Calibrating PC Speakers bass/treble

P

provoko

Gawd
Joined
Aug 6, 2004
Messages
656
I just got the new Altec Lansing VS4221 2.1 speakers. I'm having a hard time adjusting the bass and treble. Like, the bass is really booming, so I lower that, but then the treble is too hissy, so I lower that, then I get this muddy sound, so I raise the treble, then I'm all confused.

Anyone have good advice on finding the right balance between bass/treble?

Thanks.
 
can you adjust things using your soundcard drivers' EQ instead of the bass/treble knob on the speakers? it'll probably give you better results since you're able to adjust the frequencies you've got trouble with, instead of just clamping it at whatever 20hz and 15khz (whatever those knobs are set at, basically the extreme ends of the audible spectrum, and only really good for creating what you've described)
 
obobski said:
can you adjust things using your soundcard drivers' EQ instead of the bass/treble knob on the speakers? it'll probably give you better results since you're able to adjust the frequencies you've got trouble with, instead of just clamping it at whatever 20hz and 15khz (whatever those knobs are set at, basically the extreme ends of the audible spectrum, and only really good for creating what you've described)
Click to expand...

I do. So far I can get the bass perfect. But the treble either gives me a muddy sound or a tin can sound.

With music I can get the treble to something between muddy and tinny, with voices like news or youtube I can't figure it out what-so-ever (everyone just sounds like they have a sore throat).

So how do I use the EQ to make treble and people's voices sound perfect?
 
provoko said:
I do. So far I can get the bass perfect. But the treble either gives me a muddy sound or a tin can sound.

With music I can get the treble to something between muddy and tinny, with voices like news or youtube I can't figure it out what-so-ever (everyone just sounds like they have a sore throat).

So how do I use the EQ to make treble and people's voices sound perfect?
Click to expand...

well, it may just be a limitation of the speakers, they may not have very good treble reproduction

voices are going to be between 500 and 4k, if that helps in adjusting things, thats a fairly wide range I know

you might also bring down the level control overall on the softare EQ (if available), and kill the absolute top end (16k or whatever is at the far right on your EQ), to take that down

::edit
just caught the model # from another thread (yes I realize you posted it in this thread, I sorta glazed over it...)
I have the older version of those Altecs, they're somewhat finnicky about placement, make sure they've got clearance on the sides and that they're pointed at you, the downfiring driver sounds terrible if it isn't able to "breathe", and the HF is VERY directional
 
Last edited:
Solution is to buy different speakers. The ones you have are not very flat in the application that you have placed them. Alternatively you can run the output through a "real" equalizer/preamp and adjust that way. But by that point its silly to keep using computer speakers.

You are looking for a "flat" response, or as close to flat as possible. One way to visualize is to use a program such as TrueRTA and a calibrated mic, play pink noise through the speakers and measure its response, adjust your EQ accordingly.
 
bobdole369 said:
Solution is to buy different speakers. The ones you have are not very flat in the application that you have placed them. Alternatively you can run the output through a "real" equalizer/preamp and adjust that way. But by that point its silly to keep using computer speakers.

You are looking for a "flat" response, or as close to flat as possible. One way to visualize is to use a program such as TrueRTA and a calibrated mic, play pink noise through the speakers and measure its response, adjust your EQ accordingly.
Click to expand...

yes obviously trying to make something work is overrated, just burn it all and keep buying until the forum collective is satisfied with you :rolleyes:

and what, pray tell, is the disadvantage of software EQ's?
 
obobski said:
well, it may just be a limitation of the speakers, they may not have very good treble reproduction

voices are going to be between 500 and 4k, if that helps in adjusting things, thats a fairly wide range I know

you might also bring down the level control overall on the softare EQ (if available), and kill the absolute top end (16k or whatever is at the far right on your EQ), to take that down

::edit
just caught the model # from another thread (yes I realize you posted it in this thread, I sorta glazed over it...)
I have the older version of those Altecs, they're somewhat finnicky about placement, make sure they've got clearance on the sides and that they're pointed at you, the downfiring driver sounds terrible if it isn't able to "breathe", and the HF is VERY directional
Click to expand...

Playing around with 500 to 4k is helping. What should I start with though: A default treble, 500, 4k, what? What do each do individually, is there a nice guide on-line that you use?

Also what is HF (high frequency) and are you referring to the speakers?

Moving the speakers further apart (breathing) and tilting them so they were pointed right at me solved a lot of the problems.

Thank you so much.
 
provoko said:
Playing around with 500 to 4k is helping. What should I start with though: A default treble, 500, 4k, what? What do each do individually, is there a nice guide on-line that you use?

Also what is HF (high frequency) and are you referring to the speakers?

Moving the speakers further apart (breathing) and tilting them so they were pointed right at me solved a lot of the problems.

Thank you so much.
Click to expand...

treble simply means higher frequencies, frequencies are expressed in hertz (hz), the higher the hz, the more vibrations per second, the higher the frequency

voices exist between 500 and 4000 hz (it depends on the person's voice, low voices are lower down in that range, like deep voiced men, higher pitched shrill voices will be up higher), adjusting things within that range will influence vocal (and a lot of other instruments in that range, such as the piano) clarity/response

HF is high frequency, meaning frequencies considered to be "high", think five digits (like 10,000 hz and above, realize these are all just generalized #'s), at high frequency, sound becomes very directional, which means if the speaker isn't pointed at you, it isn't as clear/responsive (the speaker's output follows a conic path, the higher the frequency the narrower the cone), on the speakers you've got, the HF output is going to be exceptionally directional due to cabinet design and the general characteristics of the driver units (the speaker component which makes sound) used by Altec

as far as online guides, I can't think of anything offhand, I'm just used to tuning things and playing with it until it sounds "right", if something comes to mind I'll edit and post it, or maybe another member has something to provide in terms of a how-to link
 
obobski said:
treble simply means higher frequencies, frequencies are expressed in hertz (hz), the higher the hz, the more vibrations per second, the higher the frequency

voices exist between 500 and 4000 hz (it depends on the person's voice, low voices are lower down in that range, like deep voiced men, higher pitched shrill voices will be up higher), adjusting things within that range will influence vocal (and a lot of other instruments in that range, such as the piano) clarity/response

HF is high frequency, meaning frequencies considered to be "high", think five digits (like 10,000 hz and above, realize these are all just generalized #'s), at high frequency, sound becomes very directional, which means if the speaker isn't pointed at you, it isn't as clear/responsive (the speaker's output follows a conic path, the higher the frequency the narrower the cone), on the speakers you've got, the HF output is going to be exceptionally directional due to cabinet design and the general characteristics of the driver units (the speaker component which makes sound) used by Altec

as far as online guides, I can't think of anything offhand, I'm just used to tuning things and playing with it until it sounds "right", if something comes to mind I'll edit and post it, or maybe another member has something to provide in terms of a how-to link
Click to expand...

Ohhhhh really good insight thanks.

So if I raise the treble, i'm raising all the frequencies and making the cone smaller too which makes my job even harder. I should just leave the treble on default and mess with the 500-4k hz.

So different speakers would give me a better conic path than the VS4221 due to it's design, possibly one with a higher treble AND a bigger cone or is that like an impossibility?

For my speakers, could I lower the treble really low to get a big cone and raise the 500-4k to get clear sounding vocals?
 
provoko said:
Ohhhhh really good insight thanks.

So if I raise the treble, i'm raising all the frequencies and making the cone smaller too which makes my job even harder. I should just leave the treble on default and mess with the 500-4k hz.

So different speakers would give me a better conic path than the VS4221 due to it's design, possibly one with a higher treble AND a bigger cone or is that like an impossibility?

For my speakers, could I lower the treble really low to get a big cone and raise the 500-4k to get clear sounding vocals?
Click to expand...

ah, bit of a mis-understanding

adjusting the treble control just changes a range of higher frequencies, probably 5k and higher, its just like moving a large range of EQ channels all at once, so it won't affect the dispersion pattern of the speakers

as far as different speakers having better high end imaging, yes it likely does exist, although you'll have to find what suits your tastes, as response characteristics and people's impressions of them change
 
Unfortunately, I kinda have to agree with the "Get better speakers," advice. It kinda sucks, but you obviously can appreciate better sound, and there is just only so much you can do to fix up lower quality speakers. After all, if we could EQ bad speakers to sound like good ones, there'd probably be little market for good speakers.

However, give the EQ the X-Fi has a try. It is more precise, and maybe you can use it to help your problems. Something you can do is have a look at this chart to get an idea of the range of sound you want to adjust, depending on how you feel the sound needs to change.

If that still isn't doing it, you can get a more precise EQ for whatever music play you like and mess with that. That will only apply for that music player though, not all sounds.

If that still doesn't do it, well then I think you are looking at better speakers.
 
Got it obobski, thanks. Thanks Sycraft for the chart. Help me figure some things out.

I'm using the 500hz to get rid of any nasal sounds, and the 1k & 2k to get rid of those tinny sounds. It's helping a lot. So far 500hz at -1.9 / 1khz at -3.0 / 2khz at -2.0 sounds good with most songs and most speech.

In the end though, I think i'm way better off returning these speakers.

Thanks for everyone's help.
 
As obobski mentioned, the placement of the speakers that produce bass is important.
Too near anything that can resonate at the frequencies used (ie furniture) or too near a wall will cause boom and an apparent lack of bass depth.
Also new speakers take time to wear in, during this time the cones rubber is not as flexible as the design allowed for.
This results in less lower frequency response which can also make the speaker seem boomy until it is properly run in.

My new sub took maybe 4 months to bed in, I was a bit disappointed with it for quite some time then all of a sudden (it was a key moment when I realised), it was phenomenal!
I spent aaaages trying to set it up, now its easy.
(my sub is the BK Monolith)
One of the best place for a sub is in a corner of the room, pulled away from both walls until the boom diminishes and lower bass is felt more.
This adds up to 3dB of sound per wall it is close to, so a corner can add up to 6dB, thus reducing the volume level you need to run the sub at.
(3dB difference is 1/2 or double the power, 6dB is 1/4 or 4 times the power)
This means it effectively becomes more powerful and the distance from the wall allows you to tailor its frequency response.
This is not the best position for everyone though so use the following general rules and you should be able to get the best from it.

If you cant change your seating position:
1) place the sub where you sit and walk round the room. One or more places in the room will get more/deeper bass.
2) place the sub where the bass is strongest.
3) position it nearer or further from the wall/corner to tailor its response to your liking, dont forget to use the phase switch/setting if it has one.

If you can change your seating position:
1) Place the sub in a corner of the room, about 1ft from the walls to start.
2) Walk round the room and find the place where bass is strongest.
3) Place the sub in the strongest bass spot.
4) Walk round the room again and find the strongest spot.
5) You now have 2 decent bass response areas, place the sub in one of them and your seat in the other.
6) Position the sub nearer or further from the wall/corner to tailor its response to your liking, dont forget to use the phase switch/setting if it has one.

You may find that where you want to sit does not get very good deep bass at all.
To re-enforce the bass you can use 2 subwoofers.
I have done this to get decent bass all around my living room but there are still spots that are almost void of bass.
So you have to work a bit to get your hifi set up well and you may not be able to finish the job until the sub is run in.

Be sure to set all equalizers to flat before moving the sub around.
Once you have found the best positions for the sub and your seat, adjust the equalizer to suit.
Dont use the Crystalizer on Creative/Auzentech cards unless your hifi is so bad that it really can help.
 
Last edited:
and what, pray tell, is the disadvantage of software EQ's?
Click to expand...

Sound quality. Accuracy. Adjustability.

Looks like you managed to get her right!

Quite often you can make it work using something like ASIO and any number of the freely available EQ plugins - like EQ31 (a 31 bander), but your player app/source will need to support playing into ASIO.
 
No, sorry, "real" as in hardware EQs aren't better than software EQs. At their very best they are maybe as good as simple ones. However software EQs can be far better. Any EQ setup you can design with circuits, you can also design in the digital world. However the digital EQ doesn't suffer from any of the problems that are introduced by the components. It can have essentially infinite SNR with a high precision calculation. It can also be made much more flexible easily.

For that matter you needn't stick to emulating analogue, you can do better. Instead of trying to do frequency domain correction, you can look at it as a time domain problem and use a FIR filter. This allows you to deal with time and frequency problems, to have an EQ with less phase shift (or even none at all if you like). Things that you cannot accomplish in the analogue world.

That is, in fact, what is used to master music these days. Rare to see a mastering engineer use a physical EQ, they do it all in a DAW, all in software.

The only "hardware" EQ I've ever heard that is as good as the mastering plugins on my computer is MultEQ XT in receivers... However that really isn't hardware. Yes it is in a receiver, but it is just a set of FIR filters calculated on the receiver's DSPs. You can, in fact, get the same thing for your computer.

That the EQ in the X-Fi drivers or a program like Winamp isn't powerful has nothing to do with the limits of software, they are just made simple to make them easy. You can get software that is phase linear parametric EQ or any number of other configurations to match whatever you need to do.

In terms of a quality software EQ for media players iZotope makes a good one.
 
Sorry folks. I think my point was misconstrued. I didn't intend to come across as an elitist that only favors old school "real" hardware eq's. My point was that I wasn't aware of a universal EQ app that wasn't designed simply and often poorly with too few adjustment bands, that didn't have an impact on sound quality (by allowing the user to adjust beyond clipping, etc) . My ignorance shows.

Quite the contrary, as I'm currently working on a CarPC that runs inputs and outputs through ASIO using plugins and splitting out frequency channels and doing time delay. Sort of a crossover on steroids.
 
^^^ The cool thing about a modern recievers equalizing is that it comes with a microphone and the reciever does the work for you. If your careful with the microphone it absolutely works. Though that being said better amplifers/speakers/and source can all make a difference..

I wouldn't have any clue how to make those fancy equalizers work properly..

Pete
 
sycraft honestly made every point I would've made, my hat is off to you sir :)

and nice links

nenu:
I will never have time to read that wall of text, but I can only assume it contains useful information :)

bobdole:
honestly I love software EQ's, be it on my X-Fi/Audigy, or my M-Audio hardware, or the Mackie I work with, and if you asked me to go back to a traditional 32-band I'd assuredly scream (hell, on the Mackie you can specify ANY frequency between something like 10hz and 40khz, and have a ridiculous number of points on the curve (I doubt its unlimited, but I haven't had issues adding point after point until I get bored))

the last time I used a software EQ that was as hellish as you described, I think Pentium II was considered "high end"

guyclinch:
yeah, those auto-calibration setups are sometimes wonderful, other times they just make a mess, or need a bit of "help" after they auto-config things,

OP:
good to hear things are working, and I agree with sycraft, if all the tweaking in the world doesn't net you the exact experience you want, better speakers aren't out of the question, but if you're happy with it after playing with settings, that isn't bad either
 
I should add that investing in some good speakers can be a wise idea, provided you can hear and appreciate the difference. Reason is speakers don't get outdated like the rest of a computer. While speaker technology does slowly improve, it really is not a fast pace and the improvements are minor for the most part. So what you discover is that a good pair of speakers now is a good pair in 5 years, 10 years, and so on.

It isn't a situation like a videocard, you don't need to buy new Speakers 5800 XT(tm) this year to get good sound from games :D.

So if you spend $300 on speakers you like, you'll probably find them useful for a much longer time than $300 spent on any other computer component. Unless they break, you won't need to replace them.

Of course it is always possible to get bitten by the audio bug and upgrade all the time, as I'm prone to, but it isn't needed unless you want to.

So give it some thought, go listen to some computer speakers, and maybe some home theater speakers and professional monitor speakers. See if you find something that is a reasonable price that you really like. If so, save up for it. You'll likely find you are still enjoying it a decade from now.

My rear speakers are actually just like that. They are B&W 601s I bought back in 1999. For many years they were my only speakers. Then I wanted surround sound so I got some tower front speakers and moved them to the back. Later I added a sub and center, but still used the 601s in the rear. I've since replaced the front and center speakers with new ones, but the 601s continue to be my rear speakers. Some time next year I'll probalby spend the money to replace them with SVS speakers, but for now, after a decade, they still serve me well.

I won't be dumping them in the trash either, I'll sell them to someone who will hopefully get many years of use themselves out of them.

Speakers have the potential to really last.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top