS. In the residential ToS that I read, it's quite obvious that sharing your connection is not allowed. However, when I read the business ToS, I saw no mention of that. Of course they don't specifically say you CAN, either.

I was basing it on the quote above. If your ToS is different, well, go by that. It's based on whatever legal document you sign, not what some guy on the intarwebs says. If you don't read the whole ToS or don't understand it (or even misinterpret it), that's your own fault. If you're unsure about the ToS, talk to the ISP and/or get a lawyer. Generally speaking though, it's very rare for them to allow sharing. It hurts their business model.

Hosting a web server is ok with FIOS business internet, isn't it? I don't see connection sharing as much different.

Your ToS will determine what you can do with your connection. You may or may not be allowed to run servers. Most business connections will allow it, but there's nothing set in stone. Most home connections are very asymmetrical, since people usually download a lot more than they upload. With a server, you're generally uploading more. Servers don't fit in well with how they provision home connections, so they don't allow it. Business connections are usually more symmetrical and therefore they usually allow servers. There may be details about what services you can or can't provide and/or how much bandwidth you can use.

That has absolutely nothing to do with them wanting to sell internet service to both of you, rather than having you buy a package and share it with the other guy. It's exactly the same as buying multiple copies of Windows for multiple PCs. Sure, you could get by with 3 different people's accounts on one PC, but Microsoft's rule is that if you want each person to have their own PC, you need to buy 3 copies of Windows. Depending on your ToS, you may or may not be allowed to share that connection with others.

What if I ran an email server and someone was emailing child porn?

It would be exactly the same. If you operate as a service provider, you can claim safe harbor. You're simply providing a service to the end user, and the end user is choosing how to use that service. If you operate as a consumer and sneak someone else onto your connection, you're now responsible for whatever they do on your connection.

 

[xphil3]

What kind of liability? As I understand it I wouldn't be responsible for anything bad they might do on the internet, the same way Starbucks doesn't get arrested if someone uses their internet badly. Am I wrong?

Read Invisibills post, its perfectly stated. You would be technically offering a service that Verizon does not know your offering. Even if you claimed that you didn't do said illegal activities, the blame would be placed soley on you.

Ok, everybody keeps pointing to the ToS, but where does it say in there I can't share the connection? Remember residential FIOS is different than business FIOS. In the residential ToS that I read, it's quite obvious that sharing your connection is not allowed. However, when I read the business ToS, I saw no mention of that. Of course they don't specifically say you CAN, either.

Hosting a web server is ok with FIOS business internet, isn't it? I don't see connection sharing as much different. What if I ran an email server and someone was emailing child porn?

1. Read cyberbeings post, its a copy from verizons business ToS. Its very easily found on their webpage, check it out.

2. If you offer public email and someone did put child porn on your server it would be VERY easy for any government agency to prosecute you if THEY see fit. Safe harbor provision law RARELY covers child pornography, especially if you're not a major provider(IE. sharing a connection).

 

[DellAxim]

1. Read cyberbeings post, its a copy from verizons business ToS. Its very easily found on their webpage, check it out.

I've read it, I've yet to see where it says you can't share your connection, that's what I'm looking for. I'm not trying to resell it. Sharing is different, we'd all share the bill equally. Imagine we were all roomates who shared the connection and split the bill. Same kind of thing.

Or for that matter I could share it with the neighbors for free, and they can donate 25 bucks a month to me for being such a nice guy. We already do the same thing with electricity, gas, and water. We do not have individual meters, mutiple people split one bill.

So just what kind of connection do "legal" hotspots use if not a standard business line? They're everywhere these days, I can't imagine they all have a dedicated T3 or something else outrageously expensive.

 

[xphil3]

I've read it, I've yet to see where it says you can't share your connection, that's what I'm looking for. I'm not trying to resell it. Sharing is different, we'd all share the bill equally. Imagine we were all roomates who shared the connection and split the bill. Same kind of thing.

I would say there is a thin line between selling and sharing as far as your ISP see's it. If you dont trust the ToS, its time for you to call them as ask them specifics.

Also, I disagree with your analogy.... in this case, you would be sharing internet to another domicile. This is a potential loss of business for Verizon, and this is probably how they would see it. If you have roomates, they obviously live in the same place that you do and by Verizon policy.. one ONT/connection per domicile.

but again, if you decide to share the internet with anyone and you're the account holder you will be 100% responsible for THEIR actions. Just keep that in mind

 

[Adam12176]

This is a pretty funny read. The fact that you have to throw out a bunch of analogies to try and justify it should satisfy your curiosity in terms of legality and morals.

It seems as if you expected a bunch of people to just say 'do it man, nothing bad can come from this, you're completely right' - there are a bunch of examples above where you are 100% wrong. Stop trying to defend your idea and take the criticism - and move on to some other fruitful venture for saving money.

 

[gimp]

sharing = no money changing hands except for you paying the bill.

reselling service = somebody giving you money for part of your internet connection.

have questions? Call up Verizon, inform them of the situation, and ask them to clarify the ToS.

 

[InvisiBill]

I've read it, I've yet to see where it says you can't share your connection, that's what I'm looking for. I'm not trying to resell it. Sharing is different, we'd all share the bill equally. Imagine we were all roomates who shared the connection and split the bill. Same kind of thing.

Or for that matter I could share it with the neighbors for free, and they can donate 25 bucks a month to me for being such a nice guy. We already do the same thing with electricity, gas, and water. We do not have individual meters, mutiple people split one bill.

In most people's eyes, "sharing" for free and "reselling" for profit are two different things. However, for the ISP it mostly comes down to selling service to one person or two. The ToS for most home services don't say "reselling", they say something along the lines of "letting anyone else use it".

If you're on the same meter and your ToS specifically mentions "reselling", you may be able to do it. It seems like a gray area. You can either just do it and plead ignorance later if needed (which may or may not get you out of any trouble), or you can call the ISP and have them clarify it. You may be sacrificing your ability to play dumb later though.

So just what kind of connection do "legal" hotspots use if not a standard business line? They're everywhere these days, I can't imagine they all have a dedicated T3 or something else outrageously expensive.

I answered this before.

Technically, a business with a "regular" internet connection wouldn't be allowed to share it out to their customers via free WiFi. It will depend on their plan's ToS, but most simply forbid it. However, a few people checking their email during lunch is probably less demanding than a common power user doing their perfectly acceptable (per the ToS) activities, so it most likely isn't a strain on the ISP's network and therefore they ignore it.

A lot of small businesses are actually violating their ToS by providing free WiFi. But it comes down to money, and a few people checking their email in the middle of the day doesn't crush the ISP's network, so they let it slide. If their choices are a customer buying a regular connection and sharing out a little bandwidth vs. the customer cancelling because they can't afford to buy a true plan that allows sharing, the ISP will most likely choose the one that makes them at least some money.

 

[archivalbackup]

One is a devout catholic.

And the highest per-capita consumption of porn is Utah ... being devout ____ doesn't mean anything as to their online activities.

 

[kumquat]

Ok, everybody keeps pointing to the ToS, but where does it say in there I can't share the connection? Remember residential FIOS is different than business FIOS. In the residential ToS that I read, it's quite obvious that sharing your connection is not allowed. However, when I read the business ToS, I saw no mention of that. Of course they don't specifically say you CAN, either.

Hosting a web server is ok with FIOS business internet, isn't it? I don't see connection sharing as much different. What if I ran an email server and someone was emailing child porn?

What do you think "sharing" is?

You'll be giving a third party access to the service and you will be charging them for it. No matter what you call it, you are reselling the service.

You cannot do that. You can attempt to justify it all you want, but Verizon will terminate your service immediately if they find out you are doing so, and you could easily face a lawsuit.

 

[kumquat]

So just what kind of connection do "legal" hotspots use if not a standard business line? They're everywhere these days, I can't imagine they all have a dedicated T3 or something else outrageously expensive.

They use similar technology but different agreements and different rates. There's a reason a Time Warner Business Class line costs more than the standard consumer line even though you get approximately the same speeds and it's still via cable modem.

They sign different user agreements and they pay extra for it. They might have the same fiber or coax line going into the same modem, but they're paying more money for the ability to resell the connection.

 

[Neb]

sharing = no money changing hands except for you paying the bill.

reselling service = somebody giving you money for part of your internet connection.

have questions? Call up Verizon, inform them of the situation, and ask them to clarify the ToS.

I think this sums it up quite well.

 

[DellAxim]

This is a pretty funny read. The fact that you have to throw out a bunch of analogies to try and justify it should satisfy your curiosity in terms of legality and morals.

It seems as if you expected a bunch of people to just say 'do it man, nothing bad can come from this, you're completely right' - there are a bunch of examples above where you are 100% wrong. Stop trying to defend your idea and take the criticism - and move on to some other fruitful venture for saving money.

Wow, you're a dumbass. I don't have to "throw out a bunch of analogies" to "justify" anything. This has NOTHOING to do with morals.

I didn't expect people to "say" anything other than to clarify what I was asking. You can't call verizon at 2:00AM sunday morning. I'm not trying to "defend" any idea, I'm simply asking what the rules are and where these people are coming up with them. I'm also asking that you don't post any further in my thread because you obviously know nothing of the subject.

The reason I asked here is because I'd thought there would be more than one person with a FIOS business line and more than one person operating a hot spot - but I guess I was wrong.

The ToS for most home services don't say "reselling", they say something along the lines of "letting anyone else use it".

That's why, I've been repeating over and over, I'm reading the BUSINESS ToS, not the residential version. The word "share" does not appear anywhere on the entire document.

I answered this before.

No, you didn't. Who does Starbucks use for their internet service? Who does the local grocery store? Who does the library use? What about at the airport? The little restaurant around the corner? If you think they all have dedicated T3 or better, or Verizon is just letting them all "slide", you're clueless.

What do you think "sharing" is?

You'll be giving a third party access to the service and you will be charging them for it. No matter what you call it, you are reselling the service.

No, that is not reselling. *sigh* You REALLY don't understand. If I'm not making a profit, I'm not reselling, period.

From Wikipedia:

A reseller is a company or individual that purchases goods or services with the intention of reselling them rather than consuming or using them.

1. I don't plan on selling it.
2. I plan on consuming it myself.

They use similar technology but different agreements and different rates. There's a reason a Time Warner Business Class line costs more than the standard consumer line even though you get approximately the same speeds and it's still via cable modem.

They sign different user agreements and they pay extra for it. They might have the same fiber or coax line going into the same modem, but they're paying more money for the ability to resell the connection.

Did you totally ignore the part where I said I'm looking to buy a Verizon BUSINESS line?

ATTENTION PEOPLE:
I KNOW IT IS ILLEGAL TO SHARE OR RESELL A RESIDENTIAL INTERNET CONNECTION! I AM NOT ASKING ABOUT ANY KIND OF RESIDENTIAL INTERNET!

If you think you're such an expert on this subject that you can tell me I'm wrong, then tell me what kind of internet I'm supposed to buy.

 

[kumquat]

Did you totally ignore the part where I said I'm looking to buy a Verizon BUSINESS line?

ATTENTION PEOPLE:
I KNOW IT IS ILLEGAL TO SHARE OR RESELL A RESIDENTIAL INTERNET CONNECTION! I AM NOT ASKING ABOUT ANY KIND OF RESIDENTIAL INTERNET!

If you think you're such an expert on this subject that you can tell me I'm wrong, then tell me what kind of internet I'm supposed to buy.

ISP's don't advertise that type of service online. You can't go sign up over the phone.

You need to contact the ISP in question, tell them your intended use, and request a quote for services, equipment, and installation. That's how real businesses do it.

A standard business line does not allow you to resell the service to third parties for any amount of money, whether you think you're making a profit or not. That's the reality whether you like it or not.

 

[DellAxim]

ISP's don't advertise that type of service online. You can't go sign up over the phone.

Complete bullshit. ISPs advertise OC48's online. Of course one of those would work just fine in this situation, but would be a million times overkill.

 

[Grentz]

I repeat:

Call and ask them.

If you don't feel they would let you when you can, you probably shouldn't do it anyways.

 

[DellAxim]

I repeat:

I don't work for you, I can continue to ask whoever I want, whatever I want, wherever I want, thank you. I'll call them if/when I get around to it or feel like it. K?

Like I said, I was hoping for some advice from real people that ACTUALLY HAVE FIOS business, or a real, legal hotspot. If you don't, then there's really no need for you to reply here. I don't want the prewritten Verizon corporate response read to me from a guy in india over the phone.

 

[xphil3]

Dude, you're being a fucking child. Stop shitting on people and listen to those with more experience than you that are WILLING to give you their opinions. Ive never seen you frequent this sub-forum, though many of the people that responded to you are here daily and generally lend some pretty good advice. Stop bitching and take your criticism.

Let me repeat myself just as Grentz did, if you want specific concrete answers you're going to need to call vz and ask them what their policy is. Period. End of story.

What you're arguing is semantics here, and vz can spin it any way that they want if you share/sell their service amongst other people in your office building. Again, there is a VERY THIN LINE BETWEEN SELLING AND SHARING in context here. Think about it. By sharing, you're taking away a potential customer from them and costing them potential revenue.

Lastly, I worked for a wisp for 3 years awhile back...The majority of our hotspots were TDM(t1), and very few were verizon business. The majority of the providers that we dealt with did NOT advertise their prices on the internet(savvis, l3, att, vz) just as Kumquat said. As for which ISP to use, one that you know has a policy in palce that will allow you to share the bandwidth that you pay for.

 

[DellAxim]

Dude, you're being a fucking child.

Yeah, I'm the one being the child. I'm not "shitting on people with more experience than me", you have no idea what my experience is, and I'm only asking people to clarify their answers. How much time a person spends in this subforum has absolutely NOTHING to do with their level of knowledge. If I wanted Verizon's opion on this, I'd ask them. As it turns out, I don't give a fuck what Verizon THINKS, which is all I can get by calling them, what I care about is what the actual legally binding rules are. Like I said I've already read the FIOS business ToS, that everybody says I'd be violating, and it says nothing about any violation.

Now, beyond that, I refer you to this:

Like I said, I was hoping for some advice from real people that ACTUALLY HAVE FIOS business, or a real, legal hotspot. If you don't, then there's really no need for you to reply here.

Also - "I worked there once a long time ago" doesn't count.

 

[pissboy]

No, that is not reselling. *sigh* You REALLY don't understand. If I'm not making a profit, I'm not reselling, period.

From Wikipedia:

1. I don't plan on selling it.
2. I plan on consuming it myself.

Did you totally ignore the part where I said I'm looking to buy a Verizon BUSINESS line?

ATTENTION PEOPLE:
I KNOW IT IS ILLEGAL TO SHARE OR RESELL A RESIDENTIAL INTERNET CONNECTION! I AM NOT ASKING ABOUT ANY KIND OF RESIDENTIAL INTERNET!

If you think you're such an expert on this subject that you can tell me I'm wrong, then tell me what kind of internet I'm supposed to buy.

So why don't you ask them? I mean if they decide to disconnect you in the future are you just going to spout out a wikipedia link and tell them that some random guy on a forum told you it was ok? It would have taken 5 minutes tops.

 

[Neb]

So why don't you ask them? I mean if they decide to disconnect you in the future are you just going to spout out a wikipedia link and tell them that some random guy on a forum told you it was ok? It would have taken 5 minutes tops.

It's because he's looking for the answers on this forum, not from the biased Verizon CSR's.

 

[Adam12176]

If you think you're such an expert on this subject that you can tell me I'm wrong, then tell me what kind of internet I'm supposed to buy.

Quit being a fucking baby and pay the ISP what they want to be paid, or find another service. It's a lost sale if you start splitting 35mb out to 3 - 4 customers in the office, and as others have already said, they will banhammer you for it. You aren't an ISP, quit trying to play one.

I would say there is a thin line between selling and sharing as far as your ISP see's it. If you dont trust the ToS, its time for you to call them as ask them specifics.

Also, I disagree with your analogy.... in this case, you would be sharing internet to another domicile. This is a potential loss of business for Verizon, and this is probably how they would see it. If you have roomates, they obviously live in the same place that you do and by Verizon policy.. one ONT/connection per domicile.

but again, if you decide to share the internet with anyone and you're the account holder you will be 100% responsible for THEIR actions. Just keep that in mind

What he said, a page ago. I'll be sure to check back at lunch for another page of hilarity.

 

[Oldie]

Short answer: Reselling is prohibited. You can call it "sharing" all you like, but if one person gets the bill, and the others pay that person their "share" that's reselling plain and simple.

I'm closing this before anyone manages to get themselves banned.