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Blown Caps? Explain please...

M

Mase

2[H]4U
Joined
Dec 18, 2000
Messages
2,771
I've never had a problem with generic power supplies...I needed a new one recently to replace the stock AOpen that came with my case. I opted for a cheap/functional CoolMax 400W...got in in my box, also had a snazzy new 6800GT loaded in there, powered on and PFFFFTTT!!!!! Smoke, flames, etc coming from a cap on my new vid card....

I see in another thread someone stating Powmax PS's were know to "blow caps"... i take it this is what was meant by that? Is this something that happens often? My 1st experience here and I'm perplexed that its that easy to fry good hardware??? :confused:

So now I have RMA's my vid card, I'm sketched out to throw a new one back on my rig with the CoolMax. I am thinking about getting a new one AGAIN, Fortron seems to be liked here...question is, what is the minumum I could get by with, money is tight. I have the rig listed in my sig, a new SATA HD, 1 optical drive, 3 80mm + 1 120mm fan, would a 400w suffice? I like the 120mm fans on the Fotron, can I just get one in my price range or are they differing?
NewEgg Fortrons
 
the really funny part is
that more than likely that AOpen was a Fortron :p
(95% of the AOpen line are FSPs)

there is the possibility that is a blown surge capacitor
and that the PSU was responsible for it

A surge capacitor is a device designed to absorb surges and/or reduce the steepness of their wave front. A capacitor is able to absorb and hold a charge of electricity, returning it to the circuit at a later time. Since the surge capacitor is always connected to the power circuit, current flows at all times. When a surge occurs, added current flows to the capacitor thereby lowering the intensity of the surge voltage. The amount of current the capacitor can absorb depends on the size of the capacitor, and the amount of voltage pushing the current. If the surge is of a low current relative to its voltage intensity, the capacitor will absorb it. If the surge has high current, the capacitor cannot absorb it.


http://www.overclockers.com/tips469/#ggviewer-offsite-nav-12464416
Manufacturers choose a capacitor with a voltage rating that is equal to or just greater than the voltage that must be withstood. This is done to minimize the cost and volume of the capacitor.

The two primary measures of a capacitor are it's capacitance (commonly measured in uF or pF) and it's rated voltage. The capacitance is the charge storage capacity. The higher the capacitance, the more charge the device can store. The rated voltage is the maximum voltage the capacitor can withstand before it fails or degrades substantially from it's rated performance.

The capacitor that you replaced is an electrolytic capacitor commonly used for DC power supply filtering. The filtering ability of a capacitor used in this manner is almost exclusively dependent upon it's capacitance. The voltage rating only determines what voltage it can withstand. Using a higher voltage rating will not, in most cases, improve the filtering.

Using a higher capacitance value will, however, potentially improve the filtering and, hence, possibly the stability. The reason for this is that digital circuits introduce current transients in their power supply leads as their outputs switch. If the power is not adequately filtered, these transients can disrupt other circuits, causing errors or other undesirable behavior.

As I stated, the capacitance *predominately* determines the amount of filtering. However, higher voltage ratings usually imply a lower ESR (Equivalent Series Resistance). A capacitor, like any electronic device, is not ideal. A first order model of a capacitor is an ideal capacitor in series with a small resistance.

The small resistance reduces the "Q" or quality factor of the capacitor, thereby degrading it's performance relative to an ideal capacitor of the same capacitance. In DC filtering applications ,like the one you replaced, the degradation is usually negligible. However, in power supply rectifier filtering applications, the ESR can be important as a low ESR will improve the ripple performance.

So, the capacitor you put in there will work just fine. A unit with a lower voltage rating, but higher capacitance rating, may improve stability if the manufacturer really skimped on the design and the filtering was marginal, but this is unlikely. Your biggest worry
should be that you bought a capacitor from Radio Shack. Most RS components are of low quality and usually don't last as long. However, since no one uses a mobo for more than a couple years this is of no consequence.

Cliff Chase - Chief Scientist - Klein Assoc, Inc.
Click to expand...
 
Ice Czar said:
the really funny part is
that more than likely that AOpen was a Fortron :p
(95% of the AOpen line are FSPs)
Click to expand...
Wow, never knew that! I have an Aopen thats been running in a light duty server for a few years now, never had any problems.

Blown caps are kinda common, there was a company that tried to make caps based off another companies formula a few years back, and got it wrong. http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2003Feb/bch20030207018535.htm
Not sure if they were also used in power supplies. My advice, never EVER use a cheap power supply. Thats like using a $20 generic pacemaker. You dont want something cheap in charge of your entire system ;)
 
are you shittin me?
Ya know, I have a very OC'd system, lots of fans, lots of draw...
I needed a new PS because once and awhile i get random rebooots.
I figured it to the crappy PS, which in all honesty works pretty well.
Maybe its just not quite powerful enough with everything I got...
Its only a 350...
oh the irony...
So do i really drop $90 on a new PS? I never spent that much on one...
kinda painful the 1st time...not nearly as painful as reboxin that GT though :mad:
How can you tell if its a Fortron?
 
well FSP makes a wide range of PSUs
what was likely bundled with the case not being a top shelf solution from them, but then again you can probably trust the specs listed on it

but there is never a substitute for actually running the numbers
and then factoring in windage for a given supply
 
Thanks for the linkage on the caps Saturnine!

and as for that link to the 530? Dont I want the new V2 versions of say the Bluestorm?
for a mere $10 more? I thought I was reading that the new V2's were better than that trusty 530 you linked to?
I think there is a thread out there now on page 1 or 2 explaining this.
Thanks though...I imagine both would work quite well...
the other is much sexier though...looks IDENTICAL to the CoolMax i hate...
same rear grill, big fan, etc...
The V2 has passive PFC as well where the 530 does not...
what is the difference quick on passice or active PFC?
some is better than none i suppose...
thanks guys
 
Mase said:
are you shittin me?
Click to expand...
saturnine2 said:
I have an Aopen
Click to expand...

any that say FSP in the model number
here is the complete list
AOpen

ATX-250GT
ATX-250GT(PF)
ATX-250GTF
ATX-250GU
FSP250-60ATV
FSP250-60ATV(PF)
FSP250-60GTV.
AO300-12APN
ATX-300GT
ATX-300GT(PF)
ATX-300GTF
ATX-300GU
FSP300-60ATV
FSP300-60ATV(PF)
FSP300-60PLN
FSP300-60PN
FSP300-60PN(PF).
AO350-12APN
ATX-350GU
FSP350-60PLN
FSP350-60PN
FSP350-60PN(PF).
FSP400-60BNP
FSP400-60GN
FSP400-60PFN
FSP400-60PN (PF)
FSP530-60GN < same 530 linked above by Kain :p

from the Who's Who section of the Power Supply FAQ

FSP Group (China\Taiwan)(Fortron-Source Technology \ SPI Electronics \ Sparkle Power) Sparkle, PC Power & Cooling, Verax, Conrad, AOpen,
(look for an FSP model designation like FSP300-60ATV )

in addition to some OEM supplies, matching up actual models is a trickier business however unless they are fairly open with the model numbers like AOpen is
If I had a cartload of cash I could commission a PSU off one of thier models with various features, upgrades, downgrades, ect and then rebrand and market them

step right up and get an Ice Czar 530 Watt :p (better name than alot of em out there)

Mase said:
Dont I want the new V2 versions of say the Bluestorm?
Click to expand...
I think that would be a good idea ;)
 
Blown caps are kinda common, there was a company that tried to make caps based off another companies formula a few years back, and got it wrong. http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2...30207018535.htm
Not sure if they were also used in power supplies. My advice, never EVER use a cheap power supply.

I think that what matters most is whether the the caps were made before or after the Taiwan capacitor scandal occurred because my old cheapo Powmax from 1999 or 2000 has cheapo JEE or JGE caps that are fine (measured) while a couple of Fuhjyyu brand caps in my 2-3 year-old Antec were swollen. I noticed that my 1-2 year-old 300W Fortron/Sparkle also has Fuhjyyu caps in it. :( OTOH my Delta PSU has Japanese United Chemi-con caps.
 
This is why videocards that plug directly into the PSU always make me nervous. A crappy PSU can easily take out the videocard now. Before, all you really had to worry about was your motherboard catching on fire, and you still had a chance of your videocard surviving. The motherboard's power regulation would usually get destroyed before the components did (if you were lucky!). Motherboards are cheaper than videocards!
 
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