BTX buzz... Why the big deal now?

[ReubenRosa]

I don't understand why Hard is so excited about BTX only now? Nearly a year ago Gateway released BTX MEdia CEnter pcs.. and now that Dell has announced it.. Its splashed all over the front page.. I Don't understand the fascination. Best Buy has been selling Gateway BTX systems for that long. Yet there were no big articles here about it. Yet dell does it.. and its news? Those system pics of the Dell ARe indentical to the inners of a Gateway Btx system.
No suprise there. And before anyone gets on me.. I am not suggesting any favoritism I just think it be fair that Gateway be givin props for being the first.

 

[FlatLine84]

My only speculation is that since Dell is more popular, it may have the ability to have more of an impact on the future of BTX.

 

[Elledan]

My only speculation is that since Dell is more popular, it may have the ability to have more of an impact on the future of BTX.

The pictures on the frontpage of Dell's BTX system gave me a good laugh/scare, though. It had 'poor cooling' written all over it.

Suffice it to say that in my opinion anyone who buys a BTX system was either forced to do so, or doesn't know anything about good airflow.

 

[FlatLine84]

I definately questioned Dell's setup of BTX, but BTX in general offers awsome air flow. Just do a google on it, if you haven't already.

 

[01101001]

I thought the whole point of BTX was improved airflow.

 

[FlatLine84]

It does, that is the whole point of BTX, but Dell doesn't seem to have better airflow over the memory, it's horizontal so air will flow over it better, but it looks like it's cluttered around it. The CPU setup is nice the though.

 

[pxc]

The pictures on the frontpage of Dell's BTX system gave me a good laugh/scare, though. It had 'poor cooling' written all over it.

Suffice it to say that in my opinion anyone who buys a BTX system was either forced to do so, or doesn't know anything about good airflow.

I laughed reading your post because the whole point of BTX is better cooling than ATX. Look at the airflow/pressure pictures for BTX cases. BTX case designs don't let heat build up in the case like current ATX cases do:

(BTX) external cool air -> CPU -> memory and cards -> exhaust out the back of the case

I thought most of the BTX haters were just doing it now because AMD wasn't going to support it. BTX would be better than ATX for the hotter dual core A64s coming out soon.

 

[Elledan]

I laughed reading your post because the whole point of BTX is better cooling than ATX. Look at the airflow/pressure pictures for BTX cases. BTX case designs don't let heat build up in the case like current ATX cases do:

(BTX) external cool air -> CPU -> memory and cards -> exhaust out the back of the case

I thought most of the BTX haters were just doing it now because AMD wasn't going to support it. BTX would be better than ATX for the hotter dual core A64s coming out soon.

Actually, it's me who should be laughing ^_-

The energy (heat) energy-absorption graph for air has the form of an inverted exponential function. This means that at lower temperatures, air can warm up far more easily than at higher temperatures.

In the case of furnaces, this concept is used to improve heating efficiency: the incoming air is directed over the cooler parts first, to get to the warmest parts only right before the end.

Now, with BTX, the intake air is directed over the hottest part first (the CPU), meaning that the rest of the component's system aren't cooled as well as they could be.

With ATX, the CPU is cooled right before the air is exhausted. In an ATX system the air is warmed up gradually, by the coolest parts first, so that the largest possible amount of heat is extracted from the system.

As a result, a BTX system will never be able to extract the same amount of heat from its components as an ATX system.

Heat build-up with ATX systems? Only with poorly designed and/or implemented cooling strategies, as the ATX specification, unlike the BTX one, does not specify any kind of cooling strategy, aside from recommending that the PSU's fans be used for exhaust.

If the heat from the CPU is directly removed from the system (see watercooling systems, ducting), and the same thing is done for the GPU(s) in the system (some cooling solutions for GPUs exhaust air directly outside the case), then there should be no problem with regard to the build-up of heat.

 

[FlatLine84]

Have you even bothered to look at an actual setup of BTX, the processor is singled out in the equation and cool air is pulled over it then exhausted, it doesn't heat up any of the other parts. Meanwhile, the RAM is horizontal so air can flow over it better, and the location for expansion cards are more towards the top of the case, with the video card fan facing up, so heat is removed more efficiently by the PSU fan or a blow hole.
And if you look at the picture of Dell's setup, air from the inside of the case is pulled through the CPU heatsink, then exhausted, and it's pulled from the lower end of the case. For that matter if you look at any of Dell's ATX systems they currently do this anyhow (except for where the CPU is actually oriented).

 

[FlatLine84]

And as far as saying a BTX system will never be able to be as cool as an ATX system, we'll just have to wait and see when more testing is done, when more options are available.

 

[bvincent]

So why is my system and (every major component - cpu, gpu, HD and ambient) cooler now that I've changed from a ATX style case to a BTX style case? Same components, different case. My ATX case had 6 fans so it did not have bad airflow. Looking at the design, I assumed a BTX case would do a better job of cooling and no surprise to me, it did, with less fans even.

Actually, it's me who should be laughing ^_-

The energy (heat) energy-absorption graph for air has the form of an inverted exponential function. This means that at lower temperatures, air can warm up far more easily than at higher temperatures.

In the case of furnaces, this concept is used to improve heating efficiency: the incoming air is directed over the cooler parts first, to get to the warmest parts only right before the end.

Now, with BTX, the intake air is directed over the hottest part first (the CPU), meaning that the rest of the component's system aren't cooled as well as they could be.

With ATX, the CPU is cooled right before the air is exhausted. In an ATX system the air is warmed up gradually, by the coolest parts first, so that the largest possible amount of heat is extracted from the system.

As a result, a BTX system will never be able to extract the same amount of heat from its components as an ATX system.

Heat build-up with ATX systems? Only with poorly designed and/or implemented cooling strategies, as the ATX specification, unlike the BTX one, does not specify any kind of cooling strategy, aside from recommending that the PSU's fans be used for exhaust.

If the heat from the CPU is directly removed from the system (see watercooling systems, ducting), and the same thing is done for the GPU(s) in the system (some cooling solutions for GPUs exhaust air directly outside the case), then there should be no problem with regard to the build-up of heat.

 

[MartinX]

My only speculation is that since Dell is more popular, it may have the ability to have more of an impact on the future of BTX.

Dell IS the desktop PC industry, the massive volume of BTX stuff that they will commission will take BTX off the margins and dump it firmly in the mainstream.

Gateway is a peon next to Dell, with barely a fraction of the global market power/influence that Dell wields.

 

[pxc]

If the heat from the CPU is directly removed from the system (see watercooling systems, ducting), and the same thing is done for the GPU(s) in the system (some cooling solutions for GPUs exhaust air directly outside the case), then there should be no problem with regard to the build-up of heat.

Because that's a major sore point of ATX case, poor air circulation. laughs last, laughs best, etc.

Good that was fixed in BTX.

 

[Elledan]

Have you even bothered to look at an actual setup of BTX, the processor is singled out in the equation and cool air is pulled over it then exhausted, it doesn't heat up any of the other parts.

That's not what the BTX spec says. The thermal module which cools the CPU exhausts in the case, so the CPU's heat does heat up the rest of the components.

Meanwhile, the RAM is horizontal so air can flow over it better,

Irrelevant as long as the air is warmer than in an ATX case to begin with.

and the location for expansion cards are more towards the top of the case, with the video card fan facing up, so heat is removed more efficiently by the PSU fan or a blow hole.

It still doesn't solve the cooling issue with an SLI setup, though.

And if you look at the picture of Dell's setup, air from the inside of the case is pulled through the CPU heatsink, then exhausted, and it's pulled from the lower end of the case.

No, it's taken in from the front, and exhausted into the case.

For that matter if you look at any of Dell's ATX systems they currently do this anyhow (except for where the CPU is actually oriented).

So in effect BTX hasn't made a difference for Dell systems, then. Right?

So why is my system and (every major component - cpu, gpu, HD and ambient) cooler now that I've changed from a ATX style case to a BTX style case? Same components, different case. My ATX case had 6 fans so it did not have bad airflow. Looking at the design, I assumed a BTX case would do a better job of cooling and no surprise to me, it did, with less fans even.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, but that's because your previous cooling solution sucked.

ATX isn't a magic bullet when it comes to cooling a system. It merely provides the most optimal layout of the components so far, leaving the one building the system to cool the components in the most efficient manner possible, using one or more of the previously mentioned methods, for example.

Most people just put in a lot of intake and exhaust fans and think that they'll somehow get proper airflow through the case, which is about as likely as winning the lottery. Twice. Every month.

Besides, what magic properties people ascribe to BTX's thermal module are left unused anyway when the system is watercooled, in which case I can't see how there could possibly be any benefits to BTX whatsoever, aside from a more cramped case. Which isn't a benefit, I guess.

 

[ReubenRosa]

So dell is massive.. Big deal.. Since when does Hardocp cater to the masses?
Hardocp is not a mainstream site by any means. I think its an insult to hardocp to even suggest that. Seriously. So my point still stands... If BTX is that badass.. Gateway should still get the props over Dell. I mean damn it Dell still doesn't even produce AThlon64 based systems. So why the love for dell?

 

[InorganicMatter]

So dell is massive.. Big deal.. Since when does Hardocp cater to the masses?
Hardocp is not a mainstream site by any means. I think its an insult to hardocp to even suggest that. Seriously. So my point still stands... If BTX is that badass.. Gateway should still get the props over Dell. I mean damn it Dell still doesn't even produce AThlon64 based systems. So why the love for dell?

It's not that there is love for Dell, you have to think of them as the Microsoft of hardware. M$ (practically) controls the software industry with Windows. The same thing goes for Dell. They have such a large market share that when they go BTX, eveyone else will either have to follow suite or risk taking a hit.

 

[CrimandEvil]

So why is my system and (every major component - cpu, gpu, HD and ambient) cooler now that I've changed from a ATX style case to a BTX style case? Same components, different case. My ATX case had 6 fans so it did not have bad airflow. Looking at the design, I assumed a BTX case would do a better job of cooling and no surprise to me, it did, with less fans even.

More fans does not mean better or good cooling.

If you have better designed ATX mobos and cases then you don't need BTX, this is simple a matter of Intel trying to cope with the massive heat put out by their Prescotts. Why design a cooler chip when you can simple shove a "better" standard down our throats?

And yes the CPU does dump it's heat into the case to heat up other parts, haven't you looked at the specs FlatLine?

Oh and I'm not even going to mention how loud BTX is.

 

[FlatLine84]

Yes, the CPU does dump it's heat into the case, I never said it didn't, but if you look at many of the cases being desgined for BTX, they have a plastic tunnel that funnels the air to the CPU, then out the back.

 

[S1nF1xx]

BTX is a joke. It's just Intel saying:
"We have a chip here (Prescott) that wastes a ridiculous amount of energy. We really don't want to put any effort what-so-ever into designing a mainstream desktop chip that has any efficancy built into it. Instead, we're just going to redesign the case and make the HSFs bigger."

So when the next Pentium comes out, and it needs to disipate 500W what kind of case will Intel design then?

They need to spend a "little" more money and time on R&D to make a chip that isn't so wasteful. In a few years, when other methods of chip making are available, the BTX standard will be mocked relentlessly. It's a horrible work-around for a problem that needs to be addressed now.


I don't need a flamesuit for this one. I'll just sit in a BTX case with a stock Intel HSF. That should protect me just fine.

 

[xonik]

My take on this is that the jury is still out. All I see right now is a bunch of armchair thermodynamics experts giving their opinions for or against this concept. Let's see some real tests on BTX-form-factor systems. This is about more than just temperatures--it's about noise, reliability, size, cost.

 

[FlatLine84]

Exactly

 

[MartinX]

So dell is massive.. Big deal.. Since when does Hardocp cater to the masses?
Hardocp is not a mainstream site by any means. I think its an insult to hardocp to even suggest that. Seriously. So my point still stands... If BTX is that badass.. Gateway should still get the props over Dell. I mean damn it Dell still doesn't even produce AThlon64 based systems. So why the love for dell?

What?

What love for Dell?

I could give a fuck about Dell or HP or Gateway.

You asked "why the big deal now?", the answer is "Because the biggest PC retailer in the world is starting to ship it", "props" to Dell or Gateway has nothing to do with it.

And what the fuck does the [H] being "Mainstream" or not have to do with it.

It's like debating the existence of gravity, It doesn't really matter who wins the argument, I'm still not jumping off the fucking building.

Dell going BTX means the industry goes BTX, it's that simple.

 

[Trepidati0n]

BTX is a joke. It's just Intel saying:
"We have a chip here (Prescott) that wastes a ridiculous amount of energy. We really don't want to put any effort what-so-ever into designing a mainstream desktop chip that has any efficancy built into it. Instead, we're just going to redesign the case and make the HSFs bigger."

So when the next Pentium comes out, and it needs to disipate 500W what kind of case will Intel design then?

They need to spend a "little" more money and time on R&D to make a chip that isn't so wasteful. In a few years, when other methods of chip making are available, the BTX standard will be mocked relentlessly. It's a horrible work-around for a problem that needs to be addressed now.


I don't need a flamesuit for this one. I'll just sit in a BTX case with a stock Intel HSF. That should protect me just fine.

You must love drawing conclusions based upon information you don't have. And you must lve even more removing pieces of information to support your argument. BTX was already designed before Prescott was even known about.

-tReP

 

[S1nF1xx]

You must love drawing conclusions based upon information you don't have. And you must lve even more removing pieces of information to support your argument. BTX was already designed before Prescott was even known about.

-tReP

What's the whole point of BTX? To help remove the massive amounts of heat caused primarily by the CPU. Right? Well, where's it going to end? Instead of trying to create more efficient chips, that waste less electricity, that run better and cost less money they're just going to change the case. So we have to get a new motherboard and case formfactor to accomodate for this? What about when the dual core or maybe quad-core chips need more cooling?

I just want to know where's it going to end. When we have to phase-change cool our rigs? Or when they develop more efficient chips.

 

[Trepidati0n]

What's the whole point of BTX? To help remove the massive amounts of heat caused primarily by the CPU. Right? Well, where's it going to end? Instead of trying to create more efficient chips, that waste less electricity, that run better and cost less money they're just going to change the case. So we have to get a new motherboard and case formfactor to accomodate for this? What about when the dual core or maybe quad-core chips need more cooling?

I just want to know where's it going to end. When we have to phase-change cool our rigs? Or when they develop more efficient chips.

The main point of BTX was to correct the thermal flaw when desktops that were flat were put on their side (towers). Think about your video card...shouldn't the components be on the other side? The orginal desktop was a great for thermal. But people liked towers for "ease of use" and "smaller footprint". The new BTX design will definately allow for more efficient towers both wiring/build wise and thermal wise. All in all..it is better.

 

[Elledan]

The main point of BTX was to correct the thermal flaw when desktops that were flat were put on their side (towers).

Not really. The only way to get the same cooling properties as with a desktop system is to flip the tower on its side.

Think about your video card...shouldn't the components be on the other side?

This would be great for the first slot, but for any of the following ones it doesn't matter at all. Your desktop system is still the better choice.

The orginal desktop was a great for thermal. But people liked towers for "ease of use" and "smaller footprint"..

Strictly taken, SFF systems are desktop systems, though

The new BTX design will definately allow for more efficient towers both wiring/build wise and thermal wise. All in all..it is better.

Wiring is totally up to the case manufacturers and the people who put the systems together. Thermally speaking, both my instincts and my brain are telling me that BTX is less efficient than ATX.

It's not that there is love for Dell, you have to think of them as the Microsoft of hardware. M$ (practically) controls the software industry with Windows. The same thing goes for Dell. They have such a large market share that when they go BTX, eveyone else will either have to follow suite or risk taking a hit.

Did Dell ever use WTX?

 

[S1nF1xx]

The main point of BTX was to correct the thermal flaw when desktops that were flat were put on their side (towers). Think about your video card...shouldn't the components be on the other side? The orginal desktop was a great for thermal. But people liked towers for "ease of use" and "smaller footprint". The new BTX design will definately allow for more efficient towers both wiring/build wise and thermal wise. All in all..it is better.

The one thing I strongly agree with is the video card. I always thought it was stupid for them to have the chip on the "bottom" of the card. Heat rises, it only makes sense for the chip to be on top.

I'm not saying BTX won't help cooling the PC. I would like them to worry more about developing better chips than workarounds though. With dual core chips and 65-nono chips coming out soon, how long will it be until BTX cases turn in to mini-bake ovens if current trends continue? Not too long. Then we'll be back at the same point with some other new case design shoved down our throats by InDell (get it...Intell/Dell....haha )

 

[FlatLine84]

I'm sure CPU manufactures are working on a way to make them more efficient, but would you rather just have them only develope and not sell? Only sell when they have a more efficient chip? I mean they can't just come up with it.

 

[S1nF1xx]

I'm sure CPU manufactures are working on a way to make them more efficient, but would you rather just have them only develope and not sell? Only sell when they have a more efficient chip? I mean they can't just come up with it.

I'm not saying BTX won't help. I don't want to adopt a new design and then have Intel come out in 3 years with Über-ultra-TX form factor because the P6 keeps ramping up thermal requirements.

But since it's all speculation, I think I'll end my ramblings here.