Busted For Borrowing Library WiFi

[HardOCP News]

I’m not sure which is worse…a library that doesn’t shut down its WiFi after hours or the guy that logs on to it to play WoW in the middle of the night. The guy had his laptop confiscated and could face charges.

The authorities claim this greedy gamer's notorious for WiFi piggybacking and has been "chased out of a number of locations" in the area.

 

[Ockie]

Repeat offender. Not much else to say here. Guy had it coming.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Seems a bit extreme since the library was negligent with its WiFi. Not only do they keep it running, but I get the impression it isn't even encrypted.

The unfortunate thing is that he's a known piggybacker, so he's built up some heat, but if you don't secure your WiFi, whose fault is it really?

Props for using 'lappy' in an article

Tanner's lappy was confiscated

 

[Ockie]

Seems a bit extreme since the library was negligent with its WiFi. Not only do they keep it running, but I get the impression it isn't even encrypted.

The unfortunate thing is that he's a known piggybacker, so he's built up some heat, but if you don't secure your WiFi, whose fault is it really?

Props for using 'lappy' in an article

IMO it's kinda like "if you didn't lock your home doors and someone busted in, whos fault is it really?".

I do admit that an open network is a bait to people, but since this guy has been shooed off several times by other places, he should have known better and should have known the complications. Besides, internet is basically free or dirt cheap these days, so there really isn't any excuse to go wardriving to find internet.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Besides, internet is basically free or dirt cheap these days, so there really isn't any excuse to go wardriving to find internet.

What's dirt cheap to you could be a fortune to someone else.

Next thing we know he'll sue Blizzard for getting him addicted to the Internet, as well as WoW, and then we'll have to pay for his shock therapy.

 

[Ockie]

What's dirt cheap to you could be a fortune to someone else.

Next thing we know he'll sue Blizzard for getting him addicted to the Internet, as well as WoW, and then we'll have to pay for his shock therapy.

Not disagreeing with this statement of yours, but should be very cheap for anyone who can afford the gas and time to drive out late at nights play on a lappy a game that costs $12 a month

Last time I checked dialup was $4.95 a month, dsl was $14.95 from SBC Yahoo, and cable was 19.95 a month for a new customer.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Not disagreeing with this statement of yours, but should be very cheap for anyone who can afford the gas and time to drive out late at nights play on a lappy a game that costs $12 a month

Last time I checked dialup was $4.95 a month, dsl was $14.95 from SBC Yahoo, and cable was 19.95 a month for a new customer.

Price will vary by location. Sure, if he can afford WoW, he should be able to afford his own internet connection. As far as we know he's even stealing that

Then again, free has its appeal.

And in this case, its consequences.

 

[Finn]

And the damage to the library for piggybacking was what?

They pay a monthly subscription - who could care less if someone borrows the line after hours.

 

[GJSNeptune]

And the damage to the library for piggybacking was what?

They pay a monthly subscription - who could care less if someone borrows the line after hours.

Well, it could've been a lot worse and more criminal than playing WoW.

 

[G'ßöö]

its stealing. the open door analogy Ockie uses works perfectly here. if you disagree that its not stealing do you rip dvd's as well?

 

[freeloader1969]

If you leave your connection on after hours, then that's too bad for you. It's the public library for heaven's sake. You can borrow books, movies and cd's, so what's wrong with borrowing their bandwidth? Personally, I don't think this person has done anything wrong.

 

[Draax]

For this to be considered stealing, wouldn't the library need to have a loss? What exactly did the library lose?

 

[GJSNeptune]

its stealing. the open door analogy Ockie uses works perfectly here. if you disagree that its not stealing do you rip dvd's as well?

Not saying it's not stealing. It's 100% his fault for piggybacking, because he chose to do it. The library has at least two easy ways to better protect its WiFi, much like a homeowner. It's not your fault that someone broke into your house via one of the doors, but not locking them is your fault.

 

[Ockie]

And the damage to the library for piggybacking was what?

They pay a monthly subscription - who could care less if someone borrows the line after hours.

Well I'm sure you dont' care, however, if you do know how business internet lines operate you would know that they pay either per gig of bandwidth utilized or they are paying for a larger business package that is usually capped.

Even with regular comcast home internet, you have a 200gig cap on your account. So far only one person has managed to be allowed back as a subscriber once breaking that 200gig limit. Usually they will ban you when you break this limit.

It's all fun and games until it costs someone else money. It might seem harmless and it might be harmless, but the fact is that you didn't pay for it, somone else did and they dont' want you to use it.

If you leave your connection on after hours, then that's too bad for you. It's the public library for heaven's sake. You can borrow books, movies and cd's, so what's wrong with borrowing their bandwidth? Personally, I don't think this person has done anything wrong.

I leave my connection on 24/7, as I'm sure most people and business do. Many businesses and public places uses after hours internet for other duties such as backing up data and updating systems.

Books do not cost money to borrow out, however, bandwidth does as you can not return it.

I'm just curious on your logic if you saw a set of keys in the ignition of a brand new sports car on a dealers lot after hours? Is it yours for taking since the dealer was dumb enough to leave it open after hours?

For this to be considered stealing, wouldn't the library need to have a loss? What exactly did the library lose?

Bandwidth, and unlawful entry. There is a law out there that bars you from connecting to anyone elses network without authorization.

If you found your local supermarket's door is unlocked and roamed around then left without taking or breaking anything... since you didn't "break" anything nor did you "steal" anything, why would the cops arrest you? Right....

 

[Draax]

Bandwidth, and unlawful entry. There is a law out there that bars you from connecting to anyone elses network without authorization.

If you found your local supermarket's door is unlocked and roamed around then left without taking or breaking anything... since you didn't "break" anything nor did you "steal" anything, why would the cops arrest you? Right....

Trespassing and connecting to a wireless network, at a public library, which broadcasts its wireless network, after hours, without any sort of protection are entirely different.

Which law is it exactly, that prevents one from connecting to a public librarys wireless network?

 

[Ockie]

Not saying it's not stealing. It's 100% his fault for piggybacking, because he chose to do it. The library has at least two easy ways to better protect its WiFi, much like a homeowner. It's not your fault that someone broke into your house via one of the doors, but not locking them is your fault.

I believe that the victim in this case has a chance to fix the problem once it has happened again, if it continues to happen then the library should be to blame.

However, you can not expect librarians to have the technical knowledge for securing their wirless access points. This might have been an old contractor installed thing or they might have been unable to configure it properly.

I give the victim the credit of doubt, now they know they have a hole and they should fix that hole. They are to blame for not protecting their network, however, they shouldn't be blamed for someone else's incursions. There is only so much a person or a business can do to protect their network. For all we know this library might have been on a non rotating key and might have had an easy password/security settings such as 64bit encryption or something.

 

[Ockie]

Trespassing and connecting to a wireless network, at a public library, which broadcasts its wireless network, after hours, without any sort of protection are entirely different.

Which law is it exactly, that prevents one from connecting to a public librarys wireless network?

I think you seem to be looking at the wrong picture here. A library is a business, look at it from that perspective... don't look at it as a public civil right that you can do as you please.

With your logic, you should be able to borrow the library's cars and computers since it's a "library"... think a little deeper than a place that you can borrow things from. Just because it's a library it doesn't exclude them from the law.

 

[GJSNeptune]

However, you can not expect librarians to have the technical knowledge for securing their wirless access points. This might have been an old contractor installed thing or they might have been unable to configure it properly.

I don't. I expect a professional to secure it during installation. They should take this as a warning, and take it up with whoever installed it. Even if the connection was thought to be "secure," it turns out not to be. The guy stole bandwidth, and the people behind the library's WiFi are deadbeats.

 

[Ockie]

I don't. I expect a professional to secure it during installation. They should take this as a warning, and take it up with whoever installed it. Even if the connection was thought to be "secure," it turns out not to be. The guy stole bandwidth, and the people behind the library's WiFi are deadbeats.

Exactly. Nail on the head.

 

[Draax]

I think you seem to be looking at the wrong picture here. A library is a business, look at it from that perspective... don't look at it as a public civil right that you can do as you please.

With your logic, you should be able to borrow the library's cars and computers since it's a "library"... think a little deeper than a place that you can borrow things from. Just because it's a library it doesn't exclude them from the law.

Typically the internet, at a library, is viewed the same way as a library's material collection. Public library's are not a private business, they provide a service for the community, or municipality.

 

[Ockie]

Typically the internet, at a library, is viewed the same way as a library's material collection. Public library's are not a private business, they provide a service for the community, or municipality.

Okay well since you want to take it down to a technical level, here is something for you to chew on.

Can you walk into a public library and play a game of wow on their connection? Can you run bit torrent, kazaa, etc while you are at it?

 

[Ockie]

I got some facts from the story here:

A police officer asked what he was doing, learned he was using the library's wireless Internet connection and told him to leave.

A day later, police spotted him there again.

Apparently he was also downloading:

The officer confiscated Tanner's laptop to inspect what he may have been downloading, Remaley said.

Repeat offender:

Alaska State Troopers had chased Tanner off a few times at other locations, Remaley said.

Repeat offender, from private homes to public places:

Tanner said he used to park in his neighborhood and hop on unsecured wireless networks, but troopers told him to park in a public place. He found the network at the library, which was unprotected by a password.

The library connection is normally shut off when the business close, was left open that day:

Jeanne Novosad, the library system manager, said the wireless connection is normally shut off when the library is closed. The library was waiting for a technician to install a timer and the connection was left on for several days, she said.

Seems like this guy is a real winner.

Either way, Tanner's Internet usage has been curtailed. He's got a home computer, but his parents do not let him on the Web after 9 p.m.

 

[Draax]

Okay well since you want to take it down to a technical level, here is something for you to chew on.

Can you walk into a public library and play a game of wow on their connection? Can you run bit torrent, kazaa, etc while you are at it?

Whether you can do these things at a library, hardly makes them illegal. Piggybacking a private wifi connection, is illegal. Who is it that funds the library?, and pays for the library's internet connection? This is the sticking point, the library is publicly funded.

 

[GJSNeptune]

Either way, Tanner's Internet usage has been curtailed. He's got a home computer, but his parents do not let him on the Web after 9 p.m.

Haha. An internet curfew but no bedtime? He's at least sixteen

Doesn't make much sense at the moment. He can't get around the internet restriction, but he can drive around all night without them noticing (I'm assuming they'd care if they did)?

 

[nilepez]

its stealing. the open door analogy Ockie uses works perfectly here. if you disagree that its not stealing do you rip dvd's as well?

It's not stealing. It's not the open door analogy. A better analogy is a sprinkler system comes on and a homeless guy breaks out the Prell and starts washing his hair. The police arrest him for stealing water.

This is a case of you tossing your old lazyboy at the end of the driveway and the police arrest someone who thinks it'd look good in their living room.

At most, this guy should be arrested for tresspassing, and that should only apply if it's illegal to be in the parking lot of the library after hours. If not, then he did absolutely nothing wrong.

 

[shadowfax]

I think you seem to be looking at the wrong picture here. A library is a business, look at it from that perspective... don't look at it as a public civil right that you can do as you please.

With your logic, you should be able to borrow the library's cars and computers since it's a "library"... think a little deeper than a place that you can borrow things from. Just because it's a library it doesn't exclude them from the law.

The trouble here is that we simply don't know enough about this story to make a judgement call either way.

The library is presumably offering the wifi to the general public for their use. Unless there's some sort of disclaimer presented as you connect to their network (and this can be done - we've all seen it when we stay at the holiday inn) saying "don't use it in the parking lot, don't use it for gaming, and don't use it after the library closes" then there may not be a reasonable expectation for him to have known he wasn't allowed to do that.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

Why is it a big deal? He caused no harm to anyone or anything. Seems kind of pointless to me.

 

[G'ßöö]

It's not stealing. It's not the open door analogy. A better analogy is a sprinkler system comes on and a homeless guy breaks out the Prell and starts washing his hair. The police arrest him for stealing water.

This is a case of you tossing your old lazyboy at the end of the driveway and the police arrest someone who thinks it'd look good in their living room.

At most, this guy should be arrested for tresspassing, and that should only apply if it's illegal to be in the parking lot of the library after hours. If not, then he did absolutely nothing wrong.

LOL! suuuuuuuuuuuure

 

[Ockie]

Whether you can do these things at a library, hardly makes them illegal. Piggybacking a private wifi connection, is illegal. Who is it that funds the library?, and pays for the library's internet connection? This is the sticking point, the library is publicly funded.

He piggybacked on both types of connections. Also as I stated earlier the policed asked him the day before to politely leave the premises. He was a multiple repeat offender. The library made it clear it was against thier policy and they do not allow such activity.

Just because you are a tax payer it doesn't give you the right to mooch off the government. You have to realize that each branch of government has their own duties and their own guidelines, you can't just go tell a cop not to fine you because you pay for the roads and you pay for his salary, nor can you just go to a library and automatically assume everything is yours.

It's not stealing. It's not the open door analogy. A better analogy is a sprinkler system comes on and a homeless guy breaks out the Prell and starts washing his hair. The police arrest him for stealing water.

This is a case of you tossing your old lazyboy at the end of the driveway and the police arrest someone who thinks it'd look good in their living room.

At most, this guy should be arrested for tresspassing, and that should only apply if it's illegal to be in the parking lot of the library after hours. If not, then he did absolutely nothing wrong.

It's not stealing? I think your analogy is weak at best for the reason that the sole purpose of a sprinkler system is to irrigate the lawn, it doesn't matter if it gets rinsed through dirty hair or not, as long as it hits the grass. Also, it's not as if this guy was homeless either, he was driving his Acura Integra, $800 laptop, has internet connection at home, plays a 12 dollar a month game which costs $50 to boot... hardly "homeless". A homeless guy in this case would have had nothing but the clothes on his back and he would have still returned the water to the lawn whereas this well equiped person can not return the bandwidth he stole.

The public library does not permit this type of activity. Also, he had multiple chances when the police asked him before to quit his activity... for an arrest-able offense (actually a third degree felony) he got off the hook several times... I think it would have been to his best interest to cease his operations.

The trouble here is that we simply don't know enough about this story to make a judgement call either way.

The library is presumably offering the wifi to the general public for their use. Unless there's some sort of disclaimer presented as you connect to their network (and this can be done - we've all seen it when we stay at the holiday inn) saying "don't use it in the parking lot, don't use it for gaming, and don't use it after the library closes" then there may not be a reasonable expectation for him to have known he wasn't allowed to do that.

The thing is we do know enough about the story, he stole internet from private homes and businesses in addition to the library and has been warned multiple times.

The libary does have terms of internet usage disclaimers like most public librarys, this does not include games, file transfers, and other private uses.

Why is it a big deal? He caused no harm to anyone or anything. Seems kind of pointless to me.

Well do you mind sharing your address to me? I do have a leech box that I'm willing to hang off your network to "borrow" some internet... no harm, no foul.

 

[Draax]

He piggybacked on both types of connections. Also as I stated earlier the policed asked him the day before to politely leave the premises. He was a multiple repeat offender. The library made it clear it was against thier policy and they do not allow such activity.

Just because you are a tax payer it doesn't give you the right to mooch off the government. You have to realize that each branch of government has their own duties and their own guidelines, you can't just go tell a cop not to fine you because you pay for the roads and you pay for his salary, nor can you just go to a library and automatically assume everything is yours.

A cop, whose duty it is to uphold the law, hardly equates to the internet at a public library, which is provided free of charge for the community to use. If this user was doing something which was against the libraries TOS then he could have his internet usage at the library cancelled, this however, does not mean he did something illegal and should be charged.

 

[Ockie]

A cop, whose duty it is to uphold the law, hardly equates to the internet at a public library, which is provided free of charge for the community to use. If this user was doing something which was against the libraries TOS then he could have his internet usage at the library cancelled, this however, does not mean he did something illegal and should be charged.

Do you even bother to read the posts? I mean really? I showed that he's not being charged as of yet and is awaiting the return of his laptop.

I also showed that he stole internet from private home users and business in addition to the library, he also violated the library's usage agreement. He might facing charges from all his other endeavors and not just the library's usage. They didn't fine him yet nor did they charge him, they simply arrested him, ceased his lappy and ditched him, they are determining if they could still bring charges by researching his past expeditions.

Also, just a little FYI, the library follows all the laws as the rest of the government branches follows, just because you pay your taxes it doesn't give you a right to claim anything as your own nor does it give you anymore right over any other citizen or the course of business. Regardless of which way you cut this, he stole bandwidth. You can argue this till you are purple and blue, the fact of the matter is that he stole internet knowingly.


I personally think he is the luckiest bastard alive as he admittedly stole private, commercial, and government bandwidth, access unauthorized networks, trespassed, enrolled in unjust enrichment, and violated the computer fraud and abuse act.... all while being warned multiple times and then being finally let go with a warning and a news article.... I don't think he should be complaining nor should any of you... .not many people gets that many second chances.

 

[UrielDagda]

Wow, why don't they just secure it.. or maybe even turn it OFF at night?

FFS, there is a lot of other REAL crime out there to deal with. I am not saying that he shouldn't have some responsibility, but it shouldn't be very severe, unless he was doing something blatantly illegal, like downloading child porn. A small fine or something and be sent on his way. And maybe telling the library to shut the damn thing off at night would help.

I guess there are those that think that he should get the book thrown at him, because we all know how if your stealing bandwidth one week and get away with it, you might wind up turning into a child rapist or serial killer later.. Gotta nip that shit in the bud!

 

[Seelenlos]

If a wireless network is open I assume the business knows what they are doing and use it.
If it is closed I don't use it. So many places have wireless open for people there is no way to know the intent of the people who have the network, it should be their job to make sure they know what is going on. If they don't want it used they have to lock it down, even more so when it is a public place like this. My first thought would be it is a public place, tax payer money etc, it is open, they must mean for us the public to use it.

 

[Draax]

Do you even bother to read the posts? I mean really? I showed that he's not being charged as of yet and is awaiting the return of his laptop.

I also showed that he stole internet from private home users and business in addition to the library, he also violated the library's usage agreement. He might facing charges from all his other endeavors and not just the library's usage. They didn't fine him yet nor did they charge him, they simply arrested him, ceased his lappy and ditched him, they are determining if they could still bring charges by researching his past expeditions.

Also, just a little FYI, the library follows all the laws as the rest of the government branches follows, just because you pay your taxes it doesn't give you a right to claim anything as your own nor does it give you anymore right over any other citizen or the course of business. Regardless of which way you cut this, he stole bandwidth. You can argue this till you are purple and blue, the fact of the matter is that he stole internet knowingly.


I personally think he is the luckiest bastard alive as he admittedly stole private, commercial, and government bandwidth, access unauthorized networks, trespassed, enrolled in unjust enrichment, and violated the computer fraud and abuse act.... all while being warned multiple times and then being finally let go with a warning and a news article.... I don't think he should be complaining nor should any of you... .not many people gets that many second chances.

Directly from the artilce this thread is about: "Tanner's lappy was confiscated and he now faces possible criminal charges for illegally accessing WiFi at the Palmer, Alaska library after hours"

This is what I was directly addressing, if you want to discuss other charges so be it, it doesn't change what I was addressing.

 

[Ockie]

Wow, why don't they just secure it.. or maybe even turn it OFF at night?

FFS, there is a lot of other REAL crime out there to deal with. I am not saying that he shouldn't have some responsibility, but it shouldn't be very severe, unless he was doing something blatantly illegal, like downloading child porn. A small fine or something and be sent on his way. And maybe telling the library to shut the damn thing off at night would help.

I guess there are those that think that he should get the book thrown at him, because we all know how if your stealing bandwidth one week and get away with it, you might wind up turning into a child rapist or serial killer later.. Gotta nip that shit in the bud!

As I posted about this earlier, they normally do secure it by switching the entire thing off, however, from what I can gather was that they forgot to do so. They called in a technician and are installing a timer to automatically switch the unit off so this wont happen again.

He was downloading files at the same time, however, it has not been confirmed yet as to what kinda files was he getting.

I don't believe he should have the book thrown at him for the first time he's done something like this, however, after multiple police warnings and requests, he continued his endevour... meaning he's got it coming.

If a wireless network is open I assume the business knows what they are doing and use it.
If it is closed I don't use it. So many places have wireless open for people there is no way to know the intent of the people who have the network, it should be their job to make sure they know what is going on. If they don't want it used they have to lock it down, even more so when it is a public place like this. My first thought would be it is a public place, tax payer money etc, it is open, they must mean for us the public to use it.

Like I said earlier, it's open during business and it's normally switched off during after hours. Also, he's been warned repeated times by the local and state police, I would think at that point you should know you are doing something wrong.

Directly from the artilce this thread is about: "Tanner's lappy was confiscated and he now faces possible criminal charges for illegally accessing WiFi at the Palmer, Alaska library after hours"

This is what I was directly addressing, if you want to discuss other charges so be it, it doesn't change what I was addressing.

Yes, if you are reading one article and basing your oppinion on one source instead of scouring around looking at the local news sites and libary information, then I'm sure you can come to that conclusion.

Out of most of the internet users, I would think that you should know better than not to trust one source in your article.

 

[shadowfax]

The thing is we do know enough about the story, he stole internet from private homes and businesses in addition to the library and has been warned multiple times.

That's all well and good, but past crimes do not establish guilt in this current case.

The libary does have terms of internet usage disclaimers like most public librarys, this does not include games, file transfers, and other private uses.

Where? Did I miss that in the article?

 

[Fooshnik]

I'm guessing this guy doesn't have a girlfriend.

 

[Draax]

I'm guessing this guy doesn't have a girlfriend.

Sure he does, well a virtual one.

 

[GJSNeptune]

I'm guessing this guy doesn't have a girlfriend.

No, they met through WoW.

Duh.

 

[Ockie]

That's all well and good, but past crimes do not establish guilt in this current case.

Past crimes? I was simply indicating that they are charging him for other crimes or are looking at it. He was warned a few times by cops who had better things to do and were nice, he returned again and continued to do the same things over and over. Also, you can be charged on a crime you committed in the recent past.

They never said they were charging him for THIS crime in it's own entity, they were looking at other laws that he has broken in the process and perhaps charging him for those other crimes. They have yet to inspect his laptop for the downloaded files he recieved. This article makes it sound as if he only visited this library once and never did anything else besides play wow this one time.

Where? Did I miss that in the article?

I think more than just you missed that article.