Basic question

[merith]

I've been following F@H for a fair while now (and contributing with consumer-desktop level rigs) but I've noticed that when I try to tell people about it I always get variations on the same question;

How far along is the project? / When will it be done? / How many 'points' are there to be processed? / etc etc

Essentially people want to know how much progress has been made since things started a decade ago, and how much remains. Unfortunately I still don't know the answer myself, and be it because I'm a noob at looking around or because the information isn't there I can never seem to find an official answer.

In things like the human genome project there was a clear end point, perhaps due to the nature of protein folding that isn't really the case here. However without some sort of measure of overall progress I find convincing some people to put their own machines to work/raising funds/etc can be difficult. Perhaps the best one can do is point to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folding@home#Results and http://folding.stanford.edu/English/Papers , though it doesn't seem to grant the same satisfaction as being able to say/hear something along the lines of "We're half way there!"

 

[Kendrak]

F@H is operating on multipul fronts, it is not a single project.

There have been gains in many areas. Some of the papers bear this out.

To put a % compleated on F@H is a misnomer. They finsish projects and start new ones all the time.

 

[Vaulter98c]

People are goal based by nature. Any task you do, you are doing it until youve reached that point that youve learned is when it's done. I don't think folding will ever be "over", or atleast in the next decade. Folding is such a broad concept and Stanford is very understaffed on the matter. I think that even if we do find "the cure" someday, the entirety of understanding folding will never be understood, not with our current technology level.

I have a hard time getting people interested as well. Shit, even my mother asks me about every other month what good is it leaving the computers in my house run, why I ask her to leave hers on (only about 100ppd but its something). She is always wanting to know how close we are. I try to explain the papers to her, as best as I can lol, and every time Stanford puts something new out she's the first person I tell. Even after all that, she's still always asking, how much longer? I just don't tell herf the next decade or two lol

 

[Zero82z]

It'll be done when every disease in the world is cured. Until then, we keep going.

 

[itsrickjames]

Sounds like people just may want to jump in at the end of the project so they can claim they helped....

 

[DWolvin]

It'll be done when every disease in the world is cured. Until then, we keep going.

Nice thought! I think I may borrow that, if you don't mind...

 

[amdgamer]

My friends think i'm smoking crack or something right now, especially since I bought a Gulftown and don't game on it or anything. In fact my gaming rig has the weakest processor of my computers, which is why I don't fold on it anymore. The problem with people are that they are impatient as we have become a society of instant gratification. Things always take time, but people don't want to wait.

Even my friends who love AMD think i'm smoking crack since i'm also an AMD shareholder.........

I think need to take a 2nd shower.........

 

[lehmann]

I have been doing this for 10 years and have yet to find someone who gets it. a few think its cool most think im nuts. Even had the police question why i had soo many computers. they even threatened to take them and have them checked out. i just laughed and said help yourself. they never did. I expected to be raded for the power use as my power bill was twice the neighborhood usuall.

 

[tjmagneto]

This is a pretty time consuming process but look at all the questions that have to be answered before moving on to an actual cure.

First, find the mechanism of how protein folding works. Since it is such a rapid process it has to be broken down into the various events during the process of folding. When we get projects we are only getting a tiny piece of the puzzle at a time.

Now that we know how folding is supposed to work, so what happens when proteins misfold and how about what triggers misfolding.
What sets off the events that results in somebody getting Alzheimer's? What causes cancer in people without any risk factors?
Finally we then can move on to cures and better prevention.

As you can see there's a lot of stuff to be done.

To me it's not about the points, it's about results. It may seem slow but we are getting results.

Now it's time for me to go back to work and look for cancer.

 

[APOLLO]

My friends think i'm smoking crack or something right now, especially since I bought a Gulftown and don't game on it or anything. In fact my gaming rig has the weakest processor of my computers, which is why I don't fold on it anymore. The problem with people are that they are impatient as we have become a society of instant gratification. Things always take time, but people don't want to wait.

Even my friends who love AMD think i'm smoking crack since i'm also an AMD shareholder.........

Tell your friends that folding is not like anything else in computing - it's an entirely different animal. This is medical research at its cutting edge that requires the very highest performance and an atypical level of dedication. It just cannot be brought into a discussion about hardware priorities and transcends commercial loyalties.

I am using an AMD dual Opteron system dating back to '05-06 for my everyday tasks. It is my slowest system and this liberates any concern about losing folding production on it because it isn't dedicated. My fastest systems are dedicated folders and they're Intel-based purely for reasons that they fold better. Between '01-07 I purchased nothing but AMD with a few exceptions. I would still have been purchasing AMD today if the company didn't mess up Barcelona. The DC forum in the early to mid 2000s was composed of a hard-core AMD member base second only to the AMD processor forum itself. Folding forces us to rethink such matters and look to the greater good.

 

[Gilthanis]

I think it is because you are making it too hard to answer. They don't want to research folding on their own just because you say it is good. There is a lot of info. and a lot of choices. There are also a lot of fears with no direct compensation for THEIR resources. Quite frankly, very few crunchers EVER read one of those papers. Sending Noobs there will probably get you zilch as far as volunteers. I find it easiest to start Noobs on projects like WCG/BOINC where there IS an end point for each project and they CAN feel like they got somewhere even if they never research it. These projects also are easily configured to not interfere with their daily computing. Then after they are hooked, get them into whatever else you like such as F@H. I find that even within the tech industry, few computer geeks actually can describe the term distributive computing without a little help. Start your friends out simple. The rest will grow on them.

 

[amdgamer]

The problem is that they don't really care about medical research. They think that medical research will take care of itself. One if a advanced practitioner nurse too. I am hoping that the release of Bulldozer will help balance the universe once again. Folding transends commercial loyalties, but folding would be screwed if AMD went under and Intel had the market to themself. We could potential return to the days when Intel was able to charge near monopoly pricing for outdated POS like the Prescotts.

Tell your friends that folding is not like anything else in computing - it's an entirely different animal. This is medical research at its cutting edge that requires the very highest performance and an atypical level of dedication. It just cannot be brought into a discussion about hardware priorities and transcends commercial loyalties.

I am using an AMD dual Opteron system dating back to '05-06 for my everyday tasks. It is my slowest system and this liberates any concern about losing folding production on it because it isn't dedicated. My fastest systems are dedicated folders and they're Intel-based purely for reasons that they fold better. Between '01-07 I purchased nothing but AMD with a few exceptions. I would still have been purchasing AMD today if the company didn't mess up Barcelona. The DC forum in the early to mid 2000s was composed of a hard-core AMD member base second only to the AMD processor forum itself. Folding forces us to rethink such matters and look to the greater good.

I have been doing this for 10 years and have yet to find someone who gets it. a few think its cool most think im nuts. Even had the police question why i had soo many computers. they even threatened to take them and have them checked out. i just laughed and said help yourself. they never did. I expected to be raded for the power use as my power bill was twice the neighborhood usuall.

That is my biggest fear. I am sure my electric bill isn't that much higher than the neighborhood average, but these days you have to be paranoid about this type of stuff.

 

[APOLLO]

I am hoping that the release of Bulldozer will help balance the universe once again. Folding transends commercial loyalties, but folding would be screwed if AMD went under and Intel had the market to themself. We could potential return to the days when Intel was able to charge near monopoly pricing for outdated POS like the Prescotts

I dread that day like I dread the Apocalypse.

 

[DWolvin]

Seconded (thirded?) for bulldozer being great. Please please pretty please. I know Intel makes great proc's, but I dread them without a challenger.

 

[amdgamer]

Seconded (thirded?) for bulldozer being great. Please please pretty please. I know Intel makes great proc's, but I dread them without a challenger.

The ironic thing is that while Intel could potentially wipe AMD out, AMD could also potentially wipe nVidia out. Southern Islands is right around the corner, and it appears that discrete AIB based GPU's are on their way out for anything but the performance and enthusiast level computers.

This is a trend that must have nVidia very nervous right now. I am curious to see how they are going to be able to play things out with the Fermis as they are limited just as AMD is limited to the current 40nm node technology. We also know that their motherboard team went and left for Sapphire.

 

[DWolvin]

The whole MB team went to Sapphire? When did that happen?
And does that mean Sapphire will stop making cards that frustrate me? I loved my 4850 until I ended up with a second flatscreen and got all excited about dual goodness. An hour and a half later I had just about given up when I found posts online indicating that I was not crazy- it will not drive two monitors despite two outputs.

 

[amdgamer]

The whole MB team went to Sapphire? When did that happen?
And does that mean Sapphire will stop making cards that frustrate me? I loved my 4850 until I ended up with a second flatscreen and got all excited about dual goodness. An hour and a half later I had just about given up when I found posts online indicating that I was not crazy- it will not drive two monitors despite two outputs.

Yeah, it was a front page article posted on hardocp a short while back. Apparantly eVGA's motherboard team left for Sapphire not long after the SR2's were released.

 

[APOLLO]

The ironic thing is that while Intel could potentially wipe AMD out, AMD could also potentially wipe nVidia out.

This is a trend that must have nVidia very nervous right now. I am curious to see how they are going to be able to play things out with the Fermis as they are limited just as AMD is limited to the current 40nm node technology.

nVidia should also be concerned about Sandy Bridge and sure they already are. SB previews have demonstrated all but mid to high-end video parts are going to prove redundant in the graphics market. Which means, they are going to have to concentrate in the lower volume, higher end segment of the market. That or redefine themselves.

 

[zero2dash]

Yeah but to be fair, low end cards aren't real sellers....most people in that market use onboard, in most cases they're running Intel GMA. Not too many people buy boards with no onboard video, don't game, and then turn around to buy like an 8400GS, just to run desktop/2D.

Sandy Bridge won't really hurt these guys much I don't think....if anything, it will eliminate Intel from having to segment their lines and make boards with and without GMA, because it will be on-die on the cpu already (IIRC from what I've skimmed of the architecture). GPUs will still be necessary for everyone else. I don't think nV is scared of anything at this point, after all they just sunk $2M into Crysis 2. (hype be damned)

I am very surprised about EVGA's board guys going to Sapphire, I hadn't heard that. Kinda puts a little preemptive scare into me before I even get to a point where I could even afford to cart out an SR-2 system.

 

[amdgamer]

nVidia should also be concerned about Sandy Bridge and sure they already are. SB previews have demonstrated all but mid to high-end video parts are going to prove redundant in the graphics market. Which means, they are going to have to concentrate in the lower volume, higher end segment of the market. That or redefine themselves.

Yeah, it is actually pretty scary when you think of the bind that nVidia is in now. I hate that company like you wouldn't believe, but they have fallen on some tough times lately. The rumor mill appears to be indicating that the GTX 460's arn't selling like they hoped and that another $10 price drop is coming. Micro Center is now selling the eVGA sorta-SuperClocked GTX480 for $499 now.

If they are only able to compete at the higher end discrete GPU AIB market, that is becoming intense as AMD's ATI division has southern islands just right around the corner, and we know that Fermi is likely stuck until Taiwan's TSMC is able to deliver a process node shrink late next year. I just hope that Stanford gets a decent ATI client out as there are a LOT of ATI video cards that are going unused for folding due to the current issues.

 

[Kendrak]

Yeah, it is actually pretty scary when you think of the bind that nVidia is in now. I hate that company like you wouldn't believe, but they have fallen on some tough times lately. The rumor mill appears to be indicating that the GTX 460's arn't selling like they hoped and that another $10 price drop is coming. Micro Center is now selling the eVGA sorta-SuperClocked GTX480 for $499 now.

If they are only able to compete at the higher end discrete GPU AIB market, that is becoming intense as AMD's ATI division has southern islands just right around the corner, and we know that Fermi is likely stuck until Taiwan's TSMC is able to deliver a process node shrink late next year. I just hope that Stanford gets a decent ATI client out as there are a LOT of ATI video cards that are going unused for folding due to the current issues.

Wonder what ramifications this might have for the EVGA team if this plays out in a bad way for NV.

 

[zero2dash]

I just hope that Stanford gets a decent ATI client out as there are a LOT of ATI video cards that are going unused for folding due to the current issues.

+eleventybillionstars and that is FTL
I don't give a crap WHO it is...PG, AMD/ATi....guys, please - get some work done on the OpenCL client and get the thing done! I'm tired of supporting Jen-Hsun Huang and his ridiculous mouth.

 

[Gilthanis]

I remember back when Matrox was a top dog for video cards...that Mystiq line was one of the first 3D cards on the market. Now, they are only special niche and aren't talked about anywhere. Don't underestimate the high end market.

 

[Nathan_P]

+eleventybillionstars and that is FTL
I don't give a crap WHO it is...PG, AMD/ATi....guys, please - get some work done on the OpenCL client and get the thing done! I'm tired of supporting Jen-Hsun Huang and his ridiculous mouth.

According to Vijay they are making steady progress on the openCL client.

however i can't find the link at the moment due to the extreme slowness of a celeron 1200 built by dell 10 years ago.