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Black Crush, Gamma Shifting
- Thread starter pmpysz
- Start date
I believe black crush is exactly what i am running into with my new monitor. You cant see the details in the different shades of black. Instead of seeing individual details in a shadow, for example, you see the shadow as one lump of solid black. I have been able to fix this by tweaking my color settings in the nvidia control panel, but those settings don't take in my 3D games unfortunately.
The link below is a test image. If you are experiencing black crush, the entire first row and maybe the first couple of the second row will all be the same darkness of black.
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
The link below is a test image. If you are experiencing black crush, the entire first row and maybe the first couple of the second row will all be the same darkness of black.
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
It's basically an inherent effect (or flaw if you will) of VA panel technology whereby black and dark shades near to black at the centre of the screen (when viewing the monitor dead on), will "crush" together, in other words you lose a lot of details usually in shadows. If you move your head horizontally to the size, the detail will reappear or the blacks get lighter. Also if viewing the monitor straight on, one or both sides can appear brighter.
You can see it happening here: http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5321/colorshiting.jpg (taken from this review).
ToastyX has also posted some great examples of black crush or gamma shifting on these forums, i.e. here or here. The example ToastyX uses (original here) should be completely uniform all the way across, but it's not due to the gamma shift.
You can see it in motion and more visibly in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC7EozTCGSQ. In the video you should be able to notice that you lose detail when the viewing head on, but see more or gain detail (i.e the lapel or folds in the boy's jacket, parts of his cheek and the background) when viewing from the side. This is a good video example too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnaMex2FUo The letters can only be seen if viewing the monitor at an angle, other wise they "crush" when viewed straight on.
Note that black crush can also quite commonly mean what KenG10 stated, however in that version, no matter what angle you look at the monitor, the blacks are always crushed. Black crush in context to VA panels (or the less confusing term gamma/colour shift) is something different and shows when you're viewing a VA monitor at certain angles.
You can see it happening here: http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5321/colorshiting.jpg (taken from this review).
ToastyX has also posted some great examples of black crush or gamma shifting on these forums, i.e. here or here. The example ToastyX uses (original here) should be completely uniform all the way across, but it's not due to the gamma shift.
You can see it in motion and more visibly in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC7EozTCGSQ. In the video you should be able to notice that you lose detail when the viewing head on, but see more or gain detail (i.e the lapel or folds in the boy's jacket, parts of his cheek and the background) when viewing from the side. This is a good video example too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZnaMex2FUo The letters can only be seen if viewing the monitor at an angle, other wise they "crush" when viewed straight on.
Note that black crush can also quite commonly mean what KenG10 stated, however in that version, no matter what angle you look at the monitor, the blacks are always crushed. Black crush in context to VA panels (or the less confusing term gamma/colour shift) is something different and shows when you're viewing a VA monitor at certain angles.
Last edited:
I believe black crush is exactly what i am running into with my new monitor. You cant see the details in the different shades of black. Instead of seeing individual details in a shadow, for example, you see the shadow as one lump of solid black. I have been able to fix this by tweaking my color settings in the nvidia control panel, but those settings don't take in my 3D games unfortunately.
The link below is a test image. If you are experiencing black crush, the entire first row and maybe the first couple of the second row will all be the same darkness of black.
http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/black.php
Tyvm! That was extremely helpful tool. I just viewed it on my 42+ Westinghouse and the first 7 blocks are indistinguishable.
It's basically an inherent effect (or flaw if you will) of VA panel technology whereby black and dark shades near to black at the centre if the screen (when viewing the monitor dead on), will "crush" together, in other words you lose a lot of details usually in shadows. If you move your head horizontally to the size, the detail will reappear or the blacks get lighter. Also if viewing the monitor straight on, one or both sides can appear brighter.
You can see it happening here: http://img101.imageshack.us/img101/5321/colorshiting.jpg (taken from this review).
ToastyX has also posted some great examples of black crush or gamma shifting on these forums, i.e. here or here. The example ToastyX uses (here) should be completely uniform all the way across, but it's not due to the gamma shift.
You can see it in motion and more visibly in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC7EozTCGSQ. In the video you should be able to notice that you lose detail when the viewing head on, but see more (i.e the folds in his jacket and parts of his cheek) when viewing from the side.
Note, black crush can also quite commonly mean what KenG10 stated, however no matter what angle you look at the monitor, the blacks are always crushed. Black crush in context to VA panels (or the less confusing term gamma/colour shift) is something different and only occurs when you're viewing at the VA monitor at certain angles.
That's very interesting... I don't think my monitor has noticeable shifting problem. I appreaciate the help! I'll take both these defects over the yellow tint problems I've experienced with IPS panels lately though. I've been looking at tons of monitors and tvs lately.. and it seems that the smaller the pixel, the more problems like this become apparent.
Thanks again.
You can easily test for black crush with this image: http://www.toastyx.net/va-test.png (Similar to the 2nd Youtube video I added).
It's an image with a black background and the word TEST written across it in a very dark shade of grey. Just open that image and view it so that it covers the entire width of your monitor and see if you can still read the text when viewing the monitor dead on (which you probably can't on a VA monitor) or at an angle to the side (which you should).
It's an image with a black background and the word TEST written across it in a very dark shade of grey. Just open that image and view it so that it covers the entire width of your monitor and see if you can still read the text when viewing the monitor dead on (which you probably can't on a VA monitor) or at an angle to the side (which you should).
daveswantek
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2007
- Messages
- 1,231
It is important to note that these issues vary in severity from one panel model to another. They are not all the same.
Gamma shift means that the same color will very by the angle you are looking at it. So if you put up an all violet screen. It will look like a red to violet starburst or radial graident from the center to the outside of the screen.
VA panels are known to have the slowest response time as well. Their strengths are that there is no white glow like you will find on any TN or IPS panel that does not have a ATW polarizer, and most of them do not have one.
If you are nearsighted like I am, then a good VA panel might make sense, because IPS white glow is a bigger problem when you look close to the screen. White glow is a problem on larger panels, especially the 30" dudes. Samsung makes a 30" S-PVA panel, the 305T plus, but they do not holdup over time and there have been numerious complaints about poor support.
White glow is a white haze that fades in from the outer edge of the panel, especially when viewed from an angle.
The bottom line is that all panel types have some kind draw back, with the exception of the NEC 2490WUXi and they are no longer available.
Dave
Gamma shift means that the same color will very by the angle you are looking at it. So if you put up an all violet screen. It will look like a red to violet starburst or radial graident from the center to the outside of the screen.
VA panels are known to have the slowest response time as well. Their strengths are that there is no white glow like you will find on any TN or IPS panel that does not have a ATW polarizer, and most of them do not have one.
If you are nearsighted like I am, then a good VA panel might make sense, because IPS white glow is a bigger problem when you look close to the screen. White glow is a problem on larger panels, especially the 30" dudes. Samsung makes a 30" S-PVA panel, the 305T plus, but they do not holdup over time and there have been numerious complaints about poor support.
White glow is a white haze that fades in from the outer edge of the panel, especially when viewed from an angle.
The bottom line is that all panel types have some kind draw back, with the exception of the NEC 2490WUXi and they are no longer available.
Dave
You can easily test for black crush with this image: http://www.toastyx.net/va-test.png (Similar to the 2nd Youtube video I added).
It's an image with a black background and the word TEST written across it in a very dark shade of grey. Just open that image and view it so that it covers the entire width of your monitor and see if you can still read the text when viewing the monitor dead on (which you probably can't on a VA monitor) or at an angle to the side (which you should).
I can see the text appear more vividly at an extreme side angle, otherwise it's just hard to see.
It is important to note that these issues vary in severity from one panel model to another. They are not all the same.
Gamma shift means that the same color will very by the angle you are looking at it. So if you put up an all violet screen. It will look like a red to violet starburst or radial graident from the center to the outside of the screen.
VA panels are known to have the slowest response time as well. Their strengths are that there is no white glow like you will find on any TN or IPS panel that does not have a ATW polarizer, and most of them do not have one.
If you are nearsighted like I am, then a good VA panel might make sense, because IPS white glow is a bigger problem when you look close to the screen. White glow is a problem on larger panels, especially the 30" dudes. Samsung makes a 30" S-PVA panel, the 305T plus, but they do not holdup over time and there have been numerious complaints about poor support.
White glow is a white haze that fades in from the outer edge of the panel, especially when viewed from an angle.
The bottom line is that all panel types have some kind draw back, with the exception of the NEC 2490WUXi and they are no longer available.
Dave
Yea, I took a chance on 3x U2311Hs and got duds imo... so I'm done playing the lottery. I plan on picking up a couple $500-600 Sony or Samsung LCD TVs as I'm pretty sure they're both VA panels and look great at the store (they don't appear to have any of the defects talked about in the many threads I've read). I also have a vision problem (left-eye is pretty much shot), so the bigger the screen, the better for me. My wife laughed at me and wanted to know wtf I was thinking when I got my 23"s after using a single 42" for years.
daveswantek
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Oct 30, 2007
- Messages
- 1,231
I can see the text appear more vividly at an extreme side angle, otherwise it's just hard to see.
Yea, I took a chance on 3x U2311Hs and got duds imo... so I'm done playing the lottery. I plan on picking up a couple $500-600 Sony or Samsung LCD TVs as I'm pretty sure they're both VA panels and look great at the store (they don't appear to have any of the defects talked about in the many threads I've read). I also have a vision problem (left-eye is pretty much shot), so the bigger the screen, the better for me. My wife laughed at me and wanted to know wtf I was thinking when I got my 23"s after using a single 42" for years.
Yes; Samsung and Sony both use some kind of VA panel.
I went with a single Dell 2709W and it works quite well for me. It is a 16:10 VA panel with less black crush and gamma shift then most, so it is pretty good, but they are out of production now.
I have a Samsung LN52A650 connected to a HTPC. Samsung designed one of the HDMI ports to work with a computer when that port is labeled as PC, (this can be done in the on screen menu). With this setup, text and over scan work correctly. The text is sharp and clean. They use a different panel below 40 inches, but I have seen the 32 inch version next to the 32 inch Sony and I thought the Sammy was just slightly better, (a little more contrast).
The reason I went with the Dell 2709W over a 32 inch Samsung TV was that the Dell can go to 1920:1200 when needed. It also has a good scaler in it so I can use lower resolutions as well.
Good luck with it.
Dave