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cables... finally convinced

C

CrazyCuz2k

Gawd
Joined
Sep 22, 2008
Messages
684
Switched up my USB cable from a cheap "free" A-B USB cable to a decent shielded USB cable with the caps and all of a sudden the annoying buzz from my PS audio GCHA to my Senn 650 dissapeared. Music sounded more detailed and the sound stage opened. Never again will I use really cheap cables to connect to decent mid fi equipment.

I used to believe it was all 1 and 0 especially since it's a USB cable passing digital information. But no I was wrong. Just thought I'd share it with you all. can't wait for my Denon AH-D5000's to come :)
 
lol not this lifetime... I'll go as high as a $30 blue jeans interconnect.

But never will I use "free" cables to connect my hi-fi equipment
 
shielded vs non shielded makes a difference, sure. Sounds like you had some sort of grounding issue. That doesn't mean that $600 cables are better than monoprice, though. Just... be careful!
 
No doubt. Could never understand why my car stereo sounded terrible when I was a teenager.....took a year or so before I realized cables from radio shack are not cool, even as rope.
 
Yea i found out just how important cables were when i switched from a free 28awg hdmi cable to a 22awg cable for my tv. Routing the cables was a pain, but it was like watching a completely different tv.

Monoprice always treated me well.
 
Well if you are running more than 15 feet of cable, yes 22 awg would be a big difference between 28awg lol, HDMI isn't even supposed to run much farther than that without a signal repeater or it will start failing on HD video tests.
 
NoTrigger said:
Yea i found out just how important cables were when i switched from a free 28awg hdmi cable to a 22awg cable for my tv. Routing the cables was a pain, but it was like watching a completely different tv.

Monoprice always treated me well.
Click to expand...

???

How long was the cable?

should take pictures with a dslr... then compare them. easiest test in the world
 
For analog connections, there really are some piss poor cables out there that have terrible shielding which introduce noise. I'd stay away from off-brand ebay cables.

While I wouldn't recommend Monster cables, I'd suggest sticking to a site like monoprice.com for inexpensive cables. I bought 4 analog cables from them to go from my sound card to amplifier and they're clear. I think they cost $1-something a piece.
 
The noise being eliminated is believable, as it can be passed through the ground, but 1s are 1s and 0s are 0s. For analog, cables may make a small difference, but digital either works or it doesn't.
 
CrazyCuz2k said:
Switched up my USB cable from a cheap "free" A-B USB cable to a decent shielded USB cable with the caps and all of a sudden the annoying buzz from my PS audio GCHA to my Senn 650 dissapeared. Music sounded more detailed and the sound stage opened. Never again will I use really cheap cables to connect to decent mid fi equipment.

I used to believe it was all 1 and 0 especially since it's a USB cable passing digital information. But no I was wrong. Just thought I'd share it with you all. can't wait for my Denon AH-D5000's to come :)
Click to expand...

Ever consider that you had a bad USB cable instead of coming to the conclusion that all free cables are bad? You won't hear the dif between coat hanger wire and expensive esoteric cable so long as neither is defective. Yes, that has been proven with ABX testing.
 
0055 said:
???

How long was the cable?

should take pictures with a dslr... then compare them. easiest test in the world
Click to expand...

Bits can drop when transferred along a HDMI cable and the output device will still display whatever bits are left. When low quality cables are combined with long runs, this can be pretty easy to spot, even though people are quick to go "OMG THEY ALL WORK EXACTLY THE SAME". Plus I've seen people with 6 foot cables that had sparkles and shit all over the screen. The cable was bad and replacing it fixed the problem.

grimster said:
The noise being eliminated is believable, as it can be passed through the ground, but 1s are 1s and 0s are 0s. For analog, cables may make a small difference, but digital either works or it doesn't.
Click to expand...

Completely untrue. HDMI connections will still display an image on the screen even with a large number of dropped/wrong bits. HDMI isn't like other digital connections that will just tell you to fuck off if the cable is dropping packets and failing CRC checks. I went through a few HDMI cables going to my projector (15 ft away, I think my cable is 20 feet though) and it isn't a matter of "it works or it doesn't".
 
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ocellaris said:
Completely untrue. HDMI connections will still display an image on the screen even with a large number of dropped/wrong bits. HDMI isn't like other digital connections that will just tell you to fuck off if the cable is dropping packets and failing CRC checks. I went through a few HDMI cables going to my projector (15 ft away, I think my cable is 20 feet though) and it isn't a matter of "it works or it doesn't".
Click to expand...

I think you're not seeing the point correctly. The 1's and 0's come across as 1's and 0's, or they don't. Nobody said that the whole image would just go out. If the 1/0 does not come across correctly, you get an artifact. It either works, or it doesn't.
 
No shit, HDMI has error correction. Error correction mostly interpolates data to the point where a human can't easily detect a fault. It doesn't mean it corrects it to be bit-perfect to the source. We're not talking about bits dropping, we're talking about timing. In this case of a DAC, if the bit doesn't make it, there is an error. There is no error correction for these DACs, and it's good that there isn't. A faulty cable will be no good. A free cable doesn't mean it's bad. I use free cables for analog, even. I think it's a little far-fetched to say a coat hanger can do just as good as a real cable.

My point is that a 1 is a 1 and a 0 is a 0, and jitter is irrelevant. Modern DAC chips take the signal, reclock it, and clean it up, before it ever hits the analog conversion section. There are jerk-offs in "The Absolute Sound" that claim the speed at which you rip a CD will have an audible difference, despite being bit-identical, because jitter shows up on hard disks :rolleyes: I've also seen people say there is an audible difference between a file played from a 7200 RPM drive vs. a 5400 RPM drive.
 
Yobbles said:
Ever consider that you had a bad USB cable instead of coming to the conclusion that all free cables are bad? You won't hear the dif between coat hanger wire and expensive esoteric cable so long as neither is defective. Yes, that has been proven with ABX testing.
Click to expand...

I did... it's not a defective cable... the cable wasn't designed to handle to handle large amounts of information, just kb strokes and mouse inputs. Came with my Kensington USB share switch. It's thin with no shielding so it's subject to much more interference. The USB cable I replaced it with wasn't expensive either. It was just a thicker shielded USB printer cable with a ferrite core.

Trust me.. like I said... I don't believe in $1,000 cables nor even $100 cables with silver/carbon fiber etc. What I do believe in is a cable thickness and cable shielding to eliminate interference for analog connects. Which is why almost all audio my cables are Blue Jeans cables. They are 10%-20% more than monoprice but I'm paying for the build quality which I'm willing to pay more for.

As for digital cables... HDMI/Displayport/SPDIF/DVI I mostly use monoprice as my runs were short and for the transfer of 1 and 0 I didn't think interference would be all that big a problem. I was wrong which was the point of the post. Even digital cable are subject to noise and error if they're cheaply made.
 
XacTactX said:
Sorry OP I don't buy it. Read this. It's not just the cables...
$700 System (with long-ass cables) vs. $12,000 System <- I had the wrong link before sorry.

And here's some blind testing on cables:

Monster Cable vs. Coat Hanger

Audiophile cable company retracts double blind test offer (that it made in writing)

Compilation of other audio/video blind tests for your pleasure.
Click to expand...

I've read them all.. and like I said I didn't buy it either. But unless my ears play tricks on me... switching cables resulted it the audible hum disappearing. Suffice to say I'll stick with the thicker printer cable.
 
grimster said:
My point is that a 1 is a 1 and a 0 is a 0, and jitter is irrelevant. Modern DAC chips take the signal, reclock it, and clean it up, before it ever hits the analog conversion section. There are jerk-offs in "The Absolute Sound" that claim the speed at which you rip a CD will have an audible difference, despite being bit-identical, because jitter shows up on hard disks :rolleyes: I've also seen people say there is an audible difference between a file played from a 7200 RPM drive vs. a 5400 RPM drive.
Click to expand...

Aren't you the guy who basically said there was no difference in 320kb mp3's and FLAC files?
 
I believe you have that wrong. I don't buy into psychoacoustics, but I don't buy into "snake oil" either.
 
grimster said:
I believe you have that wrong. I don't buy into psychoacoustics, but I don't buy into "snake oil" either.
Click to expand...

Gotcha. I believe my wording was wrong, as I can't remember. I just remember you (i believe) saying there wasn't a difference, and then I went 8 for 8 on a test comparing the two.
 
I have heard from people that there is a difference if the metal gets switched (thus changing the electrical conductivity of the wire). Some people swear by Silver.

At 31.89 an oz...I'm not bothering to try.
 
There could be a difference in amplitude, but I don't see there being any change in the characteristics of the sound. You might want to check the silver price again ;)
 
CrazyCuz2k said:
I've read them all.. and like I said I didn't buy it either. But unless my ears play tricks on me... switching cables resulted it the audible hum disappearing. Suffice to say I'll stick with the thicker printer cable.
Click to expand...

The hum was probably from a ground loop. And the new cable is broke the loop.
 
Igthorn said:
The hum was probably from a ground loop. And the new cable is broke the loop.
Click to expand...

This is the most likely scenario by far.

Still, it just goes to prove that unshielded, shittily-made cable is demonstrably audibly worse than a decently made one in a reasonably common situation.

It's the same reason I like to use an optical cable from my PC to my DAC - USB cables tend to carry that ground loop noise in my system, whereas the nonconductive optical cable does not.
 
But a ground loop has nothing to do with the fidelity of the actual signal...it's just noise from a ground loop making its way into the amp. I still don't get how a different cable gives a "wider soundstage" and whatever else the OP claimed. Does a hum in the analog waveform ruin soundstage? It can psychologically ruin the music-listening experience, to where you can't focus on the music, but the signal coming from the DAC should literally be the same no matter what cable you use, until you get into cables flawed enough to actually drop bits.
 
My experience is the wires that you use can influence the sound by how they interact with the rest of the system. aka synergy. Now all that really means is that some cables can alter or color how the sound comes out just by how their material makeup interacts differently with the rest of the system. Call it an imperfection if you want to.

The biggest impact I have found is when you rewire the headphones themselves. Not just recable but go all the way and change the internal wiring and in some cases remove and/or replace some of the internal circuit boards. In the case of the Ultrasone 780, there is a big, huge difference doing that.
 
OK, but what does this have to do with a digital signal? This sounds like more audiophool mumbo jumbo. Of course rewiring headphones sounds different. Those cables usually cost a few hundred bucks. The mind needs to justify some change. Wires aren't going to do much to an analog signal unless you are doing really long runs. In which case you should use a balanced signal, as well.
 
grimster said:
But a ground loop has nothing to do with the fidelity of the actual signal...it's just noise from a ground loop making its way into the amp. I still don't get how a different cable gives a "wider soundstage" and whatever else the OP claimed. Does a hum in the analog waveform ruin soundstage? It can psychologically ruin the music-listening experience, to where you can't focus on the music, but the signal coming from the DAC should literally be the same no matter what cable you use, until you get into cables flawed enough to actually drop bits.
Click to expand...

It's quite possible that the hum/buzz was affecting the perceived sound quality of the music. I remember reading a study where it was found that a very low level of white noise added to music actually improved the perceived sound quality, but I am unable to find a link for that so take it as you will.
 
Neb said:
It's quite possible that the hum/buzz was affecting the perceived sound quality of the music. I remember reading a study where it was found that a very low level of white noise added to music actually improved the perceived sound quality, but I am unable to find a link for that so take it as you will.
Click to expand...

I could go back and A/B but it's at my work comp and that would be annoying. At home would be a different story. What I did do was A/B the same song, 320 KB MP3 on my cell phone (HTC sensation) and a lossless FLAC version on my desktop.

Cell phone was through the headphone out and Comp was thru the DAC. On my shure 535's at low/medium volume, I couldn't discern a difference. At high volumes the headphone amp/dac was able to push the music louder without distortion or fatigue. On my sennheiser HD650, the phone was barely able to push the headphones past medium volume.

Next step is to connect the phone to the dac/amp and A/B it.

As for my previous comments on wider soundstage etc. The ground loop may have been coloring the music/veiling it. Without the ground loop... it really did open up the sound... to my ears.
 
There's really something wrong with you or your ears if you can't tell the difference between a cell phone playing an MP3 and a computer playing a FLAC, but a cable carrying a digital signal alters certain aspects of the sound. A/B CRAP is going to tell nothing here, because the ground loop introduces a hum, so no shit, there will be a difference.
 
There was probably a bad connection in the old cable, which is what caused the ground loop (longer path to ground had less resistance). Either that or the shielding on the new cable is blocking some external noise that the old one wasn't, but that's unlikely as you'd probably still hear at least some of that noise even through moderate shielding.

grimster: how does a cable carrying a digital signal alter certain aspects of the sound? We've got the science of losslessly moving binary data around pretty much nailed by now haven't we?
 
spaceman said:
My experience is the wires that you use can influence the sound by how they interact with the rest of the system. aka synergy. Now all that really means is that some cables can alter or color how the sound comes out just by how their material makeup interacts differently with the rest of the system. Call it an imperfection if you want to.
Click to expand...

Bollocks. You have been partaking in too much snake oil, IMO. :p
 
Yobbles said:
Bollocks. You have been partaking in too much snake oil, IMO. :p
Click to expand...

Call it what you want. I had an AKG 340 stock and a modified AKG 340. There was a big difference in sound. The only modding done was rewiring the internals and the cable. I had the same occurrence with an Ultrasone 780 and a modified 780, again, big difference in sound.

Buy what you want. I prefer to not spend money if at all possible. All I can tell you is that I have tried and heard a difference. Whether it is better or not is subjective to your ears. Do not buy anything on my word. Try a cheap test run of whatever type you can and see for yourself.
 
So says you. I discount all such claims I see around the internet because none of them provides any hard data to back up their claim. It's placebo at work and nothing more, IMO.

Yesterday I watched a review of Totem Staff speakers on youtube and the reviewer claimed you need a good integrated amp with them and a reciever is not good enough to drive them. More BS to try and sell their expensive Parasound amps that they carry. I own those speakers and that model was specifically designed for home theater use and are quite tolerant of which amp is used. Any decent receiver is perfectly adequate for them. I use a Denon 789 and I am betting in an ABX test most would fail to tell the dif between the Denon and a Parasound. Lots of BS in this industry full of snake oil salesmen.
 
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Yobbles said:
So says you. I discount all such claims I see around the internet because none of them provides any hard data to back up their claim. It's placebo at work and nothing more, IMO.

Yesterday I watched a review of Totem Staff speakers on youtube and the reviewer claimed you need a good integrated amp with them and a reciever is not good enough to drive them. More BS to try and sell their expensive Parasound amps that they carry. I own those speakers and that model was specifically designed for home theater use and are quite tolerant of which amp is used. Any decent receiver is perfectly adequate for them. I use a Denon 789 and I am betting in an ABX test most would fail to tell the dif between the Denon and a Parasound. Lots of BS in this industry full of snake oil salesmen.
Click to expand...

Says me is right. That is my point. I tried them and there was a difference. One sounded different from the other. In both cases I liked the modded sound more than the stock. Will that always be the case? Hell no. You have to try something before you can say anything about it. Which I have and will say they sounded different. Test all you like, I heard and preferred in both cases the modified sound.

Why dispute me of all people? My sole purpose here has been to encourage people to spend their money on products which I have tried that deliver.

Not bullshit snake oil products which do indeed exist. Completely agree on that point.

Anyway, you will disagree and point here and there and blah blah blah. Fine. Such is the internet. This subject has long been deliberated and will continue to be so discussed from both sides. Cheers!
 
Yea, yea, yea, and people claim they can hear the dif from lossless and 320kb/s MP3 when I know in a controlled ABX test they would hear no dif at all.
 
Yobbles, most "OMG, cables!" claims are hyperbole or placebo, but different cables can affect perceived sound under certain circumstances.

Shielding on analog interconnects provides a really easy example which needs no further comment.

Speaker cables don't usually have or need shielding (until your neighbor boosts his CB radio); but cables form an RLC network with the amp & speakers, and this can create response changes that are both predictable and measurable. Look at Stereophile's reviews (figure 1 in this example was quick to find) to see what happens when an amp with high output impedance drives their simulated loudspeaker load. While those are major response changes, cables with different RLC characteristics can have similar effects.

Such changes depend on how the amp's output impedance interacts with the cable's electrical characteristics* & the speaker's input impedance. A given speaker cable will produce different changes between amp A & speaker Y than between amp B & speaker Z.

Now, can cables have audibly different sounds based on their materials, geometry, price, etc.? Almost certainly not. Unlike RLC effects, there's nothing in electrical theory to explain such differences. And practically, I've never heard nor read of anyone who reported a difference between 2 cables AND also verified they had identical RLC specs.

So, if all audible cable differences come from the interaction between amp, cable & speaker, then... HEY WAIT A SECOND! No cable can have an intrinsic sound! It may be warm in one system & bright in another. It may be more detailed with your setup than with mine. It really is all about the synergy.

But at least a few of the folks who claim to have heard a difference actually have. They may exaggerate the size of the difference, but that doesn't imply that such claims are always BS.


* Look up resistance, inductance & capacitance specs for a variety of boutique cables. That info's hard to find, ain't it? :D
 
Yobbles said:
Yea, yea, yea, and people claim they can hear the dif from lossless and 320kb/s MP3 when I know in a controlled ABX test they would hear no dif at all.
Click to expand...

Except that you are incorrect. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I did a test involving this exact scenario that some sceptic posted on here. I went 8 for 8, and stopped at that. I look forward to your response.

The whole cable argument is pretty much bull. With some even decent quality cables, you are not going to hear a difference.
 
Stereophile are industry whores.

OK, without me being able to confirm what you hear by hearing it for myself then the whole discussion is kind of pointless. I had a friend over here recently claim one of my amps blew away another amp. We were doing sound comparison with headphones. I just do not hear what he is claiming. There maybe very slight different sound signatures, very very slight, but in no way does one blow away the other. He is just deceiving himself into thinking there is a real difference in SQ for god knows what reason. I was a member at headfi and the amount of exaggeration they bandy about over perceived sound differences got on my tits so I left. Now they are claiming the $80.00 Fostex T50rp blows away HD650 headphones if you dampen the speaker housing. I almost fell for it until I saw a couple of posts saying they sounded crap.
 
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