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best surge protector?

F

forumposter32

Gawd
Joined
Jun 19, 2005
Messages
548
I read like 15 years ago about 6 outlet power bar surge protectors but I can't remember a damn thing about what I read. :eek:
 
forumposter32 said:
a tad expensive though for 2 sockets :eek:
Click to expand...


From the site:
"This product was initially designed to enhance the protection of any file server by being placed in series between the wall plug and the UPS (UPS’s have limited surge suppression/ filtering abilities). The lack of outlets minimize the chances of accidentally overloading the unit."

2 sockets would become 6 or 12 sockets, I suppose. Still . . . that's a lot of money :p .
 
Certain models from Monster Power will reimburse you up to $20k for pc equiment and various other electronics if it fails to protect you from surges.
 
MaMMa said:
im curious
Click to expand...
MP HTPS 7000 conditioner and the MP AVS 2000 stabilizer

Before anyone busts my balls about spending that much on monster stuff I bought it through an employee purchase plan on a model end clearence so I got it greatly discounted. I did so becuase where I lived at the time had about as reliable a power grid as an Eastern Block country.
 
I would just get a top model Belkin or APC surge protector. I wouldn't spend a ton of money on one. I've got a Belkin Maximum Series 8 outlet thats good for up to 135,000 amps and has a $250k connected lifetime warranty.
 
Ratboy said:
Certain models from Monster Power will reimburse you up to $20k for pc equiment and various other electronics if it fails to protect you from surges.
Click to expand...
Pretty much any decent surge protector has a guarantee on it. Personally I like Tripp Lite equipment, particularly their isobar surge protectors. The six outlet isobar ultra or whatever it is called can be had for about $50 and it has a $50k protection guarantee. APC is pretty good too, though. You should probably be prepared to spend at least $40-50 on it, though. Anything less than that is probably no better than a regular $5 surge protector. btw, you sure like monster, don't you ratboy? Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it just seems like most people around here shun them(and not totally without reason).
 
Spectre said:
MP HTPS 7000 conditioner and the MP AVS 2000 stabilizer

Before anyone busts my balls about spending that much on monster stuff I bought it through an employee purchase plan on a model end clearence so I got it greatly discounted. I did so becuase where I lived at the time had about as reliable a power grid as an Eastern Block country.
Click to expand...

i hope its not just a PC hooked up to that. I'd get those Power Surges only if I had something like this

1106507274.jpg
 
MaMMa said:
i hope its not just a PC hooked up to that. I'd get those Power Surges only if I had something like this
Click to expand...

No the rest of my av stuff is also. I figured what the hell might as well for use it for the computer as well.
 
So it's recommended to have the surge protector before the UPS?
confused.gif
I have it the other way around....
 
Vertigo Acid said:
So it's recommended to have the surge protector before the UPS?
confused.gif
I have it the other way around....
Click to expand...
Depends.

If you have a "Brick Wall" or "Monster" the the surge protector goes first.

If you have a good APC UPS don't use any lesser surge protectors at all.
 
davidhammock200 said:
If you have a good APC UPS don't use any lesser surge protectors at all.
Click to expand...

What would be wrong with using a good Belkin or APC surge protector in front of the UPS as sort of a first line of defense in case lightning or something hits hard enough to damage it then the surge protector will go first instead of the UPS?

And is there any danger in having the UPS with all the components on it connected to just one outlet on the surge protector? It wouldn't overload that one outlet on the surge protector would it? lol
 
Your average cheap office surge protectors use MOV's (Metal Oxide Varistors) to provide their protection. Basically if the voltage in one line increases to a certain point, these MOV's short the connection which will trip the surge protector. Every time an MOV has this happen, it degrades. It's voltage tolerance will drop, sometimes to a point where it can trip just from normal voltage variations in a line, and it can even catch on fire if it has degraded enough.

If you want the "best" surge protector, you need something like the brick wall which doesn't use MOV technology. MOV's are cheap, but good surge protection is expensive.
 
I have been looking at buying a monster cable MPB 2100 for my computer. I also have been thinking of a MP PRO 3500 for my home theater system.
 
slickmitch said:
Notice the 7 figure protection.
Click to expand...

NOt directed at this manufacturer but whenever the warranty is the sole basis of recommendation I just got to say:

Tommy: Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting.
Ted: I'm listening.
Tommy: Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.
Ted: Yeah, makes a man feel good.
Tommy: 'Course it does. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter.
Ted: What's your point?
Tommy: The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.
Ted: But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?
Tommy: Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.
Ted: Hmm. Okay, I'll buy from you.
Click to expand...
 
burningrave101 said:
What would be wrong with using a good Belkin or APC surge protector in front of the UPS as sort of a first line of defense in case lightning or something hits hard enough to damage it then the surge protector will go first instead of the UPS?

And is there any danger in having the UPS with all the components on it connected to just one outlet on the surge protector? It wouldn't overload that one outlet on the surge protector would it? lol
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APC says not to as it will increase the danger, not decrease it!

http://apc.com

This does not apply to Brick Wall or Monster, they go between the wall & the UPS.
 
davidhammock200 said:
APC says not to as it will increase the danger, not decrease it!

http://apc.com

This does not apply to Brick Wall or Monster, they go between the wall & the UPS.
Click to expand...

How the heck would it increase the danger? If lightning hit it it would take out the surge protector first instead of the UPS. How would it increase anything? My Belkin surge protector is rated for 2655 joules while my new Belkin 900VA i just ordered is only 1080 joules. It seems to me like i'd want that sourge protector in there as an extra layer of protection. Can you link me to any reason why it would INCREASE the danger?
 
burningrave101 said:
How the heck would it increase the danger? If lightning hit it it would take out the surge protector first instead of the UPS. How would it increase anything? My Belkin surge protector is rated for 2655 joules while my new Belkin 900VA i just ordered is only 1080 joules. It seems to me like i'd want that sourge protector in there as an extra layer of protection. Can you link me to any reason why it would INCREASE the danger?
Click to expand...
This is only a small portion of the data available.

http://nam-en.apc.com/cgi-bin/nam_e...nl_JnBfcHJvZF9sdmwyPX5hbnl_JnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=
 
davidhammock200 said:
This is only a small portion of the data available.

http://nam-en.apc.com/cgi-bin/nam_e...nl_JnBfcHJvZF9sdmwyPX5hbnl_JnBfcGFnZT0x&p_li=
Click to expand...

Plugging your UPS into a surge protector: In order for your UPS to get the best power available, you should plug your UPS directly into the wall receptacle. Plugging your UPS into a surge protector may cause the UPS to go to battery often when it normally should remain online. This is because other, more powerful equipment may draw necessary voltage away from the UPS which it requires to remain online.
Click to expand...

I dont think thats very likely to happen with your normal PC devices plugged into the surge protector. With a quality surge protector like a Belkin or APC model i really dont see any risk of using the UPS in conjunction with a surge protector. In fact i know i've seen it recommended before although i dont remember where it was.

Maintaining EPP and Warranty: Plugging any non-APC surge protector, power strip, or extension cord into the output of an APC brand UPS could void your Equipment Protection Policy (EPP). However, the standard 2 year product warranty is maintained. If, after taking into consideration this knowledge base document, you choose to use an APC brand surge protector in conjunction with your APC brand UPS, your warranty and Equipment Protection Policy will be maintained.
Click to expand...

If there was any real negative effect from using a surge protector in conjunction with the UPS then i'm pretty sure they would stipulate that it will void your EPP instead of saying its ok to do if you want to as long as your spend your money buying an APC brand surge protector.
 
burningrave101 said:
I dont think thats very likely to happen with your normal PC devices plugged into the surge protector. With a quality surge protector like a Belkin or APC model i really dont see any risk of using the UPS in conjunction with a surge protector. In fact i know i've seen it recommended before although i dont remember where it was.

If there was any real negative effect from using a surge protector in conjunction with the UPS then i'm pretty sure they would stipulate that it will void your EPP instead of saying its ok to do if you want to as long as your spend your money buying an APC brand surge protector.
Click to expand...
There is much more info there, but you must dig.

I recommend following APC's recommendations.

Dave
 
davidhammock200 said:
There is much more info there, but you must dig.

I recommend following APC's recommendations.

Dave
Click to expand...

Well i'd just like to know exactly why you shouldn't hook the UPS up to a surge protector because the UPS doesn't seem to provide very high voltage spike protection in comparison to a good surge protector.
 
burningrave101 said:
Well i'd just like to know exactly why you shouldn't hook the UPS up to a surge protector because the UPS doesn't seem to provide very high voltage spike protection in comparison to a good surge protector.
Click to expand...
Because of the nature of standard surge protectors & their associated problems.

Ice Czar has an excellent post on this, I'll see if I can find it.

EDIT:

I can't find it, as I posted there is much more in the APC knowledge base, but you have to really dig.
 
Arkalius said:
Your average cheap office surge protectors use MOV's (Metal Oxide Varistors) to provide their protection. Basically if the voltage in one line increases to a certain point, these MOV's short the connection which will trip the surge protector. Every time an MOV has this happen, it degrades. It's voltage tolerance will drop, sometimes to a point where it can trip just from normal voltage variations in a line, and it can even catch on fire if it has degraded enough.

If you want the "best" surge protector, you need something like the brick wall which doesn't use MOV technology. MOV's are cheap, but good surge protection is expensive.
Click to expand...
^ ;)

and it drops that power into the ground which can be problematic in connected systems
(see ground currents at Brickwall)

also its not "just" cheap surge protectors even UPSs and many rather expensive surge protectors emply MOVs, assume that unless specifically stated otherwise its MOV based ;)

MonsterCable is effectively the same stuff as a Brickwall, plus a few hundred dollars in case design and brandname :p

Oh I nearly forgot to rag on Spectre :p
 
davidhammock200 said:
Because of the nature of standard surge protectors & their associated problems.

Ice Czar has an excellent post on this, I'll see if I can find it.
.
Click to expand...

??
http://nam-en.apc.com/cgi-bin/nam_e...iZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMj1_YW55fiZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**&p_li=
APC recommends against the use of any surge protector, power strip or extension cord being plugged into the output of any APC Back-UPS and Smart-UPS products. This document will explain why.


Plugging a surge protector into your UPS: Surge protectors filter the power for surges and offer EMI/RFI filtering but do not efficiently distribute the power, meaning that some equipment may be deprived of the necessary amperage it requires to run properly – causing your attached equipment (computer, monitor, etc) to shutdown or reboot. If you need to supply additional receptacles on the output of your UPS, we recommend using Power Distribution Units (PDU's). PDUs evenly distribute the amperage among the outlets, while the UPS will filter the power and provide surge protection. PDU’s use and distribute the available amperage more efficiently, allowing your equipment to receive the best available power to maintain operation.

However, please note that the UPS is designed to handle a limited amount of equipment. Please be cautious about plugging too much equipment into the UPS to avoid an overload condition. To understand the load limit of your particular model UPS please consult the User's Manual, or visit APC's Product Page at www.apcc.com/products.


Plugging your UPS into a surge protector: In order for your UPS to get the best power available, you should plug your UPS directly into the wall receptacle. Plugging your UPS into a surge protector may cause the UPS to go to battery often when it normally should remain online. This is because other, more powerful equipment may draw necessary voltage away from the UPS which it requires to remain online.
Click to expand...

http://nam-en.apc.com/cgi-bin/nam_e...SZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMj1_YW55fiZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**&p_li=
Question
What are the grounding requirements for APC products?
Answer
Although the Surge Arrest, Surge Station, Back-UPS, Back-UPS Pro, Smart-UPS, Smart-UPS V/S, and Matrix-UPS products will appear to work properly without a ground, APC always recommends that these units are grounded properly. Grounding is not for functionality, but rather for safety. Numerous issues are involved when there is no ground, including potential for electric shock, signal attenuation, and unpredictable operation. Therefore, APC does not support using these products in any ungrounded application, even with an earth leakage monitor or other such device in place to alarm in case of excess current or drop in resistance.


Background: Earth leakage monitors measure the resistance between phase (hot) and any current-carrying component to ensure that resistance remains high. Leakage current is typically measured by breaking the ground connection back to the mains and inserting a specific load that simulates a person interrupting the ground. Devices without a ground are highly insulated, and therefore the missing ground is not an issue during normal operation. However, were the device to become energized due to a fault or failure, it would look for a way to deflect the current to ground. Without a ground present, the current would take the path of least resistance. This would be hazardous as the return path may be through the load itself, a data line, or even a person.

In 120 Vac environments, each electrical device must reference the same ground which originates at the main service panel. Additionally, a properly grounded chassis acts as a filter against EMI/RFI interference. If this ground reference were missing, the EMI/RFI interference may result in erratic behavior of the device.

Certain types of data communication systems require a reference to ground. Additionally, some data lines use the ground as a shield against noise. RS-232, and other data cables, rely on ground to provide a return reference for the signal (although this is not the case with isolated data systems such as Ethernet). Without a ground, the signal will attenuate.
Click to expand...

http://nam-en.apc.com/cgi-bin/nam_e...SZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMj1_YW55fiZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**&p_li=

Joules vs. Let-Through Voltage

Definitions

A Joule is a unit measurement of energy (Watt-seconds). For example, 60 joules
is equivalent to a 60 watt light bulb that is on for one second.

Effective Clamping Voltage is the peak voltage which is measured at the output
of the surge protection device after a surge condition occurs. This voltage is
the total voltage which is passed to the protected equipment and is, typically,
the let-through voltage plus the peak AC voltage (i.e. 169Vpk for a standard
120VAC power). Per ANSI C62.41 and UL1449 standards, the surge protection
device is subjected to a 6000V, 500A unidirectional surge to determine the
effective clamping voltage level. UL's best performance rating is 330V.

Let-Through Voltage is actually the difference between the effective clamping
voltage and the peak AC voltage. For example, a UL 330V rating indicates that
the let-through voltage to the protected equipment is < or = 330V minus 169
Volts peak (for a standard 120 VAC power).

Metal Oxide Varistor (MOV's are used extensively by the majority of surge
protection device manufacturers, including APC, for shunt-mode suppressors.
MOV's are electrical components which are used to divert surge current and
clamp surge voltage to a lower level.


Discussion

The intent of a surge protection device (line cord connected type) is to
protect equipment from a harmful overvoltage caused from a surge condition.
The perception has been that a higher device joule rating is analogous to a
better performing product. We believe that let-through voltage is a better
indicator of performance than joules.

A surge protection device with a higher joule rating does not necessarily mean
that the let-through voltage is better. In other words, the amount of energy
that the surge protection device can absorb (i.e. joules) does not mean that it
is providing the "best" protection for your equipment. A joule rating is
indicative of the MOV rating only. It does not take into account the other
parts of the surge protection device which may be effected by a surge (i.e.
fuses, printed circuit board traces, wiring, etc.). Let-through voltage takes
this into account since it represents the suppressed surge voltage at the
output of the device.

There are two approaches which may be taken to increase a surge protection
devices joule rating:

1) Use MOV's which have a higher joule rating. Typically, MOV's with a higher
joule rating also have a higher surge clamping voltage which will result in a
higher let-through voltage to the protected equipment.

2) Increase the number of similar rated MOV's (cascaded in parallel with each
other). The only problem with this approach is that the MOV's are not
impedance matched. Therefore, it is feasible that one of the MOV's will shunt
more surge current since its impedance may be lower. The other MOV's will also
shunt surge current but it will not be evenly distributed since the impedance's
may be different. As a result, the surge protection devices' total joule
rating may not be relevant since the MOV's do not shunt the same amount of
surge current.

Therefore, based on the above and the intent of the surge protection device, we
believe that a surge protector should be selected based on the lowest
let-through voltage capability and UL's best effective clamping voltage rating
of 330V (i.e. UL1449 330V).
Click to expand...

http://nam-en.apc.com/cgi-bin/nam_e...SZwX3Byb2RfbHZsMj1_YW55fiZwX3BhZ2U9MQ**&p_li=
Question
Is it possible to Daisy Chain UPS systems together?
Answer
APC does not recommend that you daisy-chain two or more UPSs together. Each unit should be plugged directly into a properly grounded wall outlet for optimum surge protection.


We do not recommend this configuration for the following reasons:


1) It is not UL tested. Therefore, should something go wrong and damages be caused to your connected equipment, APC would not honor the claim. (Underwriters Laboratories Inc. [UL] is an independent, not-for-profit product safety testing and certification organization)


2)This configuration does not provide any extra surge protection. The UPS is designed to remove any possibility of a surge reaching the output recepticles. If a surge, strong enough to damage equipment was received, the first UPS in the chain would sacrifice itself to protect it's load. This would mean that power would be removed from the 2nd UPS in the chain and force it to battery.


3)Whenever connecting a 2nd UPS into a 1st UPS, the chance of Overloading the 1st UPS is greatly increased. The amount of receptacles in a UPS are restricted. This is due to the power limitations of the UPS itself. Although, the amount of receptacles has been increased, the overall Watt capacity of the 1st UPS remains the same. The capability of the 2nd UPS, will be inversely affected by that of the 1st UPS. Therefore, the overall Watt capacity of the configuration is no greater than that of the 1st UPS in line.


4) In most cases, daisy-chaining UPSs does not allow for extra run time. If you are using a UPS that outputs a step-approximated sine wave when on battery, as soon as the fist UPS goes on battery, the second UPS will also go on battery because it will see the step-approximated sine wave as distorted or bad power. Both units will discharge together, and will not provide any extra run-time to the load.


If you are looking for extra run-time, we recommend one of our Smart-UPS XL products, which have the capability of adding extra, external battery packs. If you require more runtime or VA capacity than you currently have, we recommend taking advantage of our Trade-UPS program. Through the Trade-UPS program, you could trade up your existing unit for a unit with a higher VA capacity or one which has extended run capability.
Click to expand...



Power Supply System Integration Part 2: Battery Backup @ Power Electronics Technology

UPS Nonlinear Loads

Most end users are oblivious to the problems encountered when an online UPS interacts with nonlinear load, such as a switchmode power supply. Fig. 3, on page 42, illustrates the interface between an online UPS and a switchmode power supply. The switchmode supply within the host system consumes its current in high amplitude pulses, and as a result overloads the UPS, distorts its output and degrades in performance. This isn't the case if the SMPS has power factor correction (PFC); and in the United States most SMPS don't have PFC.

Repeated measurements under practical conditions show that in non-PFC SMPS, the current peak to rms ratio reaches a crest factor in the range of 2.5 to 3.5. This high crest factor imposes a difficult load for the UPS.

Manufacturers specify UPS capacity in volt-amperes, and set the UPS current limit with resistive loading. This affects the user in two ways: first, the actual power (in watts) that the online UPS can deliver is 75% to 80% of its VA rating. Second, the UPS cannot support a nonlinear load like a SMPS to full power capacity. In fact, it can support an SMPS only rated to 30% to 40% of its capacity. A 1kVA online UPS will only be suitable for backing up a system energized by a 300W to 400W (non-PFC) switchmode power supply. Attempts to draw higher power by the SMPS will severely distort the output of the UPS and may result in shutdown. Some UPSs support nonlinear loads to various degrees, but the above rule is safe to use as a guideline.

The whole idea of generating a high-purity sinewave within the UPS, and then rectifying it within the SMPS is wasteful. A UPS may be deployed to run non-electronic loads, such as lights or motors. However, this is a minor portion of the market for online UPS. Many applications back up computers and telecom devices, as well as instrumentation systems used for critical applications. In all of these applications, the immediate load for the UPS is the SMPS within the systems. Peak current and inrush current are associated with this load at startup. This current of 40A to 80A per SMPS will cause the UPS to shutdown due to overloading, or the UPS must transfer the load to utility to draw its inrush.
Click to expand...
 
Sounds like a bunch of bullshit to me
I could under stand them saying "hey, don't try to pull all of the UPS'es power from one socket" or something like that.
But the notion that using a surge protector measureably effects how the power is distributed is crazy. I would guess that their recommendation is based on some far-out worst case scenario. Saves their asses
 
first example is for the general public
I subsequently edited in the enterprise class answers wherein they say better MOVs

I say screw that

http://brickwall.com/howwork.htm

HOW OUR SURGE PROTECTORS WORK

Most surge protector manufacturers make grand claims about their products but publish little of the technology involved.

We claim that our Brick Wall surge protectors offer performance, reliability and safety advantages that cannot be matched by other surge protectors. The following represent the basic engineering principles.

how1.gif

Diagram of a Brick Wall Surge Protector

External surges first encounter the Series Mode surge reactor L1, and must pass through this surge reactor to reach the protected equipment. L1 resists the surge frequencies and immediately (zero response time) provides current limiting. The Brick Wall surge protector reactor behaves like a relatively high value resistor at the surge frequencies and dissipates some of the surge as heat. Unlike MOV’s, TRANS-ZORBS and similar shunt based surge protectors that use elements weighing less than 1/4 ounce, Brick Wall surge protectors can easily absorb any surge repeatedly with absolutely no degradation.

Our surge protector reactor in conjunction with the capacitor C2, restricts the incoming voltage slew rate of up to 5,000 volts per microsecond to a maximum of 100 volts per microsecond (1 volt per 10ns). L1 and C2 operate continuously and react instantly for surges or noise lying within the normal dynamic range of the power wave. If the surge exceeds the normal ±180 volt peak dynamic range of the power wave, the dynamic clamp circuit (D1 C3) which tracks the peak of the power wave comes into play. With a diode clamp response time of 5ns, and maximum slew rate limited by L1 and C2 to 1 volt per 10ns, even a worst case surge will be clamped by the time the voltage exceeds the clamp voltage by 1 volt. The clamp circuit places a 180µf capacitor (C3) in parallel with C2, reducing the surge slew rate to about 8 volts per microsecond.

Two 'crowbar' circuits act on high energy surges. The series connected crowbar circuits consist of a SCR switch, inductor and a 180µf capacitor, chosen to minimize the disturbance on the power wave. The first crowbar circuit responds to the slew rate of the incoming surge. If a surge is large enough to generate more than 30 volts in less then 2µs across C3, then the slew rate crowbar neutralizes the surge. Should C4 become charged, and the voltage again begins to rise, a second crowbar will activate at 220 volts peak to provide a final measure of protection.

Since the surge reactor is a high impedance at the high frequencies of the surge, minimal high frequency current flows in the neutral wire and consequently the 'common mode' problem created by simple shunt surge protectors does not exist with Brick Wall Surge Protectors.
Click to expand...

they are designed to be inline with a MOV based line interactive UPS as already mentioned
 
I have the exact setup Spectre does. It's hooked up to ultra high end A/V gear - 60" television, DVD, HD, Reciever, Speakers, and soon to be LCD or DLP projector.
 
icehokplyr said:
Lemme see? You got us all curious now. :eek:
Click to expand...
Well, we were all curious until he answered us on the first page: :p
spectre said:
MP HTPS 7000 conditioner and the MP AVS 2000 stabilizer
Click to expand...
 
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