Building NEW SFF - help me decide!!!

[Auriga]

Hello, I am new here but this seems like the place to ask for good advice!

I am building a new pc for my husband. He is into gaming and will eventually do SOME programming on it (C++ and .net school stuff). He doesn't multitask much at all but still runs into lagginess on his current system (p4 2.0)... And he does NOT plan on overclocking. We have decided already that we want:

> A black SFF system (shuttle, biostar, etc) - NOT micro ATX like the QPack, we want it super tiny like shuttle, with as few heat problems as possible... I like the price on
BIOSTAR iDEQ 330P AMD Socket 939 AMD Athlon 64 FX, Athlon 64 x2 (dual core), Athlon 64 and Sempron nVIDIA nForce4 2x 184Pin none Barebone - Retail - $299

> CORSAIR XMS 2GB (2 x 1GB) 184-Pin DDR SDRAM DDR 400 (PC 3200) Unbuffered Dual Channel Kit System Memory Model Twinx2048-3200c2pt - Retail - $191

> Western Digital Caviar RE WD2500YD 250GB 7200 RPM Serial ATA150 Hard Drive - $122

> eVGA 7800GT video card (is there a better decently-priced brand than eVGA I should look at?)

> Standard on-board audio and LAN (no need for wireless unless it's cheap)

> DVD Burner, Floppy, etc. Already have XP.

The major questions I have are:

1. We decided to go AMD, so which current processor is the way to go?
> X2 4400 Toledo..........runs at 2.2 MHz but is that per core? Does he need dual core if he doesn't multitask much?
> Opteron 170...........Runs at around 2.2 MHz, how can it be that great? Mine from 3 years ago is a 2.8 pentium...I've heard great things about Opteron from overclockers but we don't mess with overclocking.
> Splurge and go for FX-55............ if it is REALLY worth the money...? What about it makes it the next big thing for gaming??

2. The HDD - we don't mind having small space but we want high performance. Which is better:
> 7200 RPM with 16 MB Cache SATA/SATAII
> 10,000 RPM with 8 MB Cache SATA

3. Should I get a board that is SLI capable, even if I only get one really good video card for now and add another one in a year or so? Or should I get 2 lesser video cards and use the SLI? Or just forget SLI altogether?

4. I am worried about getting all the compatability issues right... I had problems on another machine getting a mobo that didnt fully support the HD, and then the other way around lol... I will probably run my final pick by you guys for your approval!

Thanks so much! I will greatly appreciate any and all advice you can give me! It's been a while since I've built a pc and am out of the loop of current technology! >_<

 

[mr-busta]

1. We decided to go AMD, so which current processor is the way to go?
> X2 4400 Toledo..........runs at 2.2 MHz but is that per core? Does he need dual core if he doesn't multitask much?
> Opteron 170...........Runs at around 2.2 MHz, how can it be that great? Mine from 3 years ago is a 2.8 pentium...I've heard great things about Opteron from overclockers but we don't mess with overclocking.
> Splurge and go for FX-55............ if it is REALLY worth the money...? What about it makes it the next big thing for gaming??

Well, the Opty 170 is 2.0GHz stock, not 2.2. Comparing Opty 175 and X2 4400, they are pretty much identical spec-wise. Since you're not overclocking, I'd pick which ever one you can get cheaper. FX55 is outdated by the FX57 and FX60. If you're going to splurge, I'd get one of those instead. But, if you're splurging for games, I'd say pass on FX and apply the saved money for a better video card.

2. The HDD - we don't mind having small space but we want high performance. Which is better:
> 7200 RPM with 16 MB Cache SATA/SATAII
> 10,000 RPM with 8 MB Cache SATA

I'd pick higher RPM over cache any day.

 

[Auriga]

Good point on the splurging call... I tend to feel that buying the NEW thing out isn't worth the extra dough...it's quite a jump in price.

As for the X2 4400 or higher, which is where I would begin due to the FSB 1000MHz, what kind of PSU should I be looking for? I am worried that even the SFF Shuttle's built-in 350 Watts PSU won't cut it... let alone the BIOSTAR iDEQ 330P with only 300W...

I plan on going with the 10k RPM HDD for sure now. If only I could find one with 16MB cache also, and for a good price...

 

[emptyshell]

The shuttle's 350w PSU can cut it for all you have listed, if you take a look around there are some ppl running 2x 7800gtx and a bunch of other stuff with those PSU's without any problems. Im not sure about the ideq ones though, havent heard much about those machines.
The 10,000k drives are quicker, but their quite the jump up in price, I believe the only choice realy is getting a raptor unless u want to get an SCSI card...
About the clock speed of the CPU, clock speeds havent seemed to go up all that much in the last years as its not just about raw mhz anymore. Also taking a similarly clocked AMD and Intel, AMD wins There are also some games which take advantage of duel core CPU's, and in these games ive heard you will n otice quite a difference btwn single and duel core.

 

[[LYL]Homer]

I wish my wife would take care of all my hardware needs like you....

The Shuttle 350w PSU in the SN25P (or other 'P' chassis) is well known for being able to handle anything thrown at it, including high end SLI setups in the SN26P.

Don't worry about the lower clock of AMD vs. Intel, AMD does alot more per cycle. It's apples and oranges to compare that. I've built both Opteron and X2 systems and like both alot. I sould suggest the 2x1mb cache chips over the 2x512k cache. All Opterons have 2x1mb, so do the 4400+, 4800+, and the FX-60.

The new 150gb Raptors seem like they can't be beat for speed, nor cost per gb.

 

[agentzero9]

FX-55 is useless if you are not going to overclock. One of the reasons for the price preminums on these processors is that they are factory unlocked. Even if you don't think you multitask now I'd still get dual core. Everything will be "smoother" and in the futures games will be multi-threaded.

A shuttle 350W psu will run anything you can throw it it. Compare it to a quality 400-450W psu or an average 500W psu.

A 10000rpm drive will add heat and noise. I'd go with one of the recent 400GB seagate or hitachi drives as they offer great performance for the price.


There is only 1 Shuttle that is SLI capable and the price is insanely high for what many consider to be just a gimmick. If you are going to buy DUAL GPUs NOW, then get the SLI system, but it makes little sense to pay that extra amount of money to use SLI as an upgrade path.

When it's time to upgrade GPUs just sell the one you have and get a card with newer architecture, more features, and increased power efficiency.

 

[bobzdar]

See system in sig, no overheating problems and no power related issues. I have run it with another HD in it (so basically everything the system could fit except for a pci card, but will be adding an hdtv tuner). It even overclocks reasonably well, I got the cpu to 2.5ghz without issue...

Check the refurb section of newegg, I picked up the ideq 330p for $260 in Nov, might be cheaper now...

I should add, so far the system has been dead reliable, I'm running a PATA 7200rpm 8mb cache 200gb hd and a dual layer dvd burner. The games I've run on it so far have been cod2, bf2, serious sam 2 and a bunch of racing sims, I can run them at 1280x1024 (native for my lcd) with 2x aa and sometimes higher depending on the game. I actually set the processor back to stock speeds because the difference in gaming wasn't really noticeable, and the few power apps I used didn't see any tangible benefits either (3dsmax is probably the most power hungry). Everything seems to be limited mostly by my vid card. The dual core is great for every day use, and makes it so I can have 3dsmax open and running while doing other stuff at the same time without any noticeable lag. My only complaint was with the onboard audio, I got some interference over the speakers when accessing the hard drive, but a driver update fixed it, works well with a 5.1 setup and is very clear.

Also, a few of the reviews out there for the system are out of date. 1t command rate is available in updated bios revisions and has worked perfectly for me (I'm running 2x512 Geil at 2.5,3,3,6 timings). The video card does not overheat, the only time the temp rises are if the internal fans are set all the way up as the rear fan pulls air through the 'windtunnel' thing they have set up from right where my vid card fan also pulls air, but the cpu temp is such that there is no need whatsoever to raise the fans up, and I can still raise the front fan (that blows right over the cpu heatsink) all the way without issue if I need more cooling. I could see a problem if you decided to o/c to the max and ran both fans at full speed with a high end vid card, but as you said you don't want to o/c, you can run the fans at idle and have a quiet system without heat issue. Even with the fans all the way up my vid card didn't overheat, but the temp went up about 5c on it so it could cause a problem with other cards. Dual slot card cooler is out, however, so if you're planning a 7800gtx or x1800/1900xt, they won't fit.

 

[[LYL]Homer]

bobzdar,
I've been curious about the noise level of the Biostar 330p, can you give us an idea?

 

[bobzdar]

The loudest thing about the system in normal use is the hard drive spinning. You can hear the system fans if they are turned all the way up and you can hear the fan on the vid card spin up under heavy 3d use. However, unless you are going for really high overclocking (ie more than the motherboard in mine can handle, seems to max out at 250mhz), there's no need to crank the system fans up, so unless you have a really quiet hard drive you won't hear them. The vid card fan usually doesn't bother me because I don't game with the sound off, and 3dsmax doesn't torture the card enough to heat it up.

Stability has been very good, I turned it off for the weekend because I was out of town, but I think the last time I had rebooted it before that was when I installed the cat 6.1's.

 

[Steeeeve]

1) X2 4400

2) 7,200 SATAII from Seagate...10,000RPM is not faster no matter for your purposes no matter what anyone tells you. See pcworld.com

3)Forget SLi

4) Don't worry.

 

[Emission]

Agreed on the PSU, Shuttle PSU's can handle a lot of load, so dont worry. Opterons are great, if your overclocking. X2's, good if your high on multitasking and such, still good for gaming. If you require any GPU reccomendations, id say either a high-clock 7800 GT or a GTX.

 

[Auriga]

My final set of parts is:

CPU: AMD X2 4400+ (the 4600 doesnt seem to have the full 2k MHz FSB!?? )
RAM: 2 GB Corsair XMS
HDD: 74 GB Raptor 10,000 RPM 8MB Cache
VID: eVGA 7800 GT (not going to worry about SLI till later on, would rather have a single high end vid card for now...)
Etc: DVD Burner, onboard LAN and Audio.

EDIT: FINAL SFF BAREBONES PICKS:

Round one: Shuttle SN25P vs. SN26P (aka P2500 and P2600).
Since I dont plan on going SLI for now, and the SN26P is like $560, the SN25P wins at $379.
I will probably go with this option BUT I can't tell for sure whether it FULLY supports the dual core X2 4400+ AND whether it fits the eVGA 7800GT! Anyone know?

Round two: Biostar Ideq 330P!
It is cute and $299!
BUT does the smaller-than-shuttle 300W power source REALLY have the balls to handle everything I am shoving into this machine? How does Biostar compare quality wise to Shuttle brand?

Down to Ideq 330P and Shuttle SN25P: which one of these is going to fit a eVGA 7800 GT vid card in it without bursting its pants open?

*cries*

I love you guys for your help! >_<

 

[Auriga]

Dual slot card cooler is out, however, so if you're planning a 7800gtx or x1800/1900xt, they won't fit.

Thank you SO much for your info about the Ideq. I hadn't seen anyone else with an x2 in a 330P.
What did this part mean though? What won't fit? I plan on a eVGA 7800 GT and I want to be SURE it fits before I get anything!

 

[emptyshell]

The 7800GTX 512 and the 1800XT and 1900XT/XTX have duel slot coolers, there is only room for a single slot cooler, the 7800gt has a single slot so you will be fine.

 

[bobzdar]

The 7800GT should fit without issue. If anyone has measurements of the 7800GT I can measure when I get home just to be absolutely certain, but the x800 in mine isn't too tight of a fit, so I can't see a problem. I'll try to take a pic of it when I get home tonight.

 

[Auriga]

My hubby wants to go with the Shuttle SN25P so that settles it, considering it does in fact accept what I want to give it.

My last question is:
Is stock cooling good enough? And what kind of thermal paste should I buy?

 

[[LYL]Homer]

Stock cooling on the SN25P is great. I used Arctic Silver 5 on mine. I have the fan set on Auto in the BIOS and only under FPS gaming does the fan kick up a notch from the lowest (out of about 5 speeds I think). And my system is overclocked with my 2.2ghz 4200+ running at 2.6ghz, and I have 3 HDD's including a Raptor.

Tips for the build -

1. Put the Raptor in the rear-most HD position over the PSU, out of my drives that one is always the coolest to the touch.

2. Be easy with the black plastic cooling shroud when taking it off, it comes out vertically. The pegs on the shroud are wedge shaped and can get jammed in the aluminum slots behind the front of the case. Go easy on this part if yours are stuck. I bent the slots out a little while the shroud was off.

3. Follow the stickied SN25P user's guide in this forum for the build, very thorough and Aldoria did a great job on it.

 

[coffee33]

1) X2 4400

2) 7,200 SATAII from Seagate...10,000RPM is not faster no matter for your purposes no matter what anyone tells you. See pcworld.com

3)Forget SLi

4) Don't worry.

Come over and load windows or a game on my raptor and tell me its not faster. pcworld sucks BTW (Paid Off)

 

[Auriga]

Thanks, Homer, I appreciate it a lot. That will get me exactly where I need to be when the parts get here. 3 days!

BTW...I splurged on it and went with the 150 GB 10,000 RPM 16 MB Cache WD Raptor drive >_<

 

[Grimdj]

Yeah, so where do they keep the women like you, because I can't seem to find any. Knows her computer stuff and is generous? Tell your hubbie I'm jealous.

 

[Auriga]

Hahahhaa I don't know where they keep chicks like me...if you find any, send them my way coz I need female friends who like the same stuff I do!

 

[Emission]

There are plenty on these forums!

 

[Auriga]

Thanks for your help!! Everything is going great now, finally! It took a few tries to get the installation of drivers done right, but the guide at Sudhian Forums SN25P guide was exactly what I needed.

The Shuttle was shockingly easy to build. The instructions could've been followed by a child.

The issue I am contemplating at the moment is whether or not to flash the bios to avoid potential problems with the X2. I've called Shuttle support, let's see what they say...