Big Networking Question!

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shinji23

Limp Gawd
Joined
Feb 12, 2002
Messages
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I have question regarding office networking. We have about 50 wall socket and using 24 port D-link swithc with 2 24 port hubs. We are using DSL and constantly losses the connection. So my boss asked me whether we can resolve this problme by using different network equipment. Since I am not a network smart, I thought I could as you all network gurus for help.

I checked the network equipment, and it has like I said one DSL modem connected to router, then rest is clueless. All I know is that we are currently using hubs and one switch, and other two network eqiupment which to me looks like connecting wall soceket to network equipment.

We also have one giant printer which uses lan connection.

Now to the question. What kind of networking equipment do we need to buy? I did little research and looks like managed switch is the simplest and best solution, but my boss is... CHEAP ARSE!

Please feel free to add some comments and suggestions.

THank YOu.
 
that kind of router are u running?

We had this problem at a lan.. anymore then like 4 ppl hitting the router caused the inet to die. The poor little linksys they had just couldn't take it. I built them a smoothwall router and its been 100% flawless ever since.
 
Um, I'd ditch the hubs, replace them with switches. How come you're on a 24 port switch and (2) 24 port hubs with 50 users? that's 72 ports....do you have servers, etc.? You may want to get a slightly more robust gateway too.

I would do something like this as a quick solution:

DSL Connection --> WAN port Cisco SOHO router (Expensive, but all office caliber ones will be and I wouldn't use a $60 nat box in a business with more than 15 end users) or a Smoothwall/Clarkconnect box --> 48 port switch --> uplink or chained to another 48 or even 24 port switch --> rj-45 straight throughs from switch ports to patch panel ports (at least 2 48-port / 1 24-port, although I'd do 3 48-port) which are to be labeled --> terminate end on back of patch panel --> run 2 cable drops to the jack plates, either replace the wall jack ends with leviton or keystone jacks if they can't be terminated to the jack, or even female to female couplers, which is easier to install but leave slack in case it needs to be re-crimped then label them with the same number of the patch port--> patch cord to workstation.

If it's a bit too technical, let me know, I'll see if I can water it down, or maybe someone else can propose something easier. I'll see if I can design something in visio for this.
Also if it sounds like a bit too much to tackle, try to see if there is a friend of a friend who does this sort of thing. If your boss is cheap, a pro will cost too much, and if he doesn't loosen the purse strings a bit, you're not going to be able to solve this problem.
 
Wow thank you. I am network newbie and these are confusing but at least we know for sure that our equpiment is not adequte to handle our need. We are using linksys router (cheap 30 dollar one).

So let me get this right. First DSL modem to router. then router to the 48 port switch, then uplink it to another switch, then to where? I saw two black box with lots of ports. to me they looked like the connector for the wall sockets)....

btw big thanks!
 
I would so point the finger at that linksys being the reason for the drops.

is there anyway u can get pics of the current setup? it would be easier to take the pic and lable what u got and then show u then to try and explain it
 
I would agree that the Linksys box needs to go.

Get you a good firewall/NAT box at your gateway. Cisco PIX 501 (with the unlimited user license) or the 506E comes to mind. A Netscreen box, FortiGate, or Snapgear will suffice too. I tend to shy away from using a linux distro in a business environment, but if you're comfortable with it and get a box to put it on relatively cheap then go for it, make sure you can get paid support if you dont know what you're doing.

You also need to ditch the hubs. Get you either a single 48-port switch, such as a Dell PowerConnect switch, or two more 24 ports to combine with your existing 24 port switch.

The linksys is probably the reason you're loosing your internet connection. However, the hubs are probably creating a lot of congestion on your network that shouldn't be there.
 
Their is one small business I know of around here that I know of. They used a linksys router for net access, and about once or twice a week they would have to power cycle it.
 
1.jpg


This is what we have in the office, and I have no clue what this is.

2.jpg


As you can see, we have two linksys router, three hubs (one4 port and 2*24 port), one switch (kinda hard to see), and two black box (patch pannel).

BTW, Thank you guys really. You guys are saving my arse from my work.
 
Here's what I would do:

Cisco Router (2600s would do good)
Cisco 501 PIX firewall (unlimited user license as Boscoh says)
Cisco 3524 and Cisco 3548 Catalyst Switches connected together via Gigastack GBICs for a total of 72 ports

Then segment into VLANs if needed...


Can you take a picture of the wallmount rack itself?
 
Joony said:
Here's what I would do:

Cisco Router (2600s would do good)
Cisco 501 PIX firewall (unlimited user license as Boscoh says)
Cisco 3524 and Cisco 3548 Catalyst Switches connected together via Gigastack GBICs for a total of 72 ports

Then segment into VLANs if needed...


Can you take a picture of the wallmount rack itself?
Click to expand...

I would suggest a similar config if money wasn't an issue with his employer as it would be the most efficient solution, but cisco is not cheap. I'd say a 1760 (96/64) would be sufficient with a WIC1-ENET for the broadband connection and another WIC1-ENET for the PIX-501, although a smoothwall would probably do the trick and be less costly. Setup the FA0 as a trunk link with subinterfaces. The 3500 series would probably be overkill for this environment, especially with VLANS. There are only 50 end users, so maybe 2 used 2950-48-XL with one GBIC connect, and an additional 2924-XL. Run to patch panels and drop to the jack with keystones or levitons, or even a coupler and then patches to the workstations.

Now take into consideration that this individual requesting help is not a network tech or engineer, just someone who has been given the daunting task of fixing an infrastructure issue, so a crash course in CCNA is not going to be applicable here. Keep it simple but efficient as possible for a low cost is the goal.
 
Wow I checked the equipment you guys mentioned and I know for sure my boss will not spend that much money on network equipment. Earlier today, I mentioned him about Netgear Managed switch and he wasn't all that excited :rolleyes: Is there any other alternate soluiton such as Netgear or D-Link for network equpiment? Come to think of it, I saw one D-link switch... not sure this can be used again...

Anyway, from reading you guys replies, I get the general idea that

1. I need good router
2. router then to the firewall
3. firewall to the switch
4. switch to patch pannel.

Is this correct?
 
i would personally recommend monowall over smoothwall or clarkconnect...

why are there two linksys routers there? :confused:

that could be a big big problemo
 
get the new 128 port linksys... make sure to get the one with the security flaw in it or else it wont work right :D :D
 
FLECOM said:
i would personally recommend monowall over smoothwall or clarkconnect...

why are there two linksys routers there? :confused:

that could be a big big problemo
Click to expand...


How is m0n0wall in comparison to the two better in your opinion? I haven't tried it yet, but I have heard good things about it. Is it easier to configure than the other two?
 
Those cheapie home routers have a limit to the amount of addresses they can deliver...and I'm fairly certain there is no WAY 50 will be supported. I think one of the smoothwall solutions are probably your best bet, Cisco equipment would be expensive and difficult for you to get a grasp of setting it up.
 
You are losing your DSL connection?
Have had your ISP out to test the lines & circuit?

Do you have remote or branch offices?
No need for a router in addition to your Firewall if you only have one LAN with no Frame Links or Point to Point links.

I would go with a new (warranty) firewall dedicated appliance:
Like a Cisco PIX, Watchguard, or Sonicwall etc $400 to $800

I would go with new (warranty) fast ethernet switches: two 24s or one 48.
Cisco 29xx or 3Com Baseline/SuperStack switches if you can't afford the Cisco
you are looking at about $800 to $2500 for a total of 48 ports, depending on managed or unmanged etc...

DSL Modem ---> Firewall -----> Switches -----> Patch Panel ----> Nodes

Total Cost would be $1200 to $3500
Cisco switches will drive up the cost..
 
shinji23 said:
I

Now to the question. What kind of networking equipment do we need to buy? I did little research and looks like managed switch is the simplest and best solution, but my boss is... CHEAP ARSE!

Please feel free to add some comments and suggestions.

.
Click to expand...

Not for nothing, but while the general consensus is driving home some very good options for this network, some of us have seemed to forget that the employer is probably not going to pay for anything Cisco. I would probably substitute Dell PowerConnects for the Cisco suggestions to lessen the cost, but remember, we're dealing with a small office here and while Cisco would be ideally efficient, it's not entirely necessary. It doesn't really help for us to offer advice for hardware that will most likely be too expensive to implement and offer other low-or-no cost alternatives that will rectify this infrastructure issue.

Just my $0.02.
 
Agreed.

Cisco is often times overkill for a small business. While I cant speak for the non-managed Dell switches (which are probably rebranded Dlink, SMC, or 3com), I can say that the 3xxx and 5xxx series switches are damn good managed switches for the money.

I would go with a Cisco PIX 501 and a few 24 port unmanaged switches, whether they be Dell or Dlink. It will keep your costs down, but your boss is going to have to understand that nothing in life is free...and unless he wants another clusterfuck on his hands he is going to have to pay a little money to get the right stuff.

Stay away from Sonicwall, their support is pretty much worthless. Cisco's Technical Assistance Center (TAC) is pretty much the standard by which others are judged. If you get a distro like Smoothwall, you'd be well advised to get someone who can support it for you, or pay for support if it is offered. In small businesses without expertise on-staff, support becomes equally, if not more, important as the product which is chosen for deployment.
 
Dissing Sonicwall? Bad boy. We sell them to alot our customers because CISCO's equipment cost is just insane and most of our clients are smaller businesses that dont' like spending thousands of $ on equipment either. SonicWall has also been great for support, at least for our business.

1. DITCH THE LINKSYS ROUTER. That is very likely your big problem. It is simply not built to handle that many incoming and out going request on that large of a network. This is were a CISCO router would definently be the ticket. Unfortuantly I am a CISCO noob so I can't give a recommendation, however....

2. Ditch the hubs. Completely. 3Com makes great switches for good price and alot our clients use them and they are rock solid. You can also get unmanaged switches to save money also.

If your boss is that cheap, then honestly I have no sympathy if his networking continues to crash. As a business man, he should realize to MAKE money, you have to INVEST into a business and that means SPENDING money that will down the road MAKE you money. How can you expect to run a stable business when you gotta shitty ass network thats built upon saving money and cutting corners on cheap ass equipment thats simply not desighned for the job?

And who the fuck did that piss ass wiring job in the wire closet? Thats simply unacceptable. How the hell would you go about replacing a bad cable or switching a port on that patch panel??? :eek:

f your boss continues to gripe about the cost, You might wanna think about getting outa their before an entire infastructure crash kills that business. i've seen it before, not a pretty sight :(
 
why are people recommending cisco hardware to someone who said theyre new to networking? all cisco config's on router's switches, and i believe pix's are done from the cli, and is not something easy to learn.
 
I would suggest highering somebody to do it then. If nothing else, a Sonicwall router will do a HELLUVA lot better job then that Linksys. My God thats just sad
 
ne0-reloaded said:
why are people recommending cisco hardware to someone who said theyre new to networking? all cisco config's on router's switches, and i believe pix's are done from the cli, and is not something easy to learn.
Click to expand...

PIX has a gui builtin. It isnt the best thing in the world, but he can call TAC and they will sit on the phone with him for 12 hours and walk him through setting it up for exactly his specific requirements if that's what needs to happen.

If he's a complete newbie to the field, it doesnt matter what he goes with...the terminology and technologies are going to screw his head anyways. Better that he has a good support net to fall back on, and one that will be a phone call away at 3am if something happens (and wont charge him by the hour).

IceWind said:
Dissing Sonicwall?
Click to expand...
Yep, I sure did.
 
Okay, so I convinced my boss to buy 2 8 3com super stack 3 managed switch. Dell is having some special on 48 port managed switch, and we might buy dell over 3com, but for now 3com is our choice.

Now my question is router and firewall.

First, you guys mentioned that unelss we have remote location, we don't have to use the router correct? If network administrator is trying to work on our system from out side of our office, do we still need router? If we need router, how is 3com Office Connect router?

Secondly, on firewall if it says 10 license, is this mean only up to10 computer are being proteced by firewall or 10 network setups?

big thank again and again guys.
 
No, you need the router is providing the IP's to all the computers as well as NAT, DHCP among other things. It also provides DSL PPPoE authorization if your DSL modem is setup in bridge mode but that depends on who's providing your DSL service. It may not and the router is simply set up to take one of the IP's either private or live from its LAN interface to the routers WAN interface.

If you want to remotely access your networking, their are a variety of different ways to do this, but you DO need the router in order to accomplish this.

In sense, almost EVERY network that desires to have access to the internet NEEDS a router of some sort.

I dunno who made your firewall but typicaly when it says 10 licences then yes, only 10 computers should have licenced copies of the firewall. It sounds like a software firewall in which case you DEFINENTLY should be running a hardware based firewall on that large of a network.
 
DVAmon said:
How is m0n0wall in comparison to the two better in your opinion? I haven't tried it yet, but I have heard good things about it. Is it easier to configure than the other two?
Click to expand...

m0n0wall is worlds ahead of freesco, and i really dont like smoothwall at all becuase the developers are the rudest people ever... i had a valid question i asked in their IRC channel then they posted their stupid read the manual thing, after explaining i had and it wasnt covered the kick/banned me from their channel? wtf? bunch of 12 yr olds or something :rolleyes:

everyone who said a PIX... wtf are you thinking? why? the linksys really would probably work fine, im sure there are bigger problems in that mess..

like WHY ARE THERE TWO ROTUERS?

i am willing to bet money they are both setup with DHCP and other fun stuff
 
shinji23 said:
Okay, so I convinced my boss to buy 2 8 3com super stack 3 managed switch. Dell is having some special on 48 port managed switch, and we might buy dell over 3com, but for now 3com is our choice.

Now my question is router and firewall.

First, you guys mentioned that unelss we have remote location, we don't have to use the router correct? If network administrator is trying to work on our system from out side of our office, do we still need router? If we need router, how is 3com Office Connect router?

Secondly, on firewall if it says 10 license, is this mean only up to10 computer are being proteced by firewall or 10 network setups?

big thank again and again guys.
Click to expand...

The use of a permiter router in addition to your firewall would only be needed if you have something called a DMZ and/or "on the network" Remote Physical Locations. The DMZ is where your email servers or web servers would reside if you have them. Or if you have remote locations or branch offices; actual physical locations that are "on" the network. For example the office across town sees the same resources like printers and directories that are at your location, and would even share your internet connection. This could be through ISDN, Frame Relay, or Frac T1 connections... If the above doesn't seem to apply? then adding an additional router to your network doesn't make sense, unless you are planning for future growth?

Not knowking which firewall you are looking at I will guess that the 10 user license is referring to the number of VPN licenses. That means 10 outside users; teleworkers or remote users can connect to the Firewall and then gain access to your internal network. Client configuration would have to occur on those outside computers. The Boss, You, or whoever is allowed, could connect from home etc...

If your Linksys is doing DHCP duties, then I would transfer thar service to one of your servers (easy task). Besides, DHCP running on a windows server allows you many more options and settings that can be passed to your clients.

A $400 - $600 Firewall Appliance (PIX, Watchguard, NetScreen, Sonic etc) is the only way to go. They are all designed to handle exactly what you have described with a professional level of security and quality of service. 50 users banging away on the web & email(?) is too much for an $80 dollar Linksys

cdw.com might be a good place to get an idea of producst and pricing ballbarks?

all .02 & imvho :)
 
That router looks OK. I've never used one but it should be better than a linksys etc.

First of all, I think you should try to figure out what's going on with the dsl connection. Your boss will be pissed if you spend all this money and it the connection still drops. What if the problem is the dsl modem? It's definately a possibility.

Also, I would just put in a firewall, not a firewall and router. I just put in a m0n0wall firewall that I loaded on a 4801 from Soekris on a dsl connection and it works great. The hardware cost is about $260 or so for everything and has a real dmz which is something you can't get on the sonicwall, netgear etc for anywhere near that price. I also am not a fan of installing *nix on a pc for a firewall. That's the reason I went with the soekris as it's a embedded pc and has proven to be realiable.

Also, consider hiring a professional. This is a major upgrade and it may be worth your while to have a pro do it.
 
Will this firewall allow a remote connect?

Regarding professional, we have contract with networking company. Problem is they are clueless about what they are doing. As you saw on the picture, that was the best solution they came up with. but make things even worse, our company owner signed a contract with them just because they were so impressed by the remote network administration! For now, our plan is replacing equipment and ask our owner to break the contract. This way, we can actually go out and bring network experts to build good system.

Anyway, happpy 4th of july! and big thank again and again for your input!
 
I think its worth going Cisco for your router, it will give you a very stable connection, easy to set up (well the basic functions), Also the soho and the 800 series dont cost that much.

As for Switches go Cisco, the 2950EL 48 EL has 48 10/100 ports plus two 1000 ports. Or you can go with netgear, they have a really cheap 48 port (+ 2 gig ports) switch, Can always give that a shot if you company is cheap.

As for setting them up, getting them to just work is quite simple. You could do it urself or give some Cisco student a bit of cash to set them up.
 
i like many others am confused about the two routers i would say your prob is that they are both assigning DHCP possibly in different, i would suggest before spending a dime is try and figure out better what you have, try using one router and hooking it into the two hubs or the switchfrom what i am understanding you have 50 accesible ports, but how many do you need linked at the moment?? how many users are being serviced and is this network being used for anything but internet sharing?? if so are there any servers and the specs on those would be helpful, you may be able to make do with what you have expicially if money is tight...
 
I wouldn't spend the money on Cisco for this few of users

Use Smoothwall. You're boss will be happy, much much cheaper.

Don't buy stuff you don't need.
 
Ok, here's the deal.

Why don't you tell your employer that the current solution is no longer adequate based on the advice received here. Then ask them what a fair allotment of funds will be to upgrade the infrastructure, and then price components on that budget. Then once you have a number to work with, we can all contribute efficient equipment to implement. Right now, we have so many possible solutions floating around this thread, it might be hard to actually make a decision. Remember that the cheapest solution is not the best, nor will the most expensive be the best for your needs.
 
My problem is to why the Linksys router is dying. I've seen a company with close to this many computers use a router like that and it work fine.
 
I say you put together a m0n0wall firewall using a old pc and 2 network cards. You won't even need a hard drive. Then, just test it out for a while to see what happens. If there's no timeouts, problem solved. If you still have timeouts, then you can move on to the next possibility.

If you boss mainly wants you to solve the timeout problem, he might be impressed that you fixed it for so cheap. However, if you want to use this opportunity to get him to pay for some new networking equipment, I guess I couldn't blame you.
 
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