hello everybody, well im a poor college student trying to build a gaming rig on a very small budget, $500 to be exact. ive already got a an lcd, a keyboard n mouse, and a 120gb western digital hd. so basically im hoping to spend about $500 on everything else, any suggestions?
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budget gaming rig
- Thread starter o0akoni0o
- Start date
ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe rev2 (make sure its the rev2 or youll be in for it)
amd athlon 2500+ barton
512mb pc3200(crucial, corsair, kingston)
9800pro 128mb 256 bit memory interface not the 128bit
has onboard sound
shoot for a decent heatsink/fan.
with stock heatsink/fan it comes out to $549 shopping at www.newegg.com
PS. just threw this stuff together off the top of my head
amd athlon 2500+ barton
512mb pc3200(crucial, corsair, kingston)
9800pro 128mb 256 bit memory interface not the 128bit
has onboard sound
shoot for a decent heatsink/fan.
with stock heatsink/fan it comes out to $549 shopping at www.newegg.com
PS. just threw this stuff together off the top of my head
i was shopping on pricewatch.com and figured i could get at least an athlon 64 3000 would my budget if i looked hard enough, but now im not too sure. also i might upgrade the processor in the future or overclock it, who knows, so ya, a good mobo is a must.
for $500...yes...you can overclock it and get better performance out of it...if you want a more "future proof" investment then you will want to spend more money. save more money and build an athlon64 system...use the same parts but different mobo and cpu and aftermarket heatsink/fan and not the stock one
Nazo
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IMO, when it comes to AMD Bartons, you are better off either spending $10 more for an equal numbered mobile or the same amount for the next number down mobile. At least, last I looked it was only $10 for an equal number in a mobile. I swear, it's practically not really even overclocking to set those things up > 2GHz... It's almost like they were MADE for it, you know? Plus you get a guaranteed unlocked CPU meaning you can do whatever FSB or whatever you want (provided that a 12.5x multiplier is sufficient as you have to do a pinmod to unlock higher. If your FSB is in the area of 166-200 you are just fine though.) The 2500+ should do 2.5GHz I think with decent air cooling. 2400+ will still get pretty darned high (especially since I believe that one was the last 35W versus the 2500+ and 2600+ being 45W.) The main reasons these weren't selling even more massively is because a, they aren't retail (you'll have to order oem on newegg or something like that to get one) and b, you MUST play around with your multipliers and fsb when installing one. It's not optional unless you seriously consider running your "expensive" new cpu at less than 1GHz thanks to the fact that for some reason unlocked athlons only give you 5.0-12.5x multipliers normally. Of course, you have to tweak your vcore around a little too (mine always seemed to want around 1.65 or so, but, it when I look at MBM5, I discover that my vcore can jump up as high as 0.1 above the setting, plus the mb is overvolting by 0.5, so I have it set to 1.60. Either way, it's rock solid stable at 2.5GHz@1.60 set in the bios.) Anyway, that board will do a 200 FSB just fine, but you really need your memory set to a 1:1 ratio, so if you skimp out and get cheaper memory, at least get something capable of DDR333 so you can set your FSB to 166 and still get 2GHz out of that CPU. Not that I'm saying you should do that. They suggested PC3200 (DDR400) and that would work perfectly as long as it's not crappy ram (like geil *cough*)
EDIT: Oh, and if you can afford it, spring for the 2600+ mobile. Some people report these things running at as high as 2.7GHz on air cooling alone. Probably a cooler that is at least copper based might just manage to hit 2.6GHz and keep it stable. Lol, sometimes I just feel like this thing has no upper limit since I haven't been able to hit it in the past with my previous mb. I haven't tried really pushing this new one yet though. Anyway, the point is that these things are amazing. A mobile barton can easily overclock to speeds that earn a 3000+ or higher rating among bartons for a MUCH lower price (not to mention that they will still tend to run cooler even at those speeds.) Even the 2400+ should reach that clock rating. I think that, more than anything else, it's the fact that the 3000+ and higher range runs on a 400FSB that makes them earn such a high rating. Personally, my cpu doesn't even blink an eye at a mere 200.
Of course, as they say, thinking of the future, an Athlon 64 is definitely better. Already people are finally starting to run into cpu limitations with some games. Not actually what you'd worry about, where the cpu isn't enough to play the games themselves -- a 2500+ should do that just fine -- but, they are discovering that you can't get quite as much speed out of your video card with a slower CPU. Most noticable in lower resolutions of course. As you increase resolutions and quality settings, you notice very little change until you start to hit the video card's actual limitation. In other words, if you don't need a really really high FPS, it's not a big deal. More than anything else it just interferes with benchmarking.
EDIT2: Just read some more on newegg. Apparently the stock clock speed of an Athlon XP Barton 3200+ is 2.2GHz on a 200 FSB. Now, it may well be that overclocking a lesser barton to the same exact speed will yield a CPU that is slightly slower (law of diminishing returns,) however, it seems to me that if you get it even higher, you might just get it equal or maybe even slightly above that. The OEM 3200+ is about twice the price of a 2600+ mobile. (Retail being even more.) Neat, eh? Just remember, eventually you run into a sort of wall where sheer power alone isn't quite enough. It will be several years yet before it can become even really noticable, but, eventually we will all need to get around to upgrading to the Athlon 64. (Personally, I'm going to at least wait for a PCI-E equivalent to hit the AMD world I think -- that seems to be where the video card manufacturer's feel the future of video cards is, and, to some extent, that will even affect gaming with those cards.)
EDIT: Oh, and if you can afford it, spring for the 2600+ mobile. Some people report these things running at as high as 2.7GHz on air cooling alone. Probably a cooler that is at least copper based might just manage to hit 2.6GHz and keep it stable. Lol, sometimes I just feel like this thing has no upper limit since I haven't been able to hit it in the past with my previous mb. I haven't tried really pushing this new one yet though. Anyway, the point is that these things are amazing. A mobile barton can easily overclock to speeds that earn a 3000+ or higher rating among bartons for a MUCH lower price (not to mention that they will still tend to run cooler even at those speeds.) Even the 2400+ should reach that clock rating. I think that, more than anything else, it's the fact that the 3000+ and higher range runs on a 400FSB that makes them earn such a high rating. Personally, my cpu doesn't even blink an eye at a mere 200.
Of course, as they say, thinking of the future, an Athlon 64 is definitely better. Already people are finally starting to run into cpu limitations with some games. Not actually what you'd worry about, where the cpu isn't enough to play the games themselves -- a 2500+ should do that just fine -- but, they are discovering that you can't get quite as much speed out of your video card with a slower CPU. Most noticable in lower resolutions of course. As you increase resolutions and quality settings, you notice very little change until you start to hit the video card's actual limitation. In other words, if you don't need a really really high FPS, it's not a big deal. More than anything else it just interferes with benchmarking.
EDIT2: Just read some more on newegg. Apparently the stock clock speed of an Athlon XP Barton 3200+ is 2.2GHz on a 200 FSB. Now, it may well be that overclocking a lesser barton to the same exact speed will yield a CPU that is slightly slower (law of diminishing returns,) however, it seems to me that if you get it even higher, you might just get it equal or maybe even slightly above that. The OEM 3200+ is about twice the price of a 2600+ mobile. (Retail being even more.) Neat, eh? Just remember, eventually you run into a sort of wall where sheer power alone isn't quite enough. It will be several years yet before it can become even really noticable, but, eventually we will all need to get around to upgrading to the Athlon 64. (Personally, I'm going to at least wait for a PCI-E equivalent to hit the AMD world I think -- that seems to be where the video card manufacturer's feel the future of video cards is, and, to some extent, that will even affect gaming with those cards.)
so my best bet to get the most out of my $500 is to go with a mobile athlon? this option never really crossed my mind, but if it'll offer the most bang for the buck, i guess i'll go with it. now if i went with the mobile which mobo should i go with or am i fine with the ASUS A7N8X-E Deluxe. and after looking around these boards if my intentions were to overclock would i run into less headaches if i went the mobile route?
Nazo
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The cool thing about AMD's mobile bartons is that they will work in any worthwhile desktop motherboard. That ASUS board is just fine. In fact, I used to have the A7N8X-X, which is the low-end ultra-cheapo model of the same basic board (for one thing, it's not the ultra 400, just the vanilla 400, which is nearly the same, but means no dual channel and stuff like that.) That was with the same CPU I have now and it easily pulled off 200x12.5 before I screwed up the southbridge chip (which, btw, is pretty darned sensitive on that -X board.) The only thing is, don't try to use the option to change the multiplier on the fly, it doesn't work on the nforce 2 chipset. d-: Anyway, yes, without a doubt the mobile is able to get much more bang for the buck. However, I noticed they are more expensive than they were before. Not by much mind, but, the 2600+ is now $110 on newegg. Back when I got it, it was in the mid or lower 90s. Still, even a mobile 2400+ will overclock to be able to do more than a vanilla 2500+ if you have to get one that cheap.
The reason it works out so much easier is because these things are made to run cool and use low amounts of power. While this was intended for a notebook application, the obvious result is that it works absolute wonders in desktop system. Obviously, in a notebook you have to count on it having horrible air-flow and getting roasting hot as well as having a limited amount of power to work with, but, a desktop system has a nice airy case with fans blowing the air around and plenty of room for heat to dissipate, not to mention a power supply providing well over at least 200W (lowest I've seen in years) on a pretty consistant basis with no fear of running out of power. Even if you have a UPS it has to handle that much power anyway whereas a notebook's battery only has to do a tiny bit in comparison. Just remember my warning that it's a pain since you have to manually set all three of the things for the CPU yourself. It won't get any of them right by default in a desktop motherboard thanks to that whole 5-12.5 multiplier thing and all. Oh, and btw, one of the coolest things about these is that it's insanely easy to put them on a FSB of 200 and the normal Barton equivalent of these is made to run on a mere 133 (then again, these are too, but, it's not exactly very hard to get them to do higher.) And the higher your FSB is, the better. Just remember not to skimp out on the memory. With the nForce chipset you want to keep the memory and the FSB on the same timings if at all possible (I don't because I need raw horsepower for ffdshow to make my anime look positively beautiful with some seriously high quality filtering and I'm too lazy to set my FSB to 183 -- highest my memory does stably -- every time I'm going to play a game.)
The reason it works out so much easier is because these things are made to run cool and use low amounts of power. While this was intended for a notebook application, the obvious result is that it works absolute wonders in desktop system. Obviously, in a notebook you have to count on it having horrible air-flow and getting roasting hot as well as having a limited amount of power to work with, but, a desktop system has a nice airy case with fans blowing the air around and plenty of room for heat to dissipate, not to mention a power supply providing well over at least 200W (lowest I've seen in years) on a pretty consistant basis with no fear of running out of power. Even if you have a UPS it has to handle that much power anyway whereas a notebook's battery only has to do a tiny bit in comparison. Just remember my warning that it's a pain since you have to manually set all three of the things for the CPU yourself. It won't get any of them right by default in a desktop motherboard thanks to that whole 5-12.5 multiplier thing and all. Oh, and btw, one of the coolest things about these is that it's insanely easy to put them on a FSB of 200 and the normal Barton equivalent of these is made to run on a mere 133 (then again, these are too, but, it's not exactly very hard to get them to do higher.) And the higher your FSB is, the better. Just remember not to skimp out on the memory. With the nForce chipset you want to keep the memory and the FSB on the same timings if at all possible (I don't because I need raw horsepower for ffdshow to make my anime look positively beautiful with some seriously high quality filtering and I'm too lazy to set my FSB to 183 -- highest my memory does stably -- every time I'm going to play a game.)
Falls Included
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SEMPRON!
get the new sempron 2500+ and a 754 mobo, and see how that goes. the semp is only 80 some dollars and is 333fsb, so you can still OC to 3200+ on the cheap
get the new sempron 2500+ and a 754 mobo, and see how that goes. the semp is only 80 some dollars and is 333fsb, so you can still OC to 3200+ on the cheap
Nazo
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He may be right. To be honest, I know absolutely nothing about the Sempron. I never even heard of it before last night when I was looking up info on the bartons and ran into it by accident.
wells now i feel like im in a bit of a dillema. i know im gonna be getting the 9800pro as my video card and for now 512mb pc3200 will do until i get another hundred for another stick and i've heard nothing but good things about the ASUS A7N8X-E. however, given more options i have no idea what processor to go with. most likely im going to overclock the processor and it seems like the mobile is the best bet. but are there other advantages the semprons and bartons pose?
Nazo
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All I know about the Sempron is that it's relatively new (considering that I hadn't heard of it.) My current board is listed as supporting it (which probably should mean any other nForce 2 based board should as well -- including that one you are looking at) and that's why I found out that it even existed. You should look up details around about it. It must be a technically better processor, because, the Sempron with a 3100+ rating runs at a mere 1.8GHz, versus the Barton equivalent being something like 2.3GHz maybe 2.4, maybe 2.2. However, from what I read, one of the tricks they are using when they make these -- which is part of why it's so cheap -- is that they lower the amount of CPU cache. It apparently has a mere 256KB versus the Bartons having 512KB and the Athlon 64s having 1MB (quite a whopping amount IMO.) I've read reviews saying that it's the same basic idea as the "Celeron D" for Intel.
It really looks like Sempron is more of a low end CPU to me though. For one thing, that low CPU cache automatically cripples whatever it's capabilities might be. I'm thinking you are better off with the mobile Barton. I do recommend looking around a little bit mind you. Here's an article that tells a bit about them over at anandtech:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2139&p=2
Their tests showed the 2800+ Sempron as equal to the 2500+ Barton (this is with neither underclocked btw) and the 3100+ only a bit ahead as well. And the 3100+ is based on the Athlon 64s, so that one isn't an option. I did note that their Winstone test showed the 2600+ below the 2500+ though. Rather curious. Still, the numbers are more where they should be on the other tests. Well, for one thing, I'd consider the fact that the mobile Barton is factory unlocked. That means no tricks are needed to use whatever vcore, and multiplier you want. In other words, there's nothing stopping you from using a 200 FSB with a 12.5 multiplier anyway.
I'm afraid I don't have time to find out if the Sempron is factory unlocked. If it's not though, you might not want it as far as overclocking because you can only overclock it by raising your FSB then. And that's always a problem. Most people only get theirs up to 205-210 or so. Whereas a plain unlocked 200x12.5 guarantees 2.5GHz and that's assuming you don't get higher. So find out about that too. Still, I can't help but think that even if the Sempron is basically more powerful, the low amount of cache is killing some of it's best abilities.
EDIT: Read that the Sempron runs on a 166 FSB. Presumably, if it couldn't handle a 200 FSB, the mobile Barton might just get a bit of an advantage with it's easy capability (nearly a requirement due to that low multiplier) of handling 200. Really, many people are basically just calling this thing the modern Duron -- which isn't bad, just it would be much better without having been crippled. Of course, if these things are unlocked, you might just get it to 200 easily. Heck, it might run smoothly enough that you can anyway.
BTW, you might want to look at the new Geforce FX 6800 LE and the 6600GT (they should have a AGP version out next month or so.) They are supposed to be better video cards in the same pricerange as the Radeon 9800 Pro. From what I've seen so far, I suspect that the 6800LE is the better one if you can get it (it's OEM only with limited supplies. Newegg is probably the best bet here.) They should both be at least moderately better than the Radeon 9800 Pro. Best bang for the buck as you said.
It really looks like Sempron is more of a low end CPU to me though. For one thing, that low CPU cache automatically cripples whatever it's capabilities might be. I'm thinking you are better off with the mobile Barton. I do recommend looking around a little bit mind you. Here's an article that tells a bit about them over at anandtech:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2139&p=2
Their tests showed the 2800+ Sempron as equal to the 2500+ Barton (this is with neither underclocked btw) and the 3100+ only a bit ahead as well. And the 3100+ is based on the Athlon 64s, so that one isn't an option. I did note that their Winstone test showed the 2600+ below the 2500+ though. Rather curious. Still, the numbers are more where they should be on the other tests. Well, for one thing, I'd consider the fact that the mobile Barton is factory unlocked. That means no tricks are needed to use whatever vcore, and multiplier you want. In other words, there's nothing stopping you from using a 200 FSB with a 12.5 multiplier anyway.
I'm afraid I don't have time to find out if the Sempron is factory unlocked. If it's not though, you might not want it as far as overclocking because you can only overclock it by raising your FSB then. And that's always a problem. Most people only get theirs up to 205-210 or so. Whereas a plain unlocked 200x12.5 guarantees 2.5GHz and that's assuming you don't get higher. So find out about that too. Still, I can't help but think that even if the Sempron is basically more powerful, the low amount of cache is killing some of it's best abilities.
EDIT: Read that the Sempron runs on a 166 FSB. Presumably, if it couldn't handle a 200 FSB, the mobile Barton might just get a bit of an advantage with it's easy capability (nearly a requirement due to that low multiplier) of handling 200. Really, many people are basically just calling this thing the modern Duron -- which isn't bad, just it would be much better without having been crippled. Of course, if these things are unlocked, you might just get it to 200 easily. Heck, it might run smoothly enough that you can anyway.
BTW, you might want to look at the new Geforce FX 6800 LE and the 6600GT (they should have a AGP version out next month or so.) They are supposed to be better video cards in the same pricerange as the Radeon 9800 Pro. From what I've seen so far, I suspect that the 6800LE is the better one if you can get it (it's OEM only with limited supplies. Newegg is probably the best bet here.) They should both be at least moderately better than the Radeon 9800 Pro. Best bang for the buck as you said.
Nazo
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Well, there was one DFI board that used the nForce 2 chipset which could apparently pull off a 250+ FSB with stability. Other than that, I don't guess there are really any better choices. Just stay away from the -X model, it's the low end (I got that thinking it was the normal Ultra 400 and regretted it.) Really, the mobile should work in pretty much anything that supports the bartons to begin with.
As for the video card, as I said, you may want to seriously look into the Geforce FX 6800LE and the 6600GT. Both should be a little better than a Radeon 9800 Pro for the same price (best bang for the buck, right?) I personally suspect the 6800LE is the better of the two, but, it's kind of hard to compare until both are out and benchmarked properly. The 6600GT is PCI-e first, but, there is supposed to be an AGP version soon if you don't mind waiting on it. I still say that the 6800LE should be moderately better though. Theoretically the 6800LE is already out, but, it's not exactly particularly easy to find. It's oem only, so, keep an eye on places like newegg I suppose. Also, I read somewhere that MSI was already working on their own 6800LE, so you might keep an eye out on them. Of course, if you can't wait, then the 9800 Pro is currently the best card in that price range. It's still quite a good card in fact. You can easily get good quality out of Doom 3 and Far Cry with that thing. Oh, and people seem to recommend the Saphire brand. I didn't have a good impression of Sapphire myself, but, I guess with so many people recommending it maybe I just misunderstood some things and it's not so bad after all.
As for the video card, as I said, you may want to seriously look into the Geforce FX 6800LE and the 6600GT. Both should be a little better than a Radeon 9800 Pro for the same price (best bang for the buck, right?) I personally suspect the 6800LE is the better of the two, but, it's kind of hard to compare until both are out and benchmarked properly. The 6600GT is PCI-e first, but, there is supposed to be an AGP version soon if you don't mind waiting on it. I still say that the 6800LE should be moderately better though. Theoretically the 6800LE is already out, but, it's not exactly particularly easy to find. It's oem only, so, keep an eye on places like newegg I suppose. Also, I read somewhere that MSI was already working on their own 6800LE, so you might keep an eye out on them. Of course, if you can't wait, then the 9800 Pro is currently the best card in that price range. It's still quite a good card in fact. You can easily get good quality out of Doom 3 and Far Cry with that thing. Oh, and people seem to recommend the Saphire brand. I didn't have a good impression of Sapphire myself, but, I guess with so many people recommending it maybe I just misunderstood some things and it's not so bad after all.
My suggestion:
You have: "lcd, a keyboard n mouse, and a 120gb western digital hd"
That leaves: CPU, Motherboard, RAM, Video Card.
What about a case and power supply? I'll go ahead and say you do need them.
AMD Athlon 64 2800+, 512KB L2 Cache, 64-bit Processor - Retail - $148
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-452
Chaintech VNF3-250 - $75
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=13-152-043
Geil Value Series 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - $80
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-144-305
$300 for those items. Not a bad setup, I've got nearly the same thing coming in the mail...(see sig) That leaves $200 for the Video, and Case/PSU
SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9600XT Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP - OEM - $135.00 (Can shave some off this by going with refurbished)
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-326
RAIDMAX Beige 10-bay Case, Model "ATX-208" -RETAIL - $16.75
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=11-156-011
E-POWER "Tagan" Series 380W Power Supply, Model "TG-380" -RETAIL - $45.99
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=17-101-508
Grand total of: $500.74, NOT including shipping.
Can you save money and get a better case, and shipping from the egg is not bad at all usually. Caveat to this setup is a few things... you end up over budget on shipping, "only" have a 9600 XT, which isn't all that bad to be honest.
You can save a bit by visiting the [H] Sell/Trades forum and picking up a few deals there. Be warned of trolls, however.
You have: "lcd, a keyboard n mouse, and a 120gb western digital hd"
That leaves: CPU, Motherboard, RAM, Video Card.
What about a case and power supply? I'll go ahead and say you do need them.
AMD Athlon 64 2800+, 512KB L2 Cache, 64-bit Processor - Retail - $148
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-452
Chaintech VNF3-250 - $75
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=13-152-043
Geil Value Series 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 - $80
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-144-305
$300 for those items. Not a bad setup, I've got nearly the same thing coming in the mail...(see sig) That leaves $200 for the Video, and Case/PSU
SAPPHIRE ATI RADEON 9600XT Video Card, 128MB DDR, 128-bit, DVI/TV-Out, 8X AGP - OEM - $135.00 (Can shave some off this by going with refurbished)
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-102-326
RAIDMAX Beige 10-bay Case, Model "ATX-208" -RETAIL - $16.75
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewproductdesc.asp?description=11-156-011
E-POWER "Tagan" Series 380W Power Supply, Model "TG-380" -RETAIL - $45.99
http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=17-101-508
Grand total of: $500.74, NOT including shipping.
Can you save money and get a better case, and shipping from the egg is not bad at all usually. Caveat to this setup is a few things... you end up over budget on shipping, "only" have a 9600 XT, which isn't all that bad to be honest.
You can save a bit by visiting the [H] Sell/Trades forum and picking up a few deals there. Be warned of trolls, however.
NeoNemesis
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You might want to go for the 9800pro instead of the 9600XT. Its a lot better performance for a relatively small increase in price (under 50$).
Nazo
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NeoNemesis said:
Ugh, MIGHT nothing. DO NOT buy the 9600XT. Always choose the 9800 Pro over it. Trust me, I've seen the limitations of the 9600 and even a more powerful version is still too low end to last long. And if you are absolutely going to have to go with that price range, the non GT 6600, whenever it comes out, is probably still better than a 9600XT anyway (considering that the GT is better than a 9800 Pro...) Don't worry, nVidia has a sort of little cheat, so anything they release in PCI-e they will release in AGP as well as long as it seems even vaguely cost effective (and this early in the PCI-e game, you'd be dumb not to still make AGP cards.) All they have to do is slap their HSI bridge on the bottom and they have an AGP card.
Technically you can get a 9600XT to play Doom 3 with tolerable quality settings, but, overall, even the vanilla 6600 will do better and, besides, a 9600XT isn't going to last as long, and presumably you want to get something that will kind of last a good while. The games made with the HL2 and Doom 3 engines should already start to push the limits further than the original games did (this is commonly the way it's done, for example, look at how Soldier of Fortune II pushes the Q3 engine, at least, I'm 99% sure that is the Q3 engine, though they did amazing things with it.)
well it looks like ill go wit the Geforce FX 6800 LE, if not then the 9800pro. and im very intent on going with the barton mobiles unless there's an advantage with going with an athlon 64 although im planning on using this pc for two years at the most. anyone have any final suggestions on my budget rig. preferably regarding fan, heatsink, cases, and power supply i should get? and any budget minded cordless keyboard and mouse combos out there.
Nazo
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o0akoni0o said:
Erm, there's always an advantage from choosing the Athlon 64 over the Barton. The Barton is a lot more CPU limiting when it comes to gaming, meaning that any Athlon 64 (probably even the Sempron 3100+ or whichever it was that was a 32-bit only Athlon 64) should make games run a bit more smoothly and higher framerates at lower resolutions. Plus Windows XP 64-bit is officially out now (though I'd imagine hard to get at this time) so that would get even more of the REAL Athlon 64's capabilities out of it (Sempron wouldn't work.) However, for all intents and purposes in a budget system, a Barton should still last you about as long as you can expect anything to, especially such an easily overclockable one. (Remember that the 2600+M easily goes up to the same clock speed that the 3200+ runs at stock.) Of course, I believe that an overclocked CPU won't perform quite as well as a stock CPU made for the same speed, but, it should still be darned good and relatively close. Certainly I notice a huge difference just jumping from 2.35 or so to 2.5 with ffdshow, which is one heck of a CPU hungry application when you REALLY turn up the filters. In the end, the fact that the barton is just so much cheaper and that you can get a much cheaper MB for it makes it generally more beneificial at this time to go with those since the extra cash can be spent on improving your video card or something like that for a more direct impact on gaming/etc. Now if you were buying a computer next year or so I'd say that A64 is the only way to go when building a new system meant to last -- it's that close.
Now, I personally have found that the ThermalTake PurePower 420 seems to be a pretty good PSU. It's about as stable as anything can get on lines as bad as I have (I can't help it, there isn't a "clean" circuit in the house, much less my room. Old house for one.) And for the CPU HSF, the SilentBoost is extremely good for it's pricerange, keeping my mobile under 50C easily (I think it hasn't gone over 45C.) Remember that you need to be sure that your CPU generally stays under 55C if you want it to last a good while, so don't skimp out TOO much on the HSF even for a budget system. At least make sure it's somewhat copper (better a copper core even than pure aluminum at least.) Oh, and speaking of cooling, if you do get the 9800Pro, and you want to increase the cooling on it, I'd suggest the Vantec IceBerq 4 (NON-pro, the pro is for Geforce 4 Ti cards.) That thing is so well lapped that you can literally see yourself in it as clearly as a mirror (if the mirror were copper colored that is.) d-: $13+ S/H seems a bit excessive, but, it's not really so bad for a HSF of good quality. My only nitpick is that they only put four ram heatsinks in there. I haven't seen a card that only had four memory chips since my old Geforce 2 GTS several years ago. Maybe there were one or two since then, but, not many I'll bet, heck, my sister's Geforce 2 GTS-V had 8 with the same amount of total memory. Vantec does sell an 8-pack of those very same memory chips seperately for something like $8 or so, which seems like a bit of a ripoff since you'd have an extra four, but, those can always go to some future video card since you'd generally want to use epoxy to attach them (those thermal pads almost do no good at all.)
Too bad you have to have a cordless keyboard/mouse. I personally found it more than worth it to stick with corded due to the prices as well as the lack of the hassle of keeping them charged/with full batteries. Well, at least for the keyboard you might want to consider getting corded as you don't really have to move it around much. And cheaper is cheaper, right? Either way, if I were you, I'd go with whatever Logitech combo you can find. I absolutely LOVE my Logitech Internet Navigator, though ironically I never use the internet keys (still use the multimedia pause,stop,ff,rw, and volume buttons though. Quite handy IMO.) Do NOT get the microsoft equivialent if you EVER use the function keys (F1-F12.) It refuses to remember your preference and all of these keyboards default to having the function keys turned off. It's the stupidest thing I've ever seen in my life, I swear. The logitech keyboards will at least remember as long as they have power (you may want to set the option in your BIOS to make it possible for USB devices to resume from standby, that way it should provide enough power to the USB for the keyboard to not forget your setting.) I can't really tell you about low end mice though. I started to get one, but, ended up with this nice thing instead (and boy do I not regret the extra cost.)
I hope you can find a 6800LE though. It looks like a nice card for that price range from what I've seen so far. It's just going to be tricky to get it. Supposedly the NV43 is a lot cheaper and easier to make, so they wanted to concentrate on that for their "mainstream" cards that they would theoretically end up selling rather a lot of. In other words, they are pushing the 6600 & 6600GT and don't want to have to make a lot of the 6800LE.
EDIT: About the keyboard, someone mentioned in another thread a wireless combo meant to sort of clone the Logitech stuff:
http://www.a4tech.com/en/product2.asp?CID=2&SCID=14&MNO=KBS-2348RP
Well, it looks interesting enough anyway. Weird way to do the keys, but I guess it works. It's up to you if you want to go generic, lol, just don't go microsoft is all I ask. ^_^ Anyway, the mouse is a pretty decent resolution (cheap stuff is at most 400) so it may not be bad. That's all I can really tell from that information though. It doesn't have the nice shape that my mouse has to fit comfortably in your hand, but, then again, neither do the lower end Logitech mice. I still say it's better to just get a cheap normal wired keyboard and use the excess cash to buy a nicer mouse though.
Benny Blanco
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Anakin basically had it right on the money in my opinion, go with the Chaintech VNF3-250, A64 2800, and a single stick of 512mb. The socket 754 sempron 3100 is good but I wouldn't get it unless it was under $100.
Instead of the Geil, I'd get this Kingmax 3700 (233mhz) for a super nice price of $85. This will give you overclocking headroom to hit 2.1ghz if your CPU is decent at overclocking. I'd expect 2.0ghz (220x9.0) minimum out of the A64 2800, even with the stock heatsinkfan.
As for the video card, personally I would get this 9600 Pro and overclock it a little. It has DDR2 memory with nice heatsinks on them. This is obviously not the fastest card out there, but it'll do the job decently. For $120 it is a great bang for the buck
The 9800 Pro 128MB/256bit is the only other choice for your budget. If you can squeeze it, go for it
As for your mobile athlons, they are ok, but for what you're willing to pay for a fairly high end athlon chip and motherboard, you could just get the A64 for only a few bucks more. I think you'll kick yourself in the end for not going with the A64. If you insist on socket A, at least don't get any high end socket A stuff, because you're just throwing away good money that should have went towards an A64 anyway. Something like the Shuttle AN35N-Ultra for $55, the XP-M 2200 for $77, a speeze HSF for about $8, and 2 sticks of 256mb PC3200 for no more than $40 a piece. Don't get me wrong, I love socket A (it's what I'm using), but the more you spend on socket A, the more you are throwing away in my opinion.
Nazo, it's good that you're helpful, but has anyone ever told you that you type too much?
Instead of the Geil, I'd get this Kingmax 3700 (233mhz) for a super nice price of $85. This will give you overclocking headroom to hit 2.1ghz if your CPU is decent at overclocking. I'd expect 2.0ghz (220x9.0) minimum out of the A64 2800, even with the stock heatsinkfan.
As for the video card, personally I would get this 9600 Pro and overclock it a little. It has DDR2 memory with nice heatsinks on them. This is obviously not the fastest card out there, but it'll do the job decently. For $120 it is a great bang for the buck
The 9800 Pro 128MB/256bit is the only other choice for your budget. If you can squeeze it, go for it
As for your mobile athlons, they are ok, but for what you're willing to pay for a fairly high end athlon chip and motherboard, you could just get the A64 for only a few bucks more. I think you'll kick yourself in the end for not going with the A64. If you insist on socket A, at least don't get any high end socket A stuff, because you're just throwing away good money that should have went towards an A64 anyway. Something like the Shuttle AN35N-Ultra for $55, the XP-M 2200 for $77, a speeze HSF for about $8, and 2 sticks of 256mb PC3200 for no more than $40 a piece. Don't get me wrong, I love socket A (it's what I'm using), but the more you spend on socket A, the more you are throwing away in my opinion.
Nazo, it's good that you're helpful, but has anyone ever told you that you type too much?
Nazo
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Benny Blanco said:Nazo, it's good that you're helpful, but has anyone ever told you that you type too much?
No, never. Lol, j/k. Sorry, but, I like being thorough. No skimping out on details that could be useful later...
And I agree that the A64 is probably the better choice. Though I wouldn't go for a 2200+M if I weren't getting an Athlon 64 and I wanted the system to last 2 years. 2200+M will do amazing things still, but a 2500+ or whatever will do better naturally. ^_^ I suppose that I must admit it would be wasteful to get a 2600+M unless you are willing to wire trick it since you HAVE to get above a 200 FSB to get it properly overclocked. These mobiles are unlocked with only the range of 5.0 to 12.5 for the mulipliers. The 2600+M is easily capable of 2.6GHz+, but you have to wire trick, pinmod, or even modify the bridges themselves if you want to get it to do that on a normal system (a few mbs allow greater multipliers from what I hear.) So I guess I shouldn't have been saying to get a 2600+M, lol, I just love this thing so much. In fact, I'm not sure, but maybe with decent cooling a 2400+M could do 200x12.5 without too much of a fight. I must point out that as much as video cards are used, CPU is becoming more and more used with the help of Doom3 and HL2 engines, not to mention Far Cry. Of course, I'll admit that these are still very highly video card dependant, merely that if you want it to last two years, you'll find that two years from now a 2500+ is doing better than a 2200+.
Benny Blanco
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Well, the athlon XP-M's are definitely awesome, even if it "only" hits 2400mhz, or even 2200mhz for that matter.
I may have made them sound worse than they are, but depending on how much this guy is willing to spend on socket A, he should consider the sempron or A64 2800.
I may have made them sound worse than they are, but depending on how much this guy is willing to spend on socket A, he should consider the sempron or A64 2800.
The idea I had when I ordered my (very similar, see sig) computer, is I want to run HL2 like a champ, and have something that will run a newer 64-bit OS. In 2 years, WinXP 64bit or Longhorn will be out. And the system will be able to run it, no questions asked.
Nazo
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Lol, I'll bet that the requirements for those are pretty low though. Well, XP-64 doesn't matter since there isn't a 64-bit X86 processor slow enough anyway, but Longhorn I will bet would run on a good 1.5GHz CPU with 512MB of ram (though you really should get more by then if you want it to run smoothly, XP already shows MUCH better performance with 1GB or even at least 768MB.) Oh, and officialy XP-64 is out, though it could be a while before you actually find it selling anywhere I would presume. It was supposed to start shipping on the 30th of last month to the people who pre-ordered.
BTW, bear in mind with the semprons, the 3100+ has 64-bit instructions disabled, so is essentially a better 32-bit processor than a 3200+ barton (yes) but can't do 64-bit at all unless you do some heavy modding (and even then probably not, just a theory people are juggling.) And don't forget that the lower Sempron model numbers are actually Thoroubred Socket A CPUs, NOT the A64 version of Duron. Why they didn't just keep calling it Duron up until they hit the 32-bit A64 is beyond me. Just to be sure you don't get the wrong thing if you do take an interest in the sempron. Mind you that the 3100+ is a VERY good choice as it lets you get a A64 capable board for an overall cheaper price while still having a better CPU than the barton that you could theoretically just upgrade a short while later. The main thing is that it's still relatively expensive.
BTW, bear in mind with the semprons, the 3100+ has 64-bit instructions disabled, so is essentially a better 32-bit processor than a 3200+ barton (yes) but can't do 64-bit at all unless you do some heavy modding (and even then probably not, just a theory people are juggling.) And don't forget that the lower Sempron model numbers are actually Thoroubred Socket A CPUs, NOT the A64 version of Duron. Why they didn't just keep calling it Duron up until they hit the 32-bit A64 is beyond me. Just to be sure you don't get the wrong thing if you do take an interest in the sempron. Mind you that the 3100+ is a VERY good choice as it lets you get a A64 capable board for an overall cheaper price while still having a better CPU than the barton that you could theoretically just upgrade a short while later. The main thing is that it's still relatively expensive.
wells i think i have this set...
AMD Athlon 64 2800+ $148
Chaintech VNF3-250 - $75
Kingmax 3700 (233mhz) $85
9800PRO $197
ThermalTake PurePower 420 $46
RAIDMAX Beige 10-bay Case, Model "ATX-208" $17
a little more than i wouldve liked, but i think this is a very good budget rig. any final suggestions before i start ordering on new egg?
*EDIT*
also could i get some opinions on going with the 9600 video card and ocing it opposed to getting the 9800pro. and any suggestions that would lower my total cost are always helpful.
AMD Athlon 64 2800+ $148
Chaintech VNF3-250 - $75
Kingmax 3700 (233mhz) $85
9800PRO $197
ThermalTake PurePower 420 $46
RAIDMAX Beige 10-bay Case, Model "ATX-208" $17
a little more than i wouldve liked, but i think this is a very good budget rig. any final suggestions before i start ordering on new egg?
*EDIT*
also could i get some opinions on going with the 9600 video card and ocing it opposed to getting the 9800pro. and any suggestions that would lower my total cost are always helpful.
Nazo
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Well, the 9600XT is just too limited overall compared to the 9800 Pro. It's a world of difference. I'll admit that the 9600 series overclocks like insane since the core was one of their first to be made with such a low micron method, they weren't pushing the actual limits as hard. I got my 9600 Pro up to 480/330 speeds. Frankly, the XT isn't THAT much better than what I was getting out of that thing. I probably even could have soft-modded it if there had been any kind of benefit. The fact is that the 9600 is just too limited overall, so if you want something that lasts longer your going to want something at least just a little bit more powerful. Now, if you MUST get something in that pricerange, check out the vanilla 6600 when it comes out. I think it should still be better than the 9600XT by leaps (esp. considering the 6600GT is considered better than the 9800 Pro) while still being the same cost. The 9600XT was ok and all, but it's already showing it's limitations thanks to a little help from Doom 3. And I personally believe that while Doom 3 and HL2 will work on a pretty minimalistic system, most of the games that WILL be made on their engines will push the limits too far and the 9600 will start to not be good enough for truly decent quality. (And there are already two games using the HL2 engine before it's even out, though I would assume the first few wouldn't be so bad as later.) I admit I'm assuming here, but, it's not exactly a baseless assumption... Besides, I've found the occasional older game that can run kind of sluggish on the 9600 series.
Anyway, it is up to you, but, I'd definitely suggest waiting around and finding out if the 6600 series isn't a better choice at the very least before choosing such a thing. You want this thing to last a little while at least after all.
Anyway, it is up to you, but, I'd definitely suggest waiting around and finding out if the 6600 series isn't a better choice at the very least before choosing such a thing. You want this thing to last a little while at least after all.
if you wanna save afew bucks you can go with a nvida 5900XT for 20-30$ less and have better performance in OGL games but worse perfomance in DX9 games ... yer choice
like this one
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-145-072&depa=0
169$ , 30$ cheaper than a 9800 with MAYBE 5% less peformance , and 3% more in other places
like this one
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=14-145-072&depa=0
169$ , 30$ cheaper than a 9800 with MAYBE 5% less peformance , and 3% more in other places
Nazo
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For Doom 3/HL2, I would strongly recommend a minimum of the Radeon 9800 Pro. You'd be interested to know that nVidia is explicitely marketing the 6600 line as being mainstream cards that can do Doom 3 with great quality. I still think the 6800LE would be a tiny tiny bit better than the 6600GT which in turn is supposed to be better than the 9800 Pro, but, I admit again I'm not sure. It's hard to compare with stuff that hardly anyone out there even has.
Now, technically speaking, if you don't care about quality, you can run Doom 3 with as low as a Geforce 3 Ti. It will look and run like crap, but, it will run. The point of this being that even a 9600XT WILL run Doom 3, and it won't look like utter crap, merely you will never see the true quality come out of it. Believe me, the difference between a 9600 and a 6800 in Doom 3 wasn't even funny. Ok, I didn't have a 9600XT, but, my pro was so overclocked it couldn't have been TOO far below one... Last I checked, the core is only a bit above where I had mine, and the memory wasn't faster at all. (My oc was 480/330. If I recall correctly, the 9600XT was something like 500/300.)
Now, technically speaking, if you don't care about quality, you can run Doom 3 with as low as a Geforce 3 Ti. It will look and run like crap, but, it will run. The point of this being that even a 9600XT WILL run Doom 3, and it won't look like utter crap, merely you will never see the true quality come out of it. Believe me, the difference between a 9600 and a 6800 in Doom 3 wasn't even funny. Ok, I didn't have a 9600XT, but, my pro was so overclocked it couldn't have been TOO far below one... Last I checked, the core is only a bit above where I had mine, and the memory wasn't faster at all. (My oc was 480/330. If I recall correctly, the 9600XT was something like 500/300.)
Mushroom Prince
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DirtyApe said:
I'd second
also, my girl friend lets me lick A1 sauce off her nipples
Mushroom Prince
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Nazo said:
Being the proud owner of a 9800 pro, I'm pretty sure most people could be satisfied with the MSI 9800 pro.
Nazo
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I'll admit that the difference between the 9800 Pro and the 6800LE/6600GT probably isn't exactly a world apart. More than anything else, it's a matter of the whole best bang for the buck kind of thing. Those two should perform just ever so slightly better in DX9, and nVidia has had the OpenGL advantage for a while, so they'd probably run circles around the 9800 Pro in OGL games (here's hoping HL2 uses OGL so I can REALLY see what my card is capable of. Lol.) Anyway, the 9800 Pro is definitely a great card, no doubt about it. ATM, of what us humans can actually BUY, it's the best in it's pricerange since the others aren't even available yet.
Oh, and don't feel too badly about nVidia pulling this little stunt to compete with ATI. ATI has been sitting around too long just making high end versions of their old stuff. This type of thing is forcing them to finally get around to making more stuff to truly compete with nVidia I'm hoping. I used to prefer ATI myself, especially after the FX5200 (which I was lucky enough to NOT ever buy.) But they need to be making truly new stuff, not "XT" versions of their old stuff that basically just has a better made core. I want to see them making their own new stuff such as nVidia's new Pixel Shader 3.0 system (even if, from what I hear, it really is primarily just to make the programmer's life easier so that it doesn't really have a HUGE performance difference.)
Oh, and don't feel too badly about nVidia pulling this little stunt to compete with ATI. ATI has been sitting around too long just making high end versions of their old stuff. This type of thing is forcing them to finally get around to making more stuff to truly compete with nVidia I'm hoping. I used to prefer ATI myself, especially after the FX5200 (which I was lucky enough to NOT ever buy.) But they need to be making truly new stuff, not "XT" versions of their old stuff that basically just has a better made core. I want to see them making their own new stuff such as nVidia's new Pixel Shader 3.0 system (even if, from what I hear, it really is primarily just to make the programmer's life easier so that it doesn't really have a HUGE performance difference.)
well after much consideration and examination of my current needs, i think im going to go back with the setup DirtyApe suggested. however, instead of the 2500+ Barton im going with the 2500 mobile and overclock it. im going to stick with 512 mb of ram till i can afford 512 more and im mostly likely going with the 9800pro. other than that, all i need are some good fan and heatsinks reccommendations and i'll be good to go.
Nazo
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Good choices IMO. Do get the memory as soon as you can, but, luckily, that's one of those things you can easily wait around and upgrade later. The performance difference will be QUITE noticable when you do though, especially if you are using Windows XP (which is most likely I would assume) since it loves to eat up nearly 200MB on startup even when I was using Litestep with a minimal amount of services and everything.
As for the HSF, I still recommend the "SilentBoost" as being one of the nicer ones in it's pricerange (yes, many might tell you that they swear off ThermalTake as evil, but, for this low of a pricerange, it's a pretty darned good HSF IMO.) The most important thing however is just to be sure you get copper, not aluminum. The heat absorbtion/dissipation difference is definitely worth the extra cost. Personally, I stuck one of those little Vantec HSFs on my northbridge. I'm using a modified Iceberq 4 from an old video card, but, they actually sell a HSF made specifically for the chipset, so that's obviously a better choice. Something like $13 for it I believe. You might or might not get your FSB up a little higher that way. If nothing else, your system should be a tad more stable with higher temperatures. Oh, and do be sure to take any label off the southbridge and stick SOME kind of heatsink on there. I've found that with this particular chipset the southbridge is a lot more sensitive than people think (probably manufacturer's taking shortcuts really though.)
As for the HSF, I still recommend the "SilentBoost" as being one of the nicer ones in it's pricerange (yes, many might tell you that they swear off ThermalTake as evil, but, for this low of a pricerange, it's a pretty darned good HSF IMO.) The most important thing however is just to be sure you get copper, not aluminum. The heat absorbtion/dissipation difference is definitely worth the extra cost. Personally, I stuck one of those little Vantec HSFs on my northbridge. I'm using a modified Iceberq 4 from an old video card, but, they actually sell a HSF made specifically for the chipset, so that's obviously a better choice. Something like $13 for it I believe. You might or might not get your FSB up a little higher that way. If nothing else, your system should be a tad more stable with higher temperatures. Oh, and do be sure to take any label off the southbridge and stick SOME kind of heatsink on there. I've found that with this particular chipset the southbridge is a lot more sensitive than people think (probably manufacturer's taking shortcuts really though.)