BIG 4K - LG vs Samsung vs Wasabi Mango

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S0L0

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LG 49UF6800 -------$1300 Local
IPS
HDMI 2.0
1 year warranty (possibly buy extended)
50ms response time?


Samsung UN48JU6700 or 6800 -------- $1500 Local
Curved
HDMI 2.0
1 year warranty (possibly buy extended)
28ms response time


Wasabi Mango UHD490 --------$1200 Korea (risk of damage)
HDMI 2.0
DisplayPort
FreeSync (unconfirmed working)
1 year warranty
5ms response time


I will be using this as a monitor from a few feet away with Windows 10. Which is best and why? All monitors support 60Hz 4:4:4 UHD.
 
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I'd forget the LG and instead add Sony XBR49X830C and Crossover 494k to the list.
Samsung is VA and the others are IPS, that's the main difference.
 
I agree with igluk you should be considering the Sony X830C TVs. It also supports 1080p 120Hz if you're into that, plus it's PWM free. I plan to pick one up myself towards the end of the year as I'm in no rush.
 
Both LG and Samsung use LED PWM Dimming which ruins motion clarity (example), manifests itself in the form of flicker (visibility varies) and also makes some people suffer from health issues like headaches and/or eyestrain. The Samsungs use VA panels which have darker blacks, but less vibrant and even colours due to gamma shift. The Samsung's are glossy though (gloss looks clearer and more vibrant in bright rooms) and are fine for non-PC use since their motion compensation features (not available when the PC modes 4:4:4 is enabled) are available.

Crossover, Sony and Wasabi Mango do not use PWM, both the Crossover and Wasabi Mango support Free-Sync (compatible AMD gpu required), but the Sony XBR49X830C has considerably better colour presets and supports 120z @1080p.
 
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NCX said:
Both LG and Samsung use LED PWM Dimming which ruins motion clarity (example), manifests itself in the form of flicker (visibility varies) and also makes some people suffer from health issues like headaches and/or eyestrain.
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There is cure for that if you use these PWM screens with 100% brightness then they are flicker free and you can later change your brightness with nVidia control panel.
 
aadik said:
There is cure for that if you use these PWM screens with 100% brightness then they are flicker free and you can later change your brightness with nVidia control panel.
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There is no cure since graphics cards Brightness raises and lowers the monitors gamma to change the brightness resulting in banding, black crush (lowering the brightness) or washed out colours (raising the brightness).
 
igluk said:
I'd forget the LG and instead add Sony XBR49X830C and Crossover 494k to the list.
Samsung is VA and the others are IPS, that's the main difference.
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The Sony looks great except that if you check the manual it says "HDMI PC Input Format" only supports up to "3840x2160@30Hz".

https://docs.sony.com/release/specs/XBR43X830C_mksp.pdf

By the way, I think the LG has a similar problem with PC mode, it says horizontal refresh rate is 67.5hz and 30hz for vertical.

I suppose you could use the HDMI 2.0, but its not intended for PC?

Also, I did consider the Crossover 494k but since they are using Realtek Chipset Boards which only support HDCP1.4 it is required to replace this with an MStar which supports HDCP2.2 without any issues.

The Wasabi Mango already uses the Mstar board, however no one has tested and confirmed FreeSync yet.

Another thing about the korean monitors is that both have reports of flickering, and apparantly there is a washed out faded look?

Here is the review thread on the Wasabi:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1569380/wasabi-mango-uhd490-4k-60hz-49-ah-ips-5-freesync-hdmi-2-0-dp-v1-2-hdcp-2-2-no-pwm-4-4-4-10-bit
 
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Just found the Samsung UN48JS9000 which has 10bit HDR color and uses "Nano Crystal technology" AKA "Quantum Dot" instead of IPS.
 
S0L0 said:
The Sony looks great except that if you check the manual it says "HDMI PC Input Format" only supports up to "3840x2160@30Hz".
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http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/sony/x850c

S0L0 said:
Just found the Samsung UN48JS9000 which has 10bit HDR color and uses "Nano Crystal technology" AKA "Quantum Dot" instead of IPS.
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Samsung uses PWM and only work related programs can take advantage of 10 bit colour which is essentially a marketing gimmick since VA suffer from gamma shift. I think the wide gamut Samsung displays PC mode (supports 4:4:4) locks the colour space setting and leaves one with the useless over-saturated and inaccurate wide gamut colours which can only be toned down by programs which support colour management (no games or movie playback software) like Photoshop. Wide gamut TV's are gimmicks since consumer media can't take advantage of the wider colour space yet, though I'm assuming you respect the time and effort people put into making their content look a certain way and don't want everything to look like Candyland.
 
NCX said:
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/sony/x850c



Samsung uses PWM and only work related programs can take advantage of 10 bit colour which is essentially a marketing gimmick since VA suffer from gamma shift. I think the wide gamut Samsung displays PC mode (supports 4:4:4) locks the colour space setting and leaves one with the useless over-saturated and inaccurate wide gamut colours which can only be toned down by programs which support colour management (no games or movie playback software) like Photoshop. Wide gamut TV's are gimmicks since consumer media can't take advantage of the wider colour space yet, though I'm assuming you respect the time and effort people put into making their content look a certain way and don't want everything to look like Candyland.
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There's a 292 page thread on here with a BUNCH of Sammy 9000 owners who would beg to differ on your "Candyland" comment. My 48"JS9000 kills it in PC mode 444 Chroma, albeit I think Dynamic mode with AMP on looks amazing. Yes, I am a sucker for "Oversaturation" ! :D
 
NCX said:
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/sony/x850c



Samsung uses PWM and only work related programs can take advantage of 10 bit colour which is essentially a marketing gimmick since VA suffer from gamma shift. I think the wide gamut Samsung displays PC mode (supports 4:4:4) locks the colour space setting and leaves one with the useless over-saturated and inaccurate wide gamut colours which can only be toned down by programs which support colour management (no games or movie playback software) like Photoshop. Wide gamut TV's are gimmicks since consumer media can't take advantage of the wider colour space yet, though I'm assuming you respect the time and effort people put into making their content look a certain way and don't want everything to look like Candyland.
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LOL Candyland, yes I agree HDR definitely gets overdone alot. Though if its done well it looks good.

And yes I read that same review already, it seems they must have not set the tv to PC mode or else they would not get 60hz according to the manual. But than whats the point of PC mode?
 
IMO if you are going big 4K get a 65 incher and sit as far away as you can. I've tried the WM and the Crossover 434K and the uniformity on these displays is as bad as the cheapest big screen TVs I've seen and the dark lines and spots all over the screen is very distracting when sitting close and reading a solid color website, especially lighter colors like light blue or white/grey. I'd honestly rather pay $1k+ for a decent 32" 4K display than deal with the distracting uniformity issues on these $600-700 40-inchers. It's "ok" if you only play games on them, but productivity it's like trying to work on a dirty sheet of paper.
 
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dragonageinquisition said:
IMO if you are going big 4K get a 65 incher and sit as far away as you can. I've tried the WM and the Crossover 434K and the uniformity on these displays is as bad as the cheapest big screen TVs I've seen and the dark lines and spots all over the screen is very distracting when sitting close and reading a solid color website, especially lighter colors like light blue or white/grey. I'd honestly rather pay $1k+ for a decent 32" 4K display than deal with the distracting uniformity issues on these $600-700 40-inchers. It's "ok" if you only play games on them, but productivity it's like trying to work on a dirty sheet of paper.
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If this was for living room I would certainly go larger but as I said this is for desktop use in which I am trying to simulate 4 24" 1080p monitors and 48" 4K does this perfectly, however most of the available displays seem to have issues. So far the Sony seems like the best except for the manual stating that PC mode only has 30hz.
 
If leaving 100% brightness on pwm issue will be eliminated correct? Any examples of the banding? When does it happen?
 
S0L0 said:
If this was for living room I would certainly go larger but as I said this is for desktop use in which I am trying to simulate 4 24" 1080p monitors and 48" 4K does this perfectly, however most of the available displays seem to have issues. So far the Sony seems like the best except for the manual stating that PC mode only has 30hz.
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This might be true prior to the recent firmware update that happened last week allowing the Sonys to output 60Hz 4:4:4. I'm guessing they just didn't update the manuals yet.
 
MistaSparkul said:
This might be true prior to the recent firmware update that happened last week allowing the Sonys to output 60Hz 4:4:4. I'm guessing they just didn't update the manuals yet.
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rtings just confirmed this by updating the review :):


Update: With the new firmware update PKG2.463.0010NAB, This TV now supports 4k @ 60Hz @ 4:4:4. To enable this, go to Settings - External Inputs - HDMI Signal Format - Enhanced (new).
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Looks like Sony is the best choice here, except for the lack of FreeSync. Any other issues with the Sony that should be considered?
 
We need a monitor like this that can do 1080p @120-144Hz with Lightboost or similar technology and FreeSync
 
rekd0514 said:
We need a monitor like this that can do 1080p @120-144Hz with Lightboost or similar technology and FreeSync
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But you can't even use Freesync at the same time as backlight strobing it's one or the other. Although at least having the option to choose between the two would definitely be nice.
 
NCX said:
Both LG and Samsung use LED PWM Dimming which ruins motion clarity (example), manifests itself in the form of flicker (visibility varies) and also makes some people suffer from health issues like headaches and/or eyestrain. The Samsungs use VA panels which have darker blacks, but less vibrant and even colours due to gamma shift. The Samsung's are glossy though (gloss looks clearer and more vibrant in bright rooms) and are fine for non-PC use since their motion compensation features (not available when the PC modes 4:4:4 is enabled) are available.

Crossover, Sony and Wasabi Mango do not use PWM, both the Crossover and Wasabi Mango support Free-Sync (compatible AMD gpu required), but the Sony XBR49X830C has considerably better colour presets and supports 120z @1080p.
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http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/sony/x830c?uxtv=b58b6b8ba3c3
According to this review the Sony has worse motion blur than the Samsung
Can you compare the relative quality of this Sony X830C with the Samsung UN40JU6500? We watch mostly broadcast TV and on-demand programs, some sports, only occasional DVD movies, and no Blu-ray. There is some off-angle viewing.
The X830C is better for off-angle viewing, but it has worse contrast (and as a consequence of that, its black uniformity issues are exaggerated). It also has more motion blur. Straight-on, its picture quality isn't as good as that of the JU6500.
The main downside to the JU6500 is that it has judder when playing 24p content like DVDs, Blu-rays, and streaming movies.
If you watch lots of movies on demand, the X830C is a better choice. For TV, video games, and sports, the JU6500 has better in-axis picture than the X830C.
Jun 04, 2015
Click to expand...
 
S0L0 said:
rtings just confirmed this by updating the review :):




Looks like Sony is the best choice here, except for the lack of FreeSync. Any other issues with the Sony that should be considered?
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Did you read the full review on rtings? Here is their conclusion on the 49" model
The Sony XBR49X830C isn’t a great choice for a TV. Its picture quality is poor, both because of its IPS panel (which grants a wide viewing angle at the cost of contrast) and because the uniformity is quite poor. Unless you need to be able to sit out of axis, you should skip this TV in favor of something else.

The Vizio M50-C1 has great picture for the price. It does have a bit too much blur to be useful for gamers, but the contrast and uniformity make it a great choice for general movie and TV watching. It’s even okay for sports. If you’re looking for a good 4k TV that doesn’t cost too much money, grab this TV. See our review

Of the 4k TVs we’ve seen this year, the best TV for this size and price range is the Samsung UN50JU7100 . While it’s pretty expensive compared to the X830C, it also has a much better smart platform, better picture quality, and a better remote. If this TV is the right size and you can afford to get it, do so.
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S0L0 said:
rtings just confirmed this by updating the review :):




Looks like Sony is the best choice here, except for the lack of FreeSync. Any other issues with the Sony that should be considered?
Click to expand...
This is what I own and here is what rtings said about it
The Samsung UN48JS9000 is an exceptionally good TV, and is good for any use. Movie and TV lovers will appreciate the deep, very uniform blacks, and sports fans and gamers will love how little blur there is on fast movement. There also isn’t much input lag.

You get HDR capability with this TV, as well as local dimming and the ability to display a wider range of colors than the average TV.

The only real flaw with this TV is that it loses saturation when viewed at a wide angle. That’s typical for LED TVs, though, and not a reason to avoid this model. It’s the best TV we’ve seen this year.
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rinaldo00 said:
http://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/by-brand/sony/x830c?uxtv=b58b6b8ba3c3
According to this review the Sony has worse motion blur than the Samsung
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Rtings fails to understand their own tests scenario and bases their judgement off of still the measured response time + color streaking (evident by the still image taken by their pursuit camera), neglecting entirely the incredibly obvious motion artifacting as a result of PWM. In practice, the Sony would look a lot better.

Read about PWM here: http://www.blurbusters.com/faq/lcd-motion-artifacts/

rinaldo00 said:
This is what I own and here is what rtings said about it
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Rtings simply holds contrast in too high a regard. Contrast simply improves black depth; the IPS panel will have much more vibrant colors, but lack the same level of black depth. This is especially true when used as a monitor, because using a large VA panel at small distances will result in massive gamma shift.
 
I had 1 TN 2 IPS 1 PLS and 2 VA panels and the picture quality was always better on a good VA panel.
Around +/- 10% better color reproduction on a IPS/PLS panel doesn't help you with the overall picture quality if the contrast ratio is over 300% lower.
I'm at a point now where i ignore every TV/Monitor that has less than 5000:1 contrast ratio including this fake VA (MVA+) panels that are marked at 3000:1 and barely have 2000:1 contrast ratio.
 
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Outbreaker said:
I had 1 TN 2 IPS 1 PLS and 2 VA panels and the picture quality was always better on a good VA panel.
Around +/- 10% better color reproduction on a IPS/PLS panel doesn't help you with the overall picture quality if the contrast ratio is over 300% lower.
I'm at a point now where i ignore every TV/Monitor that has less than 5000:1 contrast ratio including this fake VA (MVA+) panels that are marked at 3000:1 and barely have 2000:1 contrast ratio.
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Assuming you could have accurate gamma (i.e no gamma shift) the VA panel would be fine if it had equal gamut coverage to the IPS panel. What you're saying is simply wrong; contrast only affects black depth, not your overall picture quality. If your IPS panel has around 10% more gamut coverage, well then it's going to look a lot better -- minus blacks.

I would definitely never pay a premium for a VA panel unless I was going to sit very far away from it to negate its gamma shift.
 
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aadik said:
You don't know what you talk about Nikyo. VA FTW. OLED>VA>IPS>TN
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What am I wrong about? Please elaborate.

VA panels suffer from gamma shift, they do not produce colors near as vibrant as IPS panels, especially when the panel is larger (meaning more gamma shift when viewed from close up.) For the umpteenth time: contrast only affects black depth.

Here's an old comparison that ToastyX did: http://hardforum.com/showpost.php?p=1038190386&postcount=10
 
That link is 4 years old. Dont live in the past. Today VA(AMVA) are much better.
 
@Nikyo
When i was on hunt for a CRT replacement i saw the colour differents between a VA and a IPS/PLS with my own eyes and i still shake my head at some review websites.
And i also prefer gamma shift over this annoying IPS glow. And the VA viewing angle (gamma shift) has also improved quite well with the new VA panels which cannot be said for the IPS glow.
But i must say it's hard to find a good VA Monitor because for some strange reasons they put all the good VA panels in TV's this could be because most PC users don't really care about quality only look at how many TN's users are out their.

@aadik
I hope they finally start mass producing OLED so that we can get rid of this crapy LCD's.
 
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aadik said:
That link is 4 years old. Dont live in the past. Today VA(AMVA) are much better.
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No, that still holds true for any VA panel. I owned a BL3200PT and the issue was much the same. Please provide a coherent arguement with actual information to support your claim if you're going to tell me "I don't know what I'm talking about."

Outbreaker said:
@Nikyo
What you say is not correct because when i was on hunt for a CRT replacement i saw the colour differents between with VA and IPS/PLS with my own eyes.
And i also prefer gamma shift over IPS glow which is a lot more annoying. And the VA viewing angle has also improved quite well with the new VA panels which cannot be said for the IPS glow.
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So, do none of you understand what gamma shift is?
 
aadik said:
Thats known issue with BL3200BT panel not every AMVA have that problem.
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1844919
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*Sigh*

Nothing in what you've posted has anything to do with gamma shift. I'm convinced you don't even know what it is. And yes, it is an inherent issue with the technology.

A smaller panel would potentially have less issue, because then you'd be able to find a comfortable distance in which it doesn't desaturate colors toward the edge of the screen. Good luck finding that same distance on a larger 43-49" panel while keeping it usable. I think I had to sit further than 120cm to rid myself of gamma shift on the BL3200PT -- and your blacks won't mean a damn thing when your gamma is totally screwed up.
 
@Nikyo
Are you trolling? I said i prefer gamma shift over IPS glow. And gamma shift (which you don't really notice) has improved a lot with the new VA panels so did the viewing angle.
 
Outbreaker said:
@Nikyo
Are you trolling? I said i prefer gamma shift over IPS glow. And gamma shift (which you don't really notice) has improved a lot with the new VA panels so did the viewing angle.
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If you're actually attempting to claim you don't notice gamma shift (which desaturates color + blacks), then you clearly have no idea how this works in a sense of colorimetry.

Please refer to post from above; this issue has not changed.
 
Nikyo said:
*Sigh*

Nothing in what you've posted has anything to do with gamma shift. I'm convinced you don't even know what it is. And yes, it is an inherent issue with the technology.

A smaller panel would potentially have less issue, because then you'd be able to find a comfortable distance in which it doesn't desaturate colors toward the edge of the screen. Good luck finding that same distance on a larger 43-49" panel while keeping it usable. I think I had to sit further than 120cm to rid myself of gamma shift on the BL3200PT -- and your blacks won't mean a damn thing when your gamma is totally screwed up.
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Yes the issue in the topic above has nothing to do with matrix but with sharpening employed by the panel, no matter what type, and it never happens outside those test images.
The problem with the Philips color bleeding is a wholly different thing altogether.
The problem of many 32'' AMVA+ is a visible vertical band on some backgrounds.
None of these apply to all VA.

Gamma shift causes this shimmering on dark and dark grey shades when moving your head around, and black quickly brightens off-center.
On bigger panels the loss of contrast leads to desaturation of colors and loss of white luminance towards the corner. (these latter issues are not a problem on my 24'')

The contrast pics posted by ToastyX aren't very good and its an old cPVA I believe.
The gamma shift on his test image is present to a degree but the camera does not pick it up like this on my AMVA+:



There is quite a difference with contrast and a camera DOES pick a difference in black depth, and the image washes out slightly with lower contrast.
What is true though is it barely affects colours and bright scenes.
I can set my monitor to IPS black levels, at ~105cd/m² and all other things being equal:

~1000:1 - http://i3.minus.com/iyduljGNpUSHV.JPG
~3500:1 - http://i1.minus.com/i8AIXHDRi0jvL.JPG

~1000:1 - http://i3.minus.com/ibcSweLlAgMp6w.JPG
~3500:1 - http://i4.minus.com/ibomUzZv4gI9Sw.JPG
 
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@Nikyo
When i look for gamma shift then yes i find it, but it is much much less annoying than IPS glow.
And like i said before i was on the look out for a CRT replacement and after a real life comparison i found the 2 MVA panels (not MVA+) better versus the IPS/PLS.

@igluk
Are you sure the camera picks up the contrast difference? beacese the only real difference i see is the IPS glow. :D
And is it a MVA or MVA+ panel beacese i tested a MVA+ last year and i was really disappointed with the picture quality.
Not sure if it was because of the contrast ratio or because of the AG coating but the colours looked a lot more dustly than on the old MVA panels.
 
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igluk said:
The gamma shift on his test image is present to a degree but the camera does not pick it up like this on my AMVA+:

Click to expand...

I see similar gamma shift, plus the picture must be taken from normal viewing distances. Why is the picture so tiny, and how far away were you?

----------------

No one serious about image quality is going to use an LCD in a light-less room since none of the panel types can display pure black. A decent bias light (the 2600 lumen Daylight/6500k Philips CFL I use costs 15-20$ in Canada depending on sales) prevents one from needing to vastly reduce the brightness and mostly negates the contrast differences which leaves us with VA gamma shift and contrast loss (glow) versus IPS glow and lower contrast, but wider viewing angles, more even and vibrant colours and faster pixel response times. Modern 27-32"+modern AHVA/IGZO/IPS panels actually suffer from less white glow when viewed from 'immersive' viewing distances (60cm/2ft) than 27-32" VA panels which also suffer from gamma shift. Also, most of the VA panels used in non wide gamut televisions have less vibrant colours/smaller colour gamuts.

Viewing a 24" VA monitor from 60cm/2ft away is not the same as viewing a 32"+ VA panel from the same distance. The larger VA panels colours will look uneven and less saturated the further away from the center, and white glow/contrast loss is obvious when viewing dark content. Viewing a modern 24" AH-IPS panel is also not the same as viewing an old 24" e-IPS panel in terms of glow and viewing angles. The amount of glow AHVA/IPS/PLS panels suffer from has changed a lot in the past two years, especially in the case of AHVA and IPS panels. The Crossover 434K I tested suffered from less glow than my former 32" VA TV when viewed from 90cm/3ft away, as well as clearly had more vibrant and even colours since the VA TV needed to be viewed from 121cm/4ft away to avoid seeing glow and gamma shift. The 32" BenQ BL3201PH (AHVA) monitor I reviewed suffers from far less glow than the 27" AHVA BenQ BL3201PT released in 2013 when viewed from 60cm/2ft away.
 
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