Best radiator?

[Cathar]

Cathar, do you know of any review site that has the PA160 pitted against BIX's, Pro's, heatercores, etc.?

No review site that I know of. Quality radiator reviewers are rarer than hen's teeth, and a heck of a lot thinner on the ground than water-block reviewers (of which there are precious few quality reviewers already).

Is it really true that it cools better than a dual 120 rad?

This was never stated as a blanket statement. It was a qualified statement, meaning that there were restrictions on when it's true and when it's not. Given Thermochill's original HE120.2, the PA160.1 will provide superior cooling on a noise-per-noise basis up to around 100cfm fans on board running at full speed.

Now by noise-per-noise, keeping in mind that the PA160 is a single fan radiator and the HE120.2 is a dual fan radiator, then to achieve noise parity we are either using a pair of quieter/weaker fans on the 120.2 which total the same noise level as on the PA160, or we are undervolting the fans on the 120.2 slightly to reduce their noise level to that of a single fan.

In the above scenario, the PA160.1 definitely outperforms the HE120.2, and if you followed the threads to where that statement originated then that's what was stated.

Given a pair of fans on a HE120.2, vs a single fan of the same type on the PA160.1, the PA160.1 is typically about 5-10% behind with the gap between the two closing up as fan power goes down, and widening as fan power (and noise) goes up.

If one wanted to generalise, then It would be fair to say that the PA160.1 offers about as close to a dual-fan radiator performance as is possible from a single-fanned solution. In some scenarios it's better, in some it's about the same, and in others it's a little behind.

I should note though that in no scenario is the PA160.1 better performing than a PA120.2. The PA120.2 is always superior whether you categorise by noise, air-flow, pressure, whatever, but the PA120.2 is also bigger (longer), so that's the only "drawback" with a PA120.2.

 

[headala]

Wow, thanks for the explanation. I guess the other main strength of the PA160 is its low restrictive design.

I'm in on the Apex group buy, and plan to keep that rad for a while, but it's funny how I'm already looking for ways to upgrade the kit

Thanks for your help.

 

[Cathar]

Update my post above with more information/explanation, just in case anyone missed the edit.

 

[ShoNuff]

The PA120 radiator series features a dual-row dual-pass 120mm form factor, available in single, double and triple sizes, optimised for the fans of today and putting into practice everything learned about watercooling efficiency and performance over the past 3 years. The PA Series boasts from 10-40% better performance over the HE Series. 10% for the high / noisy airflow end of the fan market, and up to 40% for the low airflow / silence end of the market.

...This new product line will be available for retail purchase in the week commencing 26th September. We expect the series to be available from ThermoChill International Resellers by mid-October. We at ThermoChill recognise that we may not offer the cheapest radiator solutions, but ThermoChill's mission as always is to provide the highest performance and highest quality radiators on the market. Correspondingly we believe that the new PA120 Series is the best performing 120mm format series of radiators currently available, thus enabling Thermochill to retain the crown – “King of Cool

Cathar, based on these claims I am very interested in the new PA Series. Conceptually I am wondering where I could put a triple-fan version of this rad into my case. Can you share any pics or direct me to where I might be able to see the new PA Series?

 

[malicious]

Yeppers, I'd give that one the top vote also........ And next in line would be this radiator from Voyeur Mods

anybody know of any pics of these mounted besides the one on voyeurmods

 

[ShoNuff]

Cathar, based on these claims I am very interested in the new PA Series. Conceptually I am wondering where I could put a triple-fan version of this rad into my case. Can you share any pics or direct me to where I might be able to see the new PA Series?

I guess not...

If anyone else is interested watch this spot for more details. There may be some news/pics on Friday.

edit: added link

 

[Cathar]

The PA120 series will be identical externally to the existing HE120 series rads (same size, shape, body, shrouds, grills, etc).

 

[CAD OC'er]

What about HWL X-flows?

 

[bitbum]

Yes. I am starting to see product in peoples hands. Maybe sometime soon.

 

[ikellensbro]

Eh, I'd take this over the 1800 any day :

The whole Overclockers.com project: http://www.overclockers.com/tips1209/

That AC radiator is definately huge, but just about anything that size could be run passively, and easily without that much restriction. That would be hell for a weaker pump to push up through that radiator, my brother has a PC-70 so I know how tall that thing is.

TN, if you wanted to discuss radiators, then say that in the thread title or at least the first post, otherwise, this is the second recent thread you've started saying an AC component is the greatest in its class. Please TN, this kind of stuff is fine in the AC thread, but out here we're trying to sensibly discuss water cooling, not just saying that this is the latest and greatest, without any quality testing to back up claims.

 

[Justshoe]

You know some of the newer heatcores in vehicles. IE 02+Dodge Rams i know for sure, Im a dodge tech, are actually very high flow but use a thin metal heat fins which allows for more surface area to drain off heat i dont know how much more affective it would be for WC apps. but if someone can come across one it may be worth it. If i ever can get one of a truck i will just to see what happens.

 

[Top Nurse]

Eh, I'd take this over the 1800 any day :

The whole Overclockers.com project: http://www.overclockers.com/tips1209/

Not a bad little radiator, but it is totally a one-of-a-kind radiator. It also takes a gigantic pump to run it along with a totally custom set of brass tubes. But we were discussing real comercially available rads I thought. If you want to talk custom I will go for one of the rads my brother made for the Aquarium of the Pacific to keep the tanks cool. I guarantee it will outperform anything you can dream up, but wait! It isn't "tested" so I guess it really doesn't work. lol

That AC radiator is definately huge, but just about anything that size could be run passively, and easily without that much restriction. That would be hell for a weaker pump to push up through that radiator, my brother has a PC-70 so I know how tall that thing is.

Actually as I stated previously, in this very same thread in fact, it was designed for and runs very well with an Aqua Computer Aquastream pump. You keep forgetting that this is a closed system so the pump works just fine.

TN, if you wanted to discuss radiators, then say that in the thread title or at least the first post, otherwise, this is the second recent thread you've started saying an AC component is the greatest in its class. Please TN, this kind of stuff is fine in the AC thread, but out here we're trying to sensibly discuss water cooling, not just saying that this is the latest and greatest, without any quality testing to back up claims.

Again as I previously stated the Aqua Computer Evo 1800 has been running first both passively and actively cooled in the number one spot at Watercoolplanet for at least a year that I know about. But wait! I don't trust those damn Germans to tell the truth about anything.


BTW, did you read the title to this thread? It says "Best Radiator?" Did you by any chance not notice the question mark or the original post?

 

[Top Nurse]

You know some of the newer heatcores in vehicles. IE 02+Dodge Rams i know for sure, Im a dodge tech, are actually very high flow but use a thin metal heat fins which allows for more surface area to drain off heat i dont know how much more affective it would be for WC apps. but if someone can come across one it may be worth it. If i ever can get one of a truck i will just to see what happens.

Sounds interesting. Could you post a pic?

 

[J-Pepper]

basically... if you build it bigger, it's going to cool better!

so if Thermochills PA series were to be built to the same size as that AC one... the PA would royally kick AC's butt tbh.

We need like for like comparisions... basically if we shrink that AC 1800 down to a PA120.2 size... (which is an EVO240!!) then it shows how crap it is because the EVO240 can no way keep up with an HE, let alone a PA.

 

[Bio-Hazard]

Apples to apples is the only way to do a legit test............ that 1800 is like 5 120.3 soldered together...............and if I read the test correctly (and I did) they used 15 120mm Papst fans to cool the beast................... I got a idea, let me pull the radiator out of my truck and hook it up to see how well it cools...................

If you read a bit further down the radiator chart, you'll find that the airplex evo 360 is basicly about as good as the BlackICE Extreme II which is a whole 120mm fan smaller................

 

[Top Nurse]

So why is it you guy's want to argue semantics all the time. As you all have so eloquently stated before if it cools the best IT IS THE BEST. Or are we now all willing to admit that there other factors in being the best besides the best cooling ability.

 

[Cathar]

So why is it you guy's want to argue semantics all the time. As you all have so eloquently stated before if it cools the best IT IS THE BEST. Or are we now all willing to admit that there other factors in being the best besides the best cooling ability.

Surely something that is "the best" would be "the best cooling performance per unit of facial surface area", and then just scale the unit area to whatever size is needed.

I mean, if something is quite inefficient per unit area such that it needs to be 2x larger that something else, then that doesn't make it "the best" now does it? That just makes it super-sized to overcome its inherent design deficiencies. When it comes to cooling "excess" will always succeed, but for some of us lugging around something the size of a truck radiator isn't practical, especially when a more efficient design that's 1/5th the size may offer half the cooling capacity and 1/5th the noise, and which is still more than is needed for many setups.

 

[J-Mag]

I have one of these airplex 1800's which cools my CPU, NB, and both GPUs in a single loop with no fans. My 3000+ runs at 2.5ghz, and the 7800GTX's at 501mhz I still only pull maxload temps of 54C on GPU1 (GPU2 is 4-6C lower, consistently), and my CPU loads to around 40C max. This is all done with one aquastream. Albeit, I noticed considerable flow decrease when upgraded from a single evo 240 to the massive 1800.

 

[Erasmus354]

So why is it you guy's want to argue semantics all the time. As you all have so eloquently stated before if it cools the best IT IS THE BEST. Or are we now all willing to admit that there other factors in being the best besides the best cooling ability.

The pot calling the kettle black?

I thought we came to agreement a long time ago that there are different definitions of the best? I find it curious that when it comes to waterblocks your idea of the best is decidedly opposite than your apparent opinion on best when it comes to radiators. Interestingly enough your opinion on best flip flops such that you always favor AC gear...coincidence?


Watercooling is all about balance and compromise, and the best is what meets your needs and wants the best.

 

[weapon--]

Surely something that is "the best" would be "the best cooling performance per unit of facial surface area", and then just scale the unit area to whatever size is needed.

I mean, if something is quite inefficient per unit area such that it needs to be 2x larger that something else, then that doesn't make it "the best" now does it? That just makes it super-sized to overcome its inherent design deficiencies. When it comes to cooling "excess" will always succeed, but for some of us lugging around something the size of a truck radiator isn't practical, especially when a more efficient design that's 1/5th the size may offer half the cooling capacity and 1/5th the noise, and which is still more than is needed for many setups.

hmmm..actually, I think that would be the best per square inch as opposed to the one that effects OC ability the most (i.e. the lowest overall temp for the coolant and core/best overall heat dumping capacity). That can be overcome with airflow...an 80 x 80 rad could trump anything available if you pump about 500cfm through it. heh.

however, if you want to make it a strictly the "greatest cooling per smallest form factor" test, I have a chiller system that uses a fairly small exchanger with not much noise that will do close to 0C under FX fulload wattage...it is a good thing that expense and possible power consumption were not mentioned but square inch per inch it owns.

On the other hand, if we are talking straight water with no heavy hardware (heavy hardware = 20 lb. compressors), surface area matters (not that I had to remind you of that Cathar as you have mentioned it several times). Anyway, more surface area = less required airflow/quieter while still allowing for lower temps. If a dual 120 rad pops up that can match a quad 120 monstercore at 7v with close to no noise, I would consider it. Until that happens, I'll resort to making room for the extra finnage.

 

[Top Nurse]

The pot calling the kettle black?

I thought we came to agreement a long time ago that there are different definitions of the best? I find it curious that when it comes to waterblocks your idea of the best is decidedly opposite than your apparent opinion on best when it comes to radiators. Interestingly enough your opinion on best flip flops such that you always favor AC gear...coincidence?


Watercooling is all about balance and compromise, and the best is what meets your needs and wants the best.

ROFL

I personally wouldn't buy an Evo 1800 as it is way too big for anything I might want to do. I would have just let this thread die, but ikellensbro dredged it back up and so I just answered his post.

This whole thread started out by me as a pun on the state of affairs in [H]ardForum Talk Radio whence people were stating that "the best" was strictly a performance issue. So I found something that ran counter to what a lot of people were saying and it just so happened to be from Aqua Computer. Contrary to what people might think I don't believe that Aqua Computer stuff is the be all end all in watercooling in all products. They make some stuff that is "different" and other stuff that is "better" than other stuff available. Some of the stuff they make is not so good (not telling you which is which) but overall they are a topline manufacturer of watercooling equipment.

 

[Cathar]

weapon, talking about pure radiator based water-cooling here. No one was talking about phase-change or compressors, so unsure why that was brought up.

We're talking about the desirability in achieving the "best" performance by first achieving the "best performance per unit area", and then being able to scale the unit area to suit. Surely that makes sense to anyone, no?

Of course best performance per unit area HAS to be tempered by noise-level considerations. That is something that I think was a pretty obvious presumption. Pumping 500cfm through an 80x80mm rad is not practical.

More surface area DOES NOT mean less required air-flow. Air has an inherent thermal capacity. Can't pump more heat into the air than the air can hold without increasing the temperature delta of the air, and hence the water. Pumping an actual 10cfm through a 1 x 1 meter heatercore will perform little different to 10cfm through a 10x10cm heater-core (factoring in any passive thermal convection for either as part of that 10cfm).

A larger surface area means that it is easier to push more air-flow with less noise through that radiator. It doesn't mean that less air-flow is needed to achieve the same performance.

 

[Cathar]

This whole thread started out by me as a pun on the state of affairs in [H]ardForum Talk Radio whence people were stating that "the best" was strictly a performance issue. So I found something that ran counter to what a lot of people were saying and it just so happened to be from Aqua Computer. Contrary to what people might think I don't believe that Aqua Computer stuff is the be all end all in watercooling in all products. They make some stuff that is "different" and other stuff that is "better" than other stuff available. Some of the stuff they make is not so good (not telling you which is which) but overall they are a topline manufacturer of watercooling equipment.

Why stop with the Evo 1800 though? Why not a nuclear cooling tower? Why not 100 nuclear cooling towers?

Or if we MUST stick with radiators, why not a truck radiator, or even a radiator from a large car which would be 2-3x the size of the Evo 1800?

That would be better, but why didn't you suggest those when you had your tongue in your cheek?

 

[Top Nurse]

Why stop with the Evo 1800 though? Why not a nuclear cooling tower? Why not 100 nuclear cooling towers?

Or if we MUST stick with radiators, why not a truck radiator, or even a radiator from a large car which would be 2-3x the size of the Evo 1800?

That would be better, but why didn't you suggest those when you had your tongue in your cheek?

Nuclear cooling towers would be a cool thought But I was trying to keep it to something that was commonly used for watercooling. IIRC Innovatek or Alphacool also makes one of those big radiators as well, but just didn't know much about them.

 

[Cathar]

But I was trying to keep it to something that was commonly used for watercooling.

Commonly?

 

[penguin]

Commonly?

QFT

 

[Top Nurse]

Commonly?

ROFL

But to keep things in proper perspective I am sure there are more Evo 1800 rads out there then there are Little River G5's.

 

[Cathar]

ROFL

But to keep things in proper perspective I am sure there are more Evo 1800 rads out there then there are Little River G5's.

You sure about that? I have actual number of how many G5's are out and about in the world. May surprise you.

Also, if we DO insist on talking about "best performance", then why not include a truck radiator? There sure is a heck of a lot more of those out and about in the world involved in the cooling of water than G5's or Evo1800's.

 

[HiJon89]

I would love to see a comparision between the PA120.3 and the BI Pro III X-flow.

Don't bother, the BIP3 X-Flow would get completely dominated. BIP3 X-Flow vs. PA120.2 would be much more interesting although the PA would most likely lose.