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can anyone explain what this could mean?

H

HisSvt76

2[H]4U
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
3,300
This photo has been bouncing around since or after hotchips what could we be looking at

HHFMheJ.jpg


Just want to add. Fanboys need not post I'd like some educated discussion.
Thank you
 
Look up misterx, it's probably not true but if it was it would be one of the biggest moves in console war history
 
elzeus said:
Look up misterx, it's probably not true but if it was it would be one of the biggest moves in console war history
Click to expand...

I saw that but that wasn't the only place this is being discussed if it's not real OK but if it is what does it really mean?
 
There is this also
http://semiaccurate.com/2013/09/03/xbox-ones-sound-block-is-much-more-than-audio/

It just make you wonder really what is under the hood of this thing.
I mean really the system is larger than the PS4 has a pretty impressive cooling setup. There has to be something there that needs cooling that much.

I just don't understand if the ps4 has all this extra power then why is it so much smaller.

I have both coming and I'm wondering about the ps4 and noise and cooling compared to Xbox one.

Could all be bullshit but something is under that big ass heat sink
 
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HisSvt76 said:
I saw that but that wasn't the only place this is being discussed if it's not real OK but if it is what does it really mean?
Click to expand...

It would mean the xb1 would have a significant advantage over the ps4. That it would have a gpu that's 2-3 generations ahead and that the gpu currently in the apu would either work in a crossfire like manner or as a gpgpu along side the dgpu. It would support the next set of direct x features that aren't even out yet. It's pretty outlandish, but it is hard to believe that microsoft spent so much money with amd and end up with a machine that looks easily outclassed by the ps4 on paper, especially given that their first two systems had certain specs that were better than their competitors. Anyways we won't know until the supposed NDA is up at the end of September.
 
I'm not seeing it, not with MS just annoucing they will not be selling it at a loss. If it's all BS and MS played some serious poker then it would be awesome, and obviously you wouldn't be able to say the games don't show it because they would have had to add this recently.
 
Doesn't mean anything. What we're getting is what we're getting on paper.


Posted from Hardforum.com App for Android
 
Anyone on the Internet could take a picture of a CPU, draw some boxes on it, and put some info next to it. That doesn't mean it's some secret that Microsoft is holding back.
 
bigdogchris said:
Anyone on the Internet could take a picture of a CPU, draw some boxes on it, and put some info next to it. That doesn't mean it's some secret that Microsoft is holding back.
Click to expand...

Precisely. I think it means people are gullible as fuck now days...
 
ocellaris said:
http://misterxmedia.livejournal.com/
Click to expand...

I've seen reference to this in a few posts on various sites.

I guess I'm not so curious about the wild speculation, but just what is under such a big heatsink. From the look of this the PS4 doesn't contain cooling anywhere near this.

Could it just be overkill?
Or is Xbox one full of components to do more than just game without taking away from the game power?

Funny opendns blocked that site as social networking.
 
Probably so they don't have rrod v2 honestly, they ate shit on that whole rrod problem
 
Bman123 said:
Probably so they don't have rrod v2 honestly, they ate shit on that whole rrod problem
Click to expand...

rrod just wouldn't happen now. Back then lead free solder and the processes used where not good especially with the power consumption the original 360 had. With current die sizes and lower controllable power consumption the cooling they are using is really big. So the question still is. Is there more under there or is it just to make a super reliable super quiet box.
 
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Leaving the wild and crazy speculations of misterx that have been called wrong by more reputable media, i would believe that it has more to do indeed with kinnect if it is the actual pic of the one.

PS: If anyone with just enough money was able to design working graphic chips better than AMD & Nvidia, Intel would have done so long ago... just saying to put things in perspective vs the wild speculation.
 
there is nothing that accounts for the size of the Xbox one chip, period, not the ESRam, not the 15 co-processors, not the kinnect nothing. The PS4 is a smaller chip, @3M transistors, the xbox one chip is bigger with 5 million transistors, more than a 50 percent increase, something is hidden, and it is not far fetched to say AMD and Microsoft have an NDA especially given AMD being slated to announce a new line of GPU's
 
VladDracule said:
there is nothing that accounts for the size of the Xbox one chip, period, not the ESRam, not the 15 co-processors, not the kinnect nothing. The PS4 is a smaller chip, @3M transistors, the xbox one chip is bigger with 5 million transistors, more than a 50 percent increase, something is hidden, and it is not far fetched to say AMD and Microsoft have an NDA especially given AMD being slated to announce a new line of GPU's
Click to expand...

It is pretty far fetched to think MS would keep secrets after both designs were locked in and Sony was killing them in the realm of public opinion.
 
ocellaris said:
It is pretty far fetched to think MS would keep secrets after both designs were locked in and Sony was killing them in the realm of public opinion.
Click to expand...

NDA's take precedence over public affairs. And yes, it DOES make sense, it prevents sony from having any clue what they are planning, you dont win in the market by allowing your competition to know your every move
 
VladDracule said:
And yes, it DOES make sense, it prevents sony from having any clue what they are planning
Click to expand...

And what daresay would be won by that today, given that both machines are in mass production? Sony wouldn't be able to do anything even if they knew.
 
VladDracule said:
there is nothing that accounts for the size of the Xbox one chip, period, not the ESRam, not the 15 co-processors, not the kinnect nothing. The PS4 is a smaller chip, @3M transistors, the xbox one chip is bigger with 5 million transistors, more than a 50 percent increase, something is hidden, and it is not far fetched to say AMD and Microsoft have an NDA especially given AMD being slated to announce a new line of GPU's
Click to expand...
Microsoft is claiming they will profit from the One on each sale. Considering it's hard to believe they are profiting from a console that has a forced peripheral (which cost as much to manufacturer as the system itself), it makes it very hard to believe that there's some secret "hidden goody", like an additional GPU, on the die that's going to make a world of a difference. Financially it's not possible with what they are claiming. They've also already disclosed what the contents of the SoC are and there is nothing that we already didn't know. Plus, where's the history of console manufacturers sandbagging their specs? It's never happened before nor does Microsoft have a history of doing it with their products.

eloj said:
And what daresay would be won by that today, given that both machines are in mass production? Sony wouldn't be able to do anything even if they knew.
Click to expand...
That's exactly right. There's nothing Sony can do. If Microsoft had some hidden gem about their console, this would be the time to disclose is to build hype before launch, not keep it a secret so people have more bait to continue bashing their console with.

There's also the rumor that the NDA drops on the 29th. I think this is irrelevant because Sony went through virtually an identical process with AMD developing their APU. Any NDA that hides specs would apply to Sony as well, and Sony has been able to disclose everything.

In the end, even if there is some extra power in the One, most consumers make their decision based on price. PS4 cost less than One. Sony demonstrated with the PS3 that more power and more hardware at a higher price doesn't work. Do the One fanbois think that logic doesn't apply to them?
 
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HisSvt76 said:
There is this also
http://semiaccurate.com/2013/09/03/xbox-ones-sound-block-is-much-more-than-audio/

It just make you wonder really what is under the hood of this thing.
I mean really the system is larger than the PS4 has a pretty impressive cooling setup. There has to be something there that needs cooling that much.

I just don't understand if the ps4 has all this extra power then why is it so much smaller.

I have both coming and I'm wondering about the ps4 and noise and cooling compared to Xbox one.

Could all be bullshit but something is under that big ass heat sink
Click to expand...

I always just assumed the larger system was MS over compensating for the RROD issue with XBOX360, it was very costly for them. Is that a good or bad thing? Well I think its a good thing, most average users are just to ignorant to understand heat. I can't tell you how many poorly designed entertainment centers I have seen, well actually I can all of them lol. Just about anyones house I go to, they say if you want to game you have to leave the doors open. Some even pull the consoles out. ALso noisy dvd drives was another complaint. Believe it or not MS does react and learn from mistakes.
 
bigdogchris said:
Microsoft is claiming they will profit from the One on each sale. Considering it's hard to believe they are profiting from a console that has a forced peripheral (which cost as much to manufacturer as the system itself), it makes it very hard to believe that there's some secret "hidden goody", like an additional GPU, on the die that's going
Click to expand...

When they mentioned this I believe they included the cost of XBL and other sources not just the console.
 
bigdogchris said:
Microsoft is claiming they will profit from the One on each sale. Considering it's hard to believe they are profiting from a console that has a forced peripheral (which cost as much to manufacturer as the system itself), it makes it very hard to believe that there's some secret "hidden goody", like an additional GPU, on the die that's going to make a world of a difference. Financially it's not possible with what they are claiming. They've also already disclosed what the contents of the SoC are and there is nothing that we already didn't know. Plus, where's the history of console manufacturers sandbagging their specs? It's never happened before nor does Microsoft have a history of doing it with their products.

That's exactly right. There's nothing Sony can do. If Microsoft had some hidden gem about their console, this would be the time to disclose is to build hype before launch, not keep it a secret so people have more bait to continue bashing their console with.

There's also the rumor that the NDA drops on the 29th. I think this is irrelevant because Sony went through virtually an identical process with AMD developing their APU. Any NDA that hides specs would apply to Sony as well, and Sony has been able to disclose everything.

In the end, even if there is some extra power in the One, most consumers make their decision based on price. PS4 cost less than One. Sony demonstrated with the PS3 that more power and more hardware at a higher price doesn't work. Do the One fanbois think that logic doesn't apply to them?
Click to expand...

In what way is it irrelevant? Microsoft is rumored to have paid a significant amount more to AMD to develop and build this chip. If that is the case then it would also follow that there is more than likely tech in there that is not in the sony chip, which would mean the NDA in this instance would not apply to them. Seriously, tell me where the extra 2 billion transistors are from?
 
Maybe or it could just mean that AMD ripped them off lol. How does one decide what exactly it costs for such a deal? Well its decided at the negotiation table and its very easy for a negotiation to end in a bad deal. Good and bad negotiations probably determine more of the success and failure of business than you can imagine. Its also possible MS was rushing them because they were surprised by the PS4 announcement.

The extra transistors are interesting where are the citations on this? I can find many that state the size of the Xbox one but none for the PS4, for some stupid reason all the xbox one transistor count pages just keep comparing it to GPUs. Why would anyone compare an SOC to just a GPU?

The link above about sound is interesting, there are some hints that MS has some interest in sound. For instance they apparently are partnering with Polk Audio for some reason on this to make some xbox one accessories. This seems odd though because audio has always been a weak point of consoles or just an after thought at best, and why would anyone change that most console users have nothing more than the garbage 2.0 speakers in their TV. And I doubt many will be looking to dump a lot of money into higher priced audio no matter what it supports.
 
rudy said:
Maybe or it could just mean that AMD ripped them off lol. How does one decide what exactly it costs for such a deal? Well its decided at the negotiation table and its very easy for a negotiation to end in a bad deal. Good and bad negotiations probably determine more of the success and failure of business than you can imagine. Its also possible MS was rushing them because they were surprised by the PS4 announcement.

The extra transistors are interesting where are the citations on this? I can find many that state the size of the Xbox one but none for the PS4, for some stupid reason all the xbox one transistor count pages just keep comparing it to GPUs. Why would anyone compare an SOC to just a GPU?

The link above about sound is interesting, there are some hints that MS has some interest in sound. For instance they apparently are partnering with Polk Audio for some reason on this to make some xbox one accessories. This seems odd though because audio has always been a weak point of consoles or just an after thought at best, and why would anyone change that most console users have nothing more than the garbage 2.0 speakers in their TV. And I doubt many will be looking to dump a lot of money into higher priced audio no matter what it supports.
Click to expand...

This details the transistor count of the XBox One
http://forwardthinking.pcmag.com/no...or-detailed-at-hot-chips-but-questions-remain

If you read through some posts on this page (this page linked and backwards/forwards a few) there is some extremely interesting information/speculation. Microsoft is claiming 6 operations per clock cycle as opposed to Sonys 4. That means the XBox one is not only operating at a higher frequency (due to recent bump) but is also executing more operations per second which really gives the XBox one CPU a very large advantage
http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=136756&page=196
 
Still not buying it, MisterX was justifying some of his "rumors" with only a select few developers getting access to Stereo (using both GPUs) instead of Mono (just the one) with Ryse character's polygon count with Killzone 3. Something like 80k vs 150k or whatever it was. I read it yesterday and I'm here at work and can't verify.

Gullible people (like those on his site) are clamoring on and on about Sony trolls, how they hate them, they should DIAF, can't wait for the MS ownage to put them out of business, etc.

They fail to do even the most basic of comparisons with those two titles. All of you guys should understand that when a game only has 2-3 characters on the screen with nothing but hills and some grass those character models are going to be up there in polygon count. Killzone 3 has vastly more things happening on screen so to compare the two and use that as justification as Ryse being a game developed in "Stereo" is absurd.

In order for this to be true, all sorts of things would have to fall into place perfectly with hundreds of moving parts. I'm not going to outright deny it because it is a rather large die. However after the recent MS employee falling back on MS's keen ability to use software to make up for the 30-40% difference in hardware as an excuse, along with their stance on turning a profit per console sold it's hard to even consider the possibility.
 
VladDracule said:
In what way is it irrelevant? Microsoft is rumored to have paid a significant amount more to AMD to develop and build this chip. If that is the case then it would also follow that there is more than likely tech in there that is not in the sony chip, which would mean the NDA in this instance would not apply to them. Seriously, tell me where the extra 2 billion transistors are from?
Click to expand...
The article you linked to earlier says about 50% (2.5B) of the transistors are just for the memory.

Anyways, for this whole rumor to be true, that would mean Xbox One would be shipping with a GPU that has not even been shipped for PC yet (HD9000 series). Something like this has never happened before, I see no reason why it would happen now.

If it's too good to be true, it probably is
 
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bigdogchris said:
Anyways, for this whole rumor to be true, that would mean Xbox One would be shipping with a GPU that has not even been shipped for PC yet (HD9000 series). Something like this has never happened before, I see no reason why it would happen now.

If it's too good to be true, it probably is
Click to expand...

it happened with the 360. the r500 xenos chip in the 360 became the r520 chip in the ATi X1800 series that came out a few months later. the Xenos chip also previewed a lot of what was going to happen in the R600 series that came two year later.
 
Nimisys said:
it happened with the 360. the r500 xenos chip in the 360 became the r520 chip in the ATi X1800 series that came out a few months later. the Xenos chip also previewed a lot of what was going to happen in the R600 series that came two year later.
Click to expand...

Yes it did that is a very good point.
 
I don't have time to read all the posts but could someone link me to a reliable quote on the total transistors in the PS4 chip.
 
I saw another rumor that Xbox one could have a Kaveri apu vs the kabini apu that is said to be in the ps4 that could explain a increased transistor count?

All just guessing so please no flipping out.
 
HisSvt76 said:
I saw another rumor that Xbox one could have a Kaveri apu vs the kabini apu that is said to be in the ps4 that could explain a increased transistor count?

All just guessing so please no flipping out.
Click to expand...

Yeah anything is possible, just highly unlikely. Sure the One could have a next gen CPU and APU, but at that point why cripple the APU with DDR3? ESRAM is nice and all, but having the GPU accessing RAM at DDR3 speeds is going to be more of a bottleneck that the cores being used. The is a reason no decent computer GPUs utilize DDR3, it is simply too slow.
 
ocellaris said:
Yeah anything is possible, just highly unlikely. Sure the One could have a next gen CPU and APU, but at that point why cripple the APU with DDR3? ESRAM is nice and all, but having the GPU accessing RAM at DDR3 speeds is going to be more of a bottleneck that the cores being used. The is a reason no decent computer GPUs utilize DDR3, it is simply too slow.
Click to expand...

Or theres the possibility that the NDA between Microsoft and AMD's NDA includes ALL information regarding the chip. If there is a discrete GPU in there its extremely likely that it has a partition of GDDR5. And again, GDDR5 is not an end all with graphics, DDR3 will perform just fine especially if they use the CPU to do certain graphics processing which is possible using directx 11.2.

Also keep in mind the frequency on the Sony CPU is 1.6 ghz and this will absolutely in every possible way bottleneck the GPU. when new GPU's come out the CPU is the first bottleneck that pc builders have to battle
 
You still need to use the system memory for textures, frame buffer, and geometry information. There isn't a magic black hole inside the One where it can store these pieces of information without using the system RAM or the tiny amount of ESRAM.

Look at GPU RAM utilization for new PC games, it isn't uncommon for them to get close to 2GB. Microsoft is trying to pull an Apple here.
 
ocellaris said:
You still need to use the system memory for textures, frame buffer, and geometry information. There isn't a magic black hole inside the One where it can store these pieces of information without using the system RAM or the tiny amount of ESRAM.

Look at GPU RAM utilization for new PC games, it isn't uncommon for them to get close to 2GB. Microsoft is trying to pull an Apple here.
Click to expand...

your completely wrong still you have no clue how dx 11.2 is going to work with tilling, RAM utilization for gaming will go up drastically with dx 11.2

And even so, thats exactly where the PS4 has a disadvantage. the Latency will be a disadvantage, a major disadvantage in this regard
 
From a business standpoint, it only makes sense to have a slight tactical advantage over the competition IF you know with decent certainty that you cannot gain majority userbase over the competition. Publishers that aren't paid off are going to develop for both platforms with a general min-spec equal to the lower system with some possible slight tweaks for the more powerful system where it makes sense, but the difference will likely not be a generational gap. It doesn't make sense for MS to invest that much in hardware that will mostly go to waste.

A better business tactic would be to release rumors that your system might be more powerful. This has the benefit of getting added sales with out the added costs associated with actually increasing the hardware spec. Just sayin'.
 
eloj said:
You really want to believe, don't you?
Click to expand...

you really want to believe that Microsoft is stupid enough to give sony that big of an advantage dont you? Heads up, Microsoft is making money when Sony isnt, Microsoft is smarter, they spend their money in smarter ways, they have been developing OS's to run and work with the hardware in the best possible way for AGES, sony has not. Microsoft WILL NOT give sony that kind of an advantage, plain and simple.
 
If companies are under NDA and abide by it then MS has no way of knowing what SONY's advantage is until it is too late. So yes its very easy for MS to give SONY and advantage.
 
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