Buyer Beware: OCZ Agility2 and Vertex2 issues

curlysir said:
Some very good information on the link, Kudos to Corsair for being up front about the new 25nm ssd's, this release may have been triggered by the uproar at OCZ but they are being upfront about the transition.

If OCZ had done some of these things they wouldn't be in the crap they are in.
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OCZ is being up front as well. The way i think the transition from 34nm to 25nm SSD problem happend was more than likely from the manufacturing process.

this is the way i look at the problem. OCZ put this product out first and they thought the product would work like the old one. The problem appears to be in the manufacturing with the the circuitry distribution from the 34nm models. OCZ is fixing the problem and offering a whole new design 25nm SSD to their customers that is on par or possibly better than 34nm SSDs.

IMO OCZ is leading the way with Sandfoce SSDs and when you are in the lead bringing new technology like this forward there are bound to be some problems that pop up but OCZ isn't filing for bankruptcy or shutting down their customer service department. They are recognizing the problem and finding a way to put out the best SSD possible.
 
SonDa5 said:
OCZ is being up front as well. The way i think the transition from 34nm to 25nm SSD problem happend was more than likely from the manufacturing process.

this is the way i look at the problem. OCZ put this product out first and they thought the product would work like the old one. The problem appears to be in the manufacturing with the the circuitry distribution from the 34nm models. OCZ is fixing the problem and offering a whole new design 25nm SSD to their customers that is on par or possibly better than 34nm SSDs.

IMO OCZ is leading the way with Sandfoce SSDs and when you are in the lead bringing new technology like this forward there are bound to be some problems that pop up but OCZ isn't filing for bankruptcy or shutting down their customer service department. They are recognizing the problem and finding a way to put out the best SSD possible.
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Wow, you have really been drinking their kool-aid.

How do you get that they are being upfront? They switched to the 25nm chips and did not change the model # or put any revision tags on the drives. The only way you can tell the difference on certain models is to buy one and check the FW version or the formatted size, on some this won't work and you have to wait for a yet to be released software. They even reduced the formatted size of several models without any way to tell until you install the drive. If you read the Corsair link they addressed all of these in their response.

If you do any research on this subject you will find that it a pretty well established fact that the 25nm chips will NOT perform as well as the 34nm chips in a direct substitution . The manufactures can make a SSD with the new chips that is close to the old 34nm chips. However on a couple of models (same # as old) OCZ tried using less chips and the performance was way down compared to the old. This had something to do with the size (not physical size) and number of chips used. Also the 25nm chips have a life cycle of 3000 writes vs 5000 for the 34. I have no doubt that eventually the manufactures will figure out how to make these new chips work as well if not better but they need to make sure that the purchaser knows what he/she is buying..

OCZ at first tried to downplay the difference until it blew up in their face. If you will go to their forum and read about this I don't see how anyone can say they were being up front about this situation.
 
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SonDa5 said:
OCZ is being up front as well. The way i think the transition from 34nm to 25nm SSD problem happend was more than likely from the manufacturing process.

this is the way i look at the problem. OCZ put this product out first and they thought the product would work like the old one. The problem appears to be in the manufacturing with the the circuitry distribution from the 34nm models. OCZ is fixing the problem and offering a whole new design 25nm SSD to their customers that is on par or possibly better than 34nm SSDs.

IMO OCZ is leading the way with Sandfoce SSDs and when you are in the lead bringing new technology like this forward there are bound to be some problems that pop up but OCZ isn't filing for bankruptcy or shutting down their customer service department. They are recognizing the problem and finding a way to put out the best SSD possible.
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LOL :rolleyes:
 
john4200 said:
I wonder if he has a vested interest in OCZ, or close association with someone at OCZ.
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I own 2 60GB 34nm Vertex 2s and i have them in RAID 0 and they perform well. Very pleased with them. Other than being a satisfied customer I have no vested interest.

I'm just calling it the way i see it.
 
Wow! That's a shame. I have a pair of the .34 OCZ drives and they're great.

This is going to put me off of buying additional OCZ drives until they make good.
 
OCZ is just one of those brands I avoid, like Thermaltake, or anything with Flower, Dragon, or Happy in the name.
 
SonDa5 said:
I own 2 60GB 34nm Vertex 2s and i have them in RAID 0 and they perform well. Very pleased with them. Other than being a satisfied customer I have no vested interest.

I'm just calling it the way i see it.
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I own an OCZ Agility 60GB SSD and it has worked great for over half a year now, and I used to be a huge fan of OCZ DDR1 memory, but that doesn't mean they haven't done shady business in the past, and what they are doing now is just BS.

Intel had the same problems with their new chipset, but at least they had the right business sense and PR abilities to recall all of the bad chipsets/mobos and will be taking a large hit, but when a company openly admits they were wrong, that makes customers far more likely to come back and give them a second chance.

With OCZ, there is little to no chance. No matter how great their products work, they are just too untrustworthy at this point as a company on a whole.

btw, the way you see it is your opinion. Facts and what are actually happening are a totally different story. ;)
 
Red Falcon said:
Intel had the same problems with their new chipset, but at least they had the right business sense and PR abilities to recall all of the bad chipsets/mobos and will be taking a large hit, but when a company openly admits they were wrong, that makes customers far more likely to come back and give them a second chance.

With OCZ, there is little to no chance. No matter how great their products work, they are just too untrustworthy at this point as a company on a whole.
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OCZ is replacing the problemed 25nm ic ssds. Read about it from OCZ WEB site. OCZ is working on this problem.

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/content.php?345-New-update-on-the-25nm-OCZ-SSD-drives
 
I feel a need to offer some opinions.

First, Micron, in the article referenced above, made the following statement: "The end result of all this has created some negative perceptions about the quality of 25nm NAND,"

This as absolutely a true statement and based on good reason. In my opinion, at this time, 25 nm technology, from a performance and longevity perspective, is technically inferior to 35 nm technology. Even though a valid argument can be made that the expected life of the 25 nm product is well beyond any reasonable use it will see, it is just not as robust as the 34 nm product is. This concerns me with respect to lost margin to random failure resulting in lost reliability over the expected life of the product. That is not to say it will not be improved but, at this time, I just do not perceive it as truly ready for prime time. I am confident, the reason it is being rushed to market is almost solely due to the overwhelming cost benefits to the manufacturers and not because it provides a better product to the consumer. I am giving some very serious thought to buying a 120 GB Intel G2 right now to be sure I have a tried and proven technology. My 80 GB G2 is outstanding so why take a chance with a questionable 35 nm drive?

Second, I think it is disgusting to see the recent spate of "blogs" published by the various vendors promoting the theme that they would never be as disingenuous as "one of their competitors". Within the past few days both Corsair and Micron have done this. I can't speak for Micron but I am a user of many Corsair products and have been very pleased with both their hardware and excellent customer service. However, they and Micron are both businesses first so they sound disingenuously silly making the statement "oh, we would never do that" in the immediate wake of the OCZ debacle. Maybe they wouldn't, but at this time, climbing on the very obvious bandwagon makes them sound silly.
 
OCZ needs to stop lying to its customers.

Take the Vertex 2 for example: it is marketed as a 285/275 MB/s drive, yet if you try to write actual data on it you get 40-50 MB/s. To Sandforce & OCZ: noone gives a fuck if your drive can write a stream of 0's at 275 MB/s, the actual data being written to the nand is a few MB/s, if even that, and what you're doing is actually benching the damn SATA interface.

A small link on your product page to AS SSD benchmarks isn't going to cut it. The Vertex 2 is listed on e-tailers worldwide as a "up to 285/275" disk. I wonder if intel can get away by marketing the i7 920 as a "up to 6ghz" processor and not list its default clockspeed because after all, 6 ghz is attainable on liquid helium!

This is a marketing hoax and they should be called out for that.

Waiting for the Crucial M4 and Intel G3, the only viable upcoming SSDs from companies that respect their customers.
 
Mushkin says they won't even use 25nm

State of the Solid State Drive
A Primer on the SSD Market and Mushkin, Inc.’s Plans in the Segment

The Solid State Drive (SSD) market is one of the most exciting and fastest-growing segments in computer components today, and for good reason. SSDs offer a host of advantages over traditional platter-based Hard Disk Drives, with many of these advantages already known to seasoned computer enthusiasts.

Mushkin, Inc. has been very eager to release SSDs with the best specifications and quality control standards that exist. Our “Io” and “Callisto deluxe” SSD series have been enjoyed and recognized the world over by end users and enthusiasts alike. However, as the SSD segment continues to grow and manufacturers adapt to the latest technologies, some irregularities and performance issues have arisen.

NAND manufacturers are currently undergoing a shift in the die size of their chips. To remain as competitive as possible, manufacturers continually strive to shrink their process technology. 2008 saw the dominance of 50nm Nodes; during 2009-10, 34nm became the most widespread die. Today, manufacture is shifting to 25nm die.

While the process reduction to 25nm reduces cost both for manufacturers and consumers, there are intrinsic drawbacks to the 25nm which give rise to problems that have not yet been solved. Because of the manner in which 25nm NAND chips interact with controllers, capacity is noticeably reduced. In addition, 25nm chips have far fewer available program erase cycles, thereby reducing endurance of SSDs with 25nm NAND.

We here at Mushkin, Inc. have always strived to deliver the best hardware that has gone through the most strenuous quality control process. We feel that consumers will not yet enjoy the benefits of 25nm Flash memory because of the capacity-reduction issues involved. We will continue to provide SSDs utilizing 34nm Flash memory chips to ensure that our customers get the quality product they’re expecting and what they very well may have ordered before. As soon as we are convinced of the effectiveness of 25nm Flash memory, we will release products that meet our standards which are accurately described as being different than their 34nm counterparts.
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SonDa5 said:
OCZ is replacing the problemed 25nm ic ssds. Read about it from OCZ WEB site. OCZ is working on this problem.

http://www.ocztechnologyforum.com/forum/content.php?345-New-update-on-the-25nm-OCZ-SSD-drives
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That's cool, but this isn't the first time they've pulled a fast one and the more I look into the situation more and more, the more I realize how sleazy this company is.

I used to have the same exact attitude as you, considering almost all of the memory I bought was exclusively from OCZ because I have had such good luck from it (2005-present).

However, it's not the fact that I don't like their products, it's due to them being an untrusting organization that makes me concerned. Party that products may not work, but more so for buying a product that isn't what it claims to be or what they promoted it as, and then not honoring the warranty.

Take a good look, OCZ isn't trying to tell everyone its made a mistake, it's trying to say "oops" and sweep it under the rug. ;)

Even if they do fix it, I doubt anyone will ever trust them again.
 
ZoNe said:
Mushkin says they won't even use 25nm
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How do they intend to do this since it is my understanding all fabs will be using the 25 nm process in a month or so and 35 nm product will not be available. I guess Mushkin can stockpile but that is expensive for them because all the stockpiled parts represents capital not working and earning a profit.
 
RhoXS said:
How do they intend to do this since it is my understanding all fabs will be using the 25 nm process in a month or so and 35 nm product will not be available. I guess Mushkin can stockpile but that is expensive for them because all the stockpiled parts represents capital not working and earning a profit.
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They didn't say they wouldn't, just that " .... We feel that consumers will not yet enjoy the benefits of 25nm Flash memory because of the capacity-reduction issues involved. We will continue to provide SSDs utilizing 34nm Flash memory chips to ensure that our customers get the quality product they’re expecting and what they very well may have ordered before. As soon as we are convinced of the effectiveness of 25nm Flash memory, we will release products that meet our standards which are accurately described as being different than their 34nm counterparts."

Obviously everyone will have to change at some point. With SATA III and the SandForce 2000 it may be harder to determine the direct effect of the 2Xnm NAND chips.
 
RhoXS said:
How do they intend to do this since it is my understanding all fabs will be using the 25 nm process in a month or so and 35 nm product will not be available. I guess Mushkin can stockpile but that is expensive for them because all the stockpiled parts represents capital not working and earning a profit.
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There are other makers of flash chips than IMFT. Most of the others are behind IMFT, and will be selling 3X nm flash for quite a while.
 
jubrany said:
According to Tony at the OCZ forums, their 34nm stock is scarce and the market price has skyrocketed due to it no longer being in production, so you won't be able to switch your 25nm for a 34. What they did say is that you can pay the difference to upgrade to a 16 IC model if your unit is only an 8 IC model... But that the 16 IC model would still be 25nm.
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Just got my drive. After checking nervously, I confirmed it's the old 34nm stock. :cool:

Installing Windows 7 now...
 
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