Bitcoin Dips after China's Cryptocurrency Crackdown

B00nie said:
Yes, you're feeding the money laundry machine. It's estimated that 80% of the value of Bitcoin comes from criminal sources and that's why China closed it.
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China didn't close bitcoin. They closed ICOs as investment vehicles for all the various alt coins popping up regularly. Get your facts straight.
 
ruffbytes said:
Does anyone have any idea why bitcoin has gone up so much in such a short period of time? How can it double its value in a month?
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The computational effort required has outstripped computational capability creating a shortage.
 
Great lets see you put cash into a computer to buy a bitcoin.

oh my god


my sides...
 
rive22 said:
Well actually they have those. Bitcoin ATMs. lol
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Yes, but they go bye bye too if banks are forbidden from doing business with clearing houses. That's a big old DUH!
 
I can literally write a private key down on paper and sell that. No coins have to move anywhere.

Good luck trying to stop me writing numbers on a piece of paper.
 
Retronym said:
I can literally write a private key down on paper and sell that. No coins have to move anywhere.

Good luck trying to stop me writing numbers on a piece of paper.
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You can also print your own money. That is if you don't mind 20 years in Leavenworth.

Basically you would have to find underground companies that accept bitcoin keys which you write into a file and then trade that disk in for product. Not likely to happen on a large scale if the government outlaws it.

It really doesn't benefit you or anyone else if it can't be exchanged for something easily.
 
B00nie said:
Yes, you're feeding the money laundry machine. It's estimated that 80% of the value of Bitcoin comes from criminal sources and that's why China closed it.
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So by that logic, is encryption software also a crime, since one of its big uses is for people committing criminal activity to cover their tracks?
 
tetris42 said:
So by that logic, is encryption software also a crime, since one of its big uses is for people committing criminal activity to cover their tracks?
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Roads are a crime. Criminals use roads. therefore anyone that uses a road is a criminal.
 
tetris42 said:
So by that logic, is encryption software also a crime, since one of its big uses is for people committing criminal activity to cover their tracks?
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Nice strawman. The fact is encryption, roads, and even guns are used by mostly law abiding citizens. I'm not sure the same could be said of crypto currency. Nobody has evidence of what percentage of companies accept crypto currency as payments and what percentage this contributes. But I bet it's dwarfed by ransomware, extortion, and illegal goods sales.

Someone is always trying to justify why they get something for nothing.
 
tetris42 said:
So by that logic, is encryption software also a crime, since one of its big uses is for people committing criminal activity to cover their tracks?
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If you aid a criminal by converting your real money to encrypt the evidence of his crime with hopes of doubling your return, yes. In that case encryption does get illegal. And that scenario is pretty much Bitcoin.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Nice strawman. The fact is encryption, roads, and even guns are used by mostly law abiding citizens. I'm not sure the same could be said of crypto currency. Nobody has evidence of what percentage of companies accept crypto currency as payments and what percentage this contributes. But I bet it's dwarfed by ransomware, extortion, and illegal goods sales.

Someone is always trying to justify why they get something for nothing.
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It's not getting something for nothing, it's taking an enormous risk.

I bought bitcoin when I knew I had a 50/50 chance my bank account would be closed. I did it anyway.

You're stating hunches and guesses as facts.
 
B00nie said:
If you aid a criminal by converting your real money to encrypt the evidence of his crime with hopes of doubling your return, yes. In that case encryption does get illegal. And that scenario is pretty much Bitcoin.
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God help me I wish I had a clue what you're going on about. Bitcoin isn't anonymous or "encrypted" per se', it's not the "TOR of money". It's the opposite.

Having no fundamental understanding of how cryptocurrency or blockchain tech works and then ranting and raving "only criminals use it" is like the people complaining in the 90's "this new internet thing MUST be shut down because people are using it for kinderporn".

BTC and digital currency is no less than the internet of money in terms of evolution. It's here to stay. These are still just early days. Every government and financial institution in the world is in a race to find ways to bend and implement blockchain to benefit them.

What if I told you the FBI actually loves the evolution of cryptocurrency with BTC as the gold standard, because it makes movements transparent. They're easier to track since the entire ledger of transactions is public - and in BTCs case, not anonymous. The IRS same thing.

Laundering money with Bitcoin would actually be insanely inefficient and introduce unnecessary risk compared to other means, since the transactions are exposed to more scrutiny. There's a reason Silk Road got taken down, and some of the FBI agents that worked on it have admitted in interviews "the underlying tech of BTC actually made our job easier".

There's been a cottage industry of forensic tools and companies springing up whose sole purpose is to digest and analyze blockchain data as well.
 
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Retronym said:
It's not getting something for nothing, it's taking an enormous risk.

I bought bitcoin when I knew I had a 50/50 chance my bank account would be closed. I did it anyway.

You're stating hunches and guesses as facts.
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All the news articles I read state otherwise.

But the fact is you are a little bias as you have a vested stake. It's understandable why you would defend it.
 
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DigitalGriffin said:
Nice strawman. The fact is encryption, roads, and even guns are used by mostly law abiding citizens. I'm not sure the same could be said of crypto currency. Nobody has evidence of what percentage of companies accept crypto currency as payments and what percentage this contributes. But I bet it's dwarfed by ransomware, extortion, and illegal goods sales.

Someone is always trying to justify why they get something for nothing.
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I'm not trying to strawman you, to me the logic is the same, this is why I asked it as a question, to figure out where the distinction is. Fine, since you say the majority of people using encryption are law abiding, how about torrents? Is use of those making you a criminal? I think it's been proven the majority of torrenting IS used for piracy. You can argue by using the technology, it endorses the infrastructure that copyright criminals primarily use. I'm really not seeing the difference between that logic and bitcoin, just the types of crime associated with it.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
All the news articles I read state otherwise.

But the fact is you are a little bias as you have a vested stake. It's understandable why you would defend it.
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All the articles you've read have said it is not taking a risk?
You haven't come across one article about banks closing for bitcoin customers?
Really?

My bitcoin holdings are 0.0733% of my net worth. I use it as an economic hedge. I dont view that as very evil.
 
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DPI said:
God help me I wish I had a clue what you're going on about. Bitcoin isn't anonymous or "encrypted" per se', it's not the "TOR of money". It's the opposite.

Having no fundamental understanding of how cryptocurrency or blockchain tech works and then ranting and raving "only criminals use it" is like the people complaining in the 90's "this new internet thing MUST be shut down because people are using it for kinderporn".

BTC and digital currency is no less than the internet of money in terms of evolution. It's here to stay. These are still just early days. Every government and financial institution in the world is in a race to find ways to bend and implement blockchain to benefit them.

What if I told you the FBI actually loves the evolution of cryptocurrency with BTC as the gold standard, because it makes movements transparent. They're easier to track since the entire ledger of transactions is public - and in BTCs case, not anonymous. The IRS same thing.

Laundering money with Bitcoin would actually be insanely inefficient and introduce unnecessary risk compared to other means, since the transactions are exposed to more scrutiny. There's a reason Silk Road got taken down, and some of the FBI agents that worked on it have admitted in interviews "the underlying tech of BTC actually made our job easier".

There's been a cottage industry of forensic tools and companies springing up whose sole purpose is to digest and analyze blockchain data as well.
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Oh yes it's just a coincidence that all ransomware is payable in BTC only and drug money is dropped in it by the billion. Cryptocurrencies lack governmental control so criminals can move their assets without any control.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy...in-4-billion-bitcoin-money-laundering-scheme/
 
I dont understand why bitcoin is demonized and the far more effective instrument is brushed off though. Except that enough people understand it's necessity in the marketplace.
 
It could still be banned in EU courts or here. It's unlikely but not impossible. It will likely be banned in the uss cough Russia soon.

Non traceable currency is a tax nightmare
 
Retronym said:
It's not getting something for nothing, it's taking an enormous risk.

I bought bitcoin when I knew I had a 50/50 chance my bank account would be closed. I did it anyway.

You're stating hunches and guesses as facts.
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To all the comments about how bad bitcoin is, is it really worse than money in general? It's how you use it that is illegal, not the currency. Funny how the government can print all the money they want to, and everyone is ok with it, when anyone can create the money, somehow it should be outlawed.

About the bank account closure, next time have a prepaid card or other non-bank account card to buy it. How the banks think they get to choose what you do with your money is ridiculous.

While you are at it, go look into the banking changes they have made recently. First, the bank is now a able to deny your requests for money, as they view you as a creditor. So if you want your money, better go get in line with the other creditors, and prepare to file a suit to get your money. Second, in the case of a massive problem like 2008's near banking collapse, now they can bail-in with your money. That's right, they decided they can seize your account at any time to pay their bills. Good luck everyone.
 
triwolf said:
To all the comments about how bad bitcoin is, is it really worse than money in general? It's how you use it that is illegal, not the currency. Funny how the government can print all the money they want to, and everyone is ok with it, when anyone can create the money, somehow it should be outlawed.

About the bank account closure, next time have a prepaid card or other non-bank account card to buy it. How the banks think they get to choose what you do with your money is ridiculous.

While you are at it, go look into the banking changes they have made recently. First, the bank is now a able to deny your requests for money, as they view you as a creditor. So if you want your money, better go get in line with the other creditors, and prepare to file a suit to get your money. Second, in the case of a massive problem like 2008's near banking collapse, now they can bail-in with your money. That's right, they decided they can seize your account at any time to pay their bills. Good luck everyone.
Click to expand...

By the way, one of the massive wins for bitcoin was where in Greece they had limited the bank withdrawals, and people flocked to bitcoin because the government couldn't steal, I mean restrict them from their money. It was a real world proof that bitcoin is a better currency, and the price skyrocketed. Because people were starving due to not being able to get to their money. Are any of you awake? Better get to know reality, there is an awful lot of lies out there.
 
triwolf said:
To all the comments about how bad bitcoin is, is it really worse than money in general? It's how you use it that is illegal, not the currency. Funny how the government can print all the money they want to, and everyone is ok with it, when anyone can create the money, somehow it should be outlawed.
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There's a couple flaws in your statement here. You are assuming that CASH transactions are on the same level of corruption of bitcoin. And that CASH transactions as easily as handled over long distances. Both are false. And government just can't print money willy nilly. Or you have a situation similar to the German Deutschmark at the end of WWI, WWII, and Venezula's bolivar. You have rampant inflation that is near impossible to reign in.

About the bank account closure, next time have a prepaid card or other non-bank account card to buy it. How the banks think they get to choose what you do with your money is ridiculous.
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Prepaid cards still pass through some sort of bank and therefore are applicable to the same rules.

That's right, they decided they can seize your account at any time to pay their bills. Good luck everyone.
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Your understanding of the financial system is flawed. To prevent money runs which lead to collapse, new legislation was created to limit withdraws during a crisis. You remember that scene from "It's a wonderful life" where Ned Baily during a crisis has to use his honeymoon money to keep the bank afloat because everyone panics and tries to withdraw their funds? Well it's kind of like that. They could ALWAYS dig into your account to invest and pay bills (up to a % of their assets). But they don't get to keep it. If they fail to pay you, FDIC and NCUA covers any collapse of a bank.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
There's a couple flaws in your statement here. You are assuming that CASH transactions are on the same level of corruption of bitcoin. And that CASH transactions as easily as handled over long distances. Both are false. And government just can't print money willy nilly. Or you have a situation similar to the German Deutschmark at the end of WWI, WWII, and Venezula's bolivar. You have rampant inflation that is near impossible to reign in.


Prepaid cards still pass through some sort of bank and therefore are applicable to the same rules.



Your understanding of the financial system is flawed. To prevent money runs which lead to collapse, new legislation was created to limit withdraws during a crisis. They could ALWAYS dig into your account to invest and pay bills (up to a % of their assets). But they don't get to keep it. If they fail to pay you, FDIC and NCUA covers any collapse of a bank.
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So, you are saying that they can cut off my prepaid card after it is used? SO WHAT

I also know that the Federal Government went around and seized gold in the 1930s. They never paid it back. Say what you want, people are known to promise all kinds of things, whether they will do it or not is another case. It's ridiculous what the banks get away with, they seize peoples homes, get to sell it, keep whatever was paid towards the principal, then claim insurance too while a person is left with nothing!
 
triwolf said:
So, you are saying that they can cut off my prepaid card after it is used? SO WHAT

I also know that the Federal Government went around and seized gold in the 1930s. They never paid it back. Say what you want, people are known to promise all kinds of things, whether they will do it or not is another case. It's ridiculous what the banks get away with, they seize peoples homes, get to sell it, keep whatever was paid towards the principal, then claim insurance too while a person is left with nothing!
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No. They can deny the transaction all together. DUH!
 
triwolf said:
By the way, one of the massive wins for bitcoin was where in Greece they had limited the bank withdrawals, and people flocked to bitcoin because the government couldn't steal, I mean restrict them from their money. It was a real world proof that bitcoin is a better currency, and the price skyrocketed. Because people were starving due to not being able to get to their money. Are any of you awake? Better get to know reality, there is an awful lot of lies out there.
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People also tend to forget about places like Venezuela. Families have had their life savings wiped away to massive inflation multiple times. Which is only slightly better than having to eat stray dog. Try telling them using bitcoin makes them evil.
 
Retronym said:
People also tend to forget about places like Venezuela. Families have had their life savings wiped away to massive inflation multiple times. Which is only slightly better than having to eat stray dog. Try telling them using bitcoin makes them evil.
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The vast majority of them are exchanging their notes for Columbian currency as a hedge against inflation.

Either way, Venezeula is F'd. It won't be long till it erupts into something ugly I bet.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
There's a couple flaws in your statement here. You are assuming that CASH transactions are on the same level of corruption of bitcoin. And that CASH transactions as easily as handled over long distances. Both are false. And government just can't print money willy nilly. Or you have a situation similar to the German Deutschmark at the end of WWI, WWII, and Venezula's bolivar. You have rampant inflation that is near impossible to reign in.


Prepaid cards still pass through some sort of bank and therefore are applicable to the same rules.



Your understanding of the financial system is flawed. To prevent money runs which lead to collapse, new legislation was created to limit withdraws during a crisis. You remember that scene from "It's a wonderful life" where Ned Baily during a crisis has to use his honeymoon money to keep the bank afloat because everyone panics and tries to withdraw their funds? Well it's kind of like that. They could ALWAYS dig into your account to invest and pay bills (up to a % of their assets). But they don't get to keep it. If they fail to pay you, FDIC and NCUA covers any collapse of a bank.
Click to expand...

DigitalGriffin said:
No. They can deny the transaction all together. DUH!
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LOL, how do they deny it when it has already taken place?

Also, go look up a case from the 1800's where it was disclosed that banks can print anytime they want! They just make a ledger entry, then its done. You can state all the gobbledygook you want, banks do print all they want, and they have all kinds of economic drivel like you quote that makes it "okay".
 
DigitalGriffin said:
The vast majority of them are exchanging their notes for Columbian currency as a hedge against inflation.
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Of course. If you get caught with bitcoin in Venezuela it's life in prison. But it's still there.

I've even taught a few of them how to do it personally.
 
triwolf said:
LOL, how do they deny it when it has already taken place?

Also, go look up a case from the 1800's where it was disclosed that banks can print anytime they want! They just make a ledger entry, then its done. You can state all the gobbledygook you want, banks do print all they want, and they have all kinds of economic drivel like you quote that makes it "okay".
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you know, Kyle says I have to play nice, but man some days...

Look it's simple. You put the numbers in for the CC and they then go to the central holding bank which says, "Yes/No. I do/don't approve this transaction" The bank can realize it's a clearing house and say "No" In fact if you read the disclaimers on the back of these cards, they have a list of sites they will NOT do business with. For example, if you try to purchase alcohol with a prepaid card, you will be DENIED. Why? Because you might be some 18 year old snot nosed kid trying to circumvent the system.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
you know, Kyle says I have to play nice, but man some days...

Look it's simple. You put the numbers in for the CC and they then go to the central holding bank which says, "Yes/No. I do/don't approve this transaction" The bank can realize it's a clearing house and say "No" In fact if you read the disclaimers on the back of these cards, they have a list of sites they will NOT do business with. For example, if you try to purchase alcohol with a prepaid card, you will be DENIED.
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What a terrible fungibility that is.

I buy whatever I feel like, from whomever I feel like, whenever I feel like. I don't ask permission. To me, that's the American spirit. Hell, it's patriotic! /s
 
DigitalGriffin said:
you know, Kyle says I have to play nice, but man some days...

Look it's simple. You put the numbers in for the CC and they then go to the central holding bank which says, "Yes/No. I do/don't approve this transaction" The bank can realize it's a clearing house and say "No" In fact if you read the disclaimers on the back of these cards, they have a list of sites they will NOT do business with.
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Ok, they can try. Cat and mouse game. I sure see a lot of people buying selling bitcoin, so good luck stopping it. They can't outlaw barter, gold, etc. Personally, I would never attempt using a bank to buy it. The banks are invested in Ripple, and other blockchain tech, but they deny bitcoin purchase. Go look in the dictionary under hypocrite.
 
Retronym said:
What a terrible fungibility that is.

I buy whatever I feel like, from whomever I feel like, whenever I feel like. I don't ask permission. To me, that's the American spirit.
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And that is the exact reason I predict government will eventually step in. Uncontrolled money with easy access to goods (the net) is a nightmare for governments on multiple levels from illicit goods (silk road), crime (ransomeware), and tax evasion.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
And that is the exact reason I predict government will eventually step in. Uncontrolled money with easy access to goods (the net) is a nightmare for governments on multiple levels from illicit goods (silk road), crime (ransomeware), and tax evasion.
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I don't doubt a government will step in, I just doubt it will actually lead to a binary outcome they want. Even when that government is Venezuela, and they just kill the prisoners, bitcoin still has a presence there.
I think the more likely scenario that will play out is a sort of arms race between different governments for mining presence. China is already heavily involved, and there are indications Russia intends to enter the mining scene. Both countries routinely float rumors about making bitcoin illegal, but their actions indicate the exact opposite.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
And that is the exact reason I predict government will eventually step in. Uncontrolled money with easy access to goods (the net) is a nightmare for governments on multiple levels from illicit goods (silk road), crime (ransomeware), and tax evasion.
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Unfortunately, you are probably right. Enjoy it while you can. If all transactions can be traced, it's sure looking like a beast system to me. Bitcoin and cash would be a nice way for it to go, but I suspect as you do, it's too free and that is not where the world is headed. It's headed to where your every move is tracked. It will not be a good place for people that remember freedom. It seem the younger generation is fine with giving their freedom for security. Or what they view as security. One problem, what can you do when most everything is regulated or outlawed? Not much.
 
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