Banning iPods Cheating Our Children?

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Rich Tate

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We’ve seen a lot of stories in the past 2 weeks discussing technology being taken out of the hands of children for various reasons. This author argues that this isn’t actually making things better, but hindering our children. Please leave your comments at the link below.

I don't want to second-guess the individual decisions of specific teachers and school principals. But the ban does raise questions, the most interesting of which is: Should iPods or other handheld gadgets instead be "required" during tests?
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Let them use a Calculator and thats it.

Don't remember using an Ipod or Cell phone during my time in school?....if we didnt need them then, why is it a MUST to have them now?

Just excuses to let them be lazy imo

DASHlT
 
Let tak this theory a step farther and allow the students a PC for the test. In the working world you would be using every method at your disposal to find answers and figure out what you need to know so why not in school?
 
the sad thing is the few quizes I cheated on in middle school, I actually remmember the answer to the questions. I don't think I will ever forget Noah's 3 sons. It was in a religion class in 6th grade. HAHA.
 
look simple they dont need such things in school don't be stupid about it.
 
This article is retarded. Kids who put notes on their ipods aren't all that creative. People have been sneaking notes into tests for years. I remember writing dates and names on my forearms and palms prior to history tests. In fact, technology is causing kids to be slackers nowadays. Consider the AP exams for calculus. Back when I took it, graphing calculators were allowed, but they weren't as powerful as modern day ones. Even then, there were many people using them as a crutch. Nowadays, the TI-89 graphing calculator is allowed on the AP exam. I like to consider the TI-89 a "Mathematica Light." The thing will do symbolic differentiation and integration, and teachers are not teaching kids calculus, but teaching them to use their TI-89. So basically, you can have a kid who'll get a 4 on his AP exam, but in reality will not know how to do calculus.
 
ICOM said:
What a f--ked up time to be a kid in school.
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my thoughts exactly...


and for what its worth, the guy who wrote this article has absolutely no idea how things work....

he tries to make the point that math teachers require students to "show their work" because they are preparing them for a world with "pencils".....

that has got to be the worst line of reasoning in educational history, teachers require students to "show their work" because of the very same reasons that were talked about earlier in the article, teachers don't want students memorizing answers to math problems, they want them to be able to have the capability to solve the problems using rules they have learned (rules they can apply to real world problems too)

it sounds like this guy is a high school sophomore who is pissed about getting his iPod privileges revoked during pre-cal
 
so what? Doesn't matter in the real world, where you have access to tools far more powerful than a TI89. For example, I can design acoustically correct speaker cabinets without knowing a damn thing about the math behind the calculations thanks to computer programs. Unless you plan on teaching it or hasving a job where you really do need to know what you are doing (nuclear engineer, etc) than it doesn't matter in the slightest.
 
kevlinsky said:
This article is retarded. Kids who put notes on their ipods aren't all that creative. People have been sneaking notes into tests for years. I remember writing dates and names on my forearms and palms prior to history tests. In fact, technology is causing kids to be slackers nowadays. Consider the AP exams for calculus. Back when I took it, graphing calculators were allowed, but they weren't as powerful as modern day ones. Even then, there were many people using them as a crutch. Nowadays, the TI-89 graphing calculator is allowed on the AP exam. I like to consider the TI-89 a "Mathematica Light." The thing will do symbolic differentiation and integration, and teachers are not teaching kids calculus, but teaching them to use their TI-89. So basically, you can have a kid who'll get a 4 on his AP exam, but in reality will not know how to do calculus.
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also, i went through calculus with an 89, and i actually did get a 4... but i still know how to do calculus... you've got some kids that will abuse the system in order to skip having to learn... and you also have kids that use the technology to help them learn how to do things... the point is you've got to have a teacher that can tell the difference between abusers and the people that want to learn... my cal instructor wouldn't allow 89/92s on certain tests, not because it gave us an advantage over the kids with 83s, but because she wanted us to learn the rules and the logic behind the processes....


and it worked
 
computerpro3 said:
so what? Doesn't matter in the real world, where you have access to tools far more powerful than a TI89. For example, I can design acoustically correct speaker cabinets without knowing a damn thing about the math behind the calculations thanks to computer programs. Unless you plan on teaching it or hasving a job where you really do need to know what you are doing (nuclear engineer, etc) than it doesn't matter in the slightest.
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Some engineering group had to write the program that you're using to design your cabinets. And I guarantee you that they understand the fundamental mathematical principles which underlie the concept of "acoustically correct." And guess what? Their knowledge is the kind that is most useful to our society. Those guys could design speaker cabinets if they wanted to, (and probably better than you), but you couldn't write a CAD program.

We are dumbifying our kids! Somewhere along the line we forgot the importance of inculcating discipline into our youth and replaced it with a notion that everyone must succeed and that everything must be candy coated and everything must be plastered with user precautionary notes. If we allow our children to put notes on iPods, or run programs on their Ti-89s, all we are teaching them is how to take someone else's information and apply it, like an automoton, in a specific way. We are supposed to learn the hard stuff in school, because school is the only place where we have the time to learn that stuff. It's pretty easy, once you get to your job, to start utilizing the internet to find ways of doing specific tasks. It really doesn't require teaching. What students need to learn in highschool are the fundamental principles of the core disciplines, because there's no other place where we really learn those things. There is a certain freedom involved in understanding the underlying principles of any system, and we are not giving our children that freedom. We are making them into slaves.
 
computerpro3 said:
so what? Doesn't matter in the real world, where you have access to tools far more powerful than a TI89. For example, I can design acoustically correct speaker cabinets without knowing a damn thing about the math behind the calculations thanks to computer programs. Unless you plan on teaching it or hasving a job where you really do need to know what you are doing (nuclear engineer, etc) than it doesn't matter in the slightest.
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You've nailed a few points on the head. First of all, yes, in there are more powerful tools than the TI-89. After all, I called it "Mathematica Light;" that implies that there is a full version of Mathematica that can do a whole lot more. Secondly, you can be an amateur at something without knowing all the details. For instance, you can use programs like WinISD and Speaker Workshop to design a rectangular cabinet, or perhaps even a sonosub. Real designers, however, can build oddly shaped speakers, speakers using newer types of drivers, and in can design better crossovers. Lastly, too many people are required to learn things that they will never need to use in life. Pretty much every (good) college in the country requires math through calculus, two years of foreign languages, and basic science classes. I can understand the need for proficiency in writing, since that is practically a universal requirement nowadays, but the other things are quickly forgotten.
 
When I was in school we couldn't even use calculators or those nifty TI's that the other schools did. My school wanted everything done by hand and we did just fine doing it that way.

Kids these days are too spoiled.
 
By banning iPods, we're preparing our kids for a world without the Internet, a world without iPods, a world without electronic gadgets that can store information. But is that the world they're going to live in?
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So...its gonna be like 15 years ago? When i was in school we didn't have access to the internet, no ipods, flash drives, or any of this other crap. We....went to school...learned...and passed our tests.
 
mason.kramer said:
Some engineering group had to write the program that you're using to design your cabinets. And I guarantee you that they understand the fundamental mathematical principles which underlie the concept of "acoustically correct." And guess what? Their knowledge is the kind that is most useful to our society. Those guys could design speaker cabinets if they wanted to, (and probably better than you), but you couldn't write a CAD program.
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Sure, I can't write a CAD program, but I sure as hell can play Rachmaninoff better than them because that is what I have chosen to specialize in for my career. It is absolutely irrefutable that the average person wastes an enourmous amount of time using things they will never, ever use in the real world. We need specialization, not this "well rounded" crap. Obviously everyone needs to be well rounded to a degree - for example, one needs to be proficient at reading, writing, elementary math, etc, but it is absolutely ludicrous to consider calculus, physics, AP Literature (all of which I take), neccessary for people to take. Now note that I'm not saying they shouldn't take it, I'm merely saying that they shouldn't be forced to (as I am). If someone wants to become well rounded to that degree, so be it. But look at the towering figures in our history - Einstein, the Wright Brothers, George Washington, Bill Gates, and nearly every other historically significant person - a large amount of them share one thing in common. They conciously neglected schooling past a basic level in order to focus on a single goal. If they had been forced by useless laws not to to that, imagine how different our world would be today.

I want to become a concert pianist. I've been told I have the talent and I have been accepted into one of the best conservatories in the world. I can be completely honest and tell you that that simply wouldn't have happened if I hadn't significantly cut down my effort in my forced curriculumn classes. I get A's in the classes I believe matter; public speaking, AP Literature (I enjoy it), and classes that can be applied to my life. But as for subjects like Calculus, which I am not naturally gifted in and would have to spend an enourmous amount of time studying on my own in order to succeed in, it is simply not logical for me to spend my time sturggling in that when I can be refining my strengths that will be my future.

We are dumbifying our kids! Somewhere along the line we forgot the importance of inculcating discipline into our youth and replaced it with a notion that everyone must succeed and that everything must be candy coated and everything must be plastered with user precautionary notes. If we allow our children to put notes on iPods, or run programs on their Ti-89s, all we are teaching them is how to take someone else's information and apply it, like an automoton, in a specific way.
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First, I agree with you that we are dumbifying out students, and that the sugar-coating and everyone needs to succed stuff is complete BS. After all, that's not how the real world works. Some will succed and some will fail, and that will never change.

However, put those kids who cheat on tests in a situation where they study what they enjoy, what they find interesting, what they know they want to do in the future. See how many cheat then. I will freely admit that if I could cheat on every single calculus test I would. However, I would never dream of cheating in Music Theory, because I know I need to know it. By your Senior year, you have at least a general idea of what your strengths and weaknesses are. If you know something is not going to benefit you, why bother wasting effort on it? There is always the argument "What if you need to know if in the future", but to that I assert that when and if you need to know it, you will grasp it much less painfully because you have the motivation to do so.

We are supposed to learn the hard stuff in school, because school is the only place where we have the time to learn that stuff. It's pretty easy, once you get to your job, to start utilizing the internet to find ways of doing specific tasks. It really doesn't require teaching. What students need to learn in highschool are the fundamental principles of the core disciplines, because there's no other place where we really learn those things.
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Exactly. But don't think for a damn minute that Calculus is a fundamental skill set to have, unless you are going to go into a field that requires it (in which case specializing in it helps you even more!).

There is a certain freedom involved in understanding the underlying principles of any system, and we are not giving our children that freedom. We are making them into slaves.
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Agreed. Unfortunately, the educational system has evolved in a manner to be completely resistant to change. It will have to be radically altered (and even I'm not sure in what manner) in order to work as it should. Because in reality, serving the individual is the same thing as serving society, as capitalism has so successfully proved.
 
[BRO]Alaskan;1031016728 said:
Let tak this theory a step farther and allow the students a PC for the test. In the working world you would be using every method at your disposal to find answers and figure out what you need to know so why not in school?
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i use a laptop in my exams :)
I feel the schooling system here in the UK is based on a load of crap (tbh) and that instead of teaching you how to pass exams (as they do now) which you will forget all the stuff for anyway, why not teach you the subject itself.
 
To be honest I don't know why iPods are even allowed in schools to begin with. At my highschool we weren't even allowed to have CD players in class. They had to be kept in our lockers if they were going to be on school grounds.

Besides, items like that, in a school? Hello? Theft issue? Potential lead to more heinous crimes? (i.e. gunning down the kid who stole it, or robbing owner of said Ipod at gunpoint?)

Am I the only one who sees this problem?
 
computerpro3 said:
so what? Doesn't matter in the real world, where you have access to tools far more powerful than a TI89. For example, I can design acoustically correct speaker cabinets without knowing a damn thing about the math behind the calculations thanks to computer programs. Unless you plan on teaching it or hasving a job where you really do need to know what you are doing (nuclear engineer, etc) than it doesn't matter in the slightest.
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And who is the guy who designed that program? If people don't learn then there will be no one to create. Sure, you can design your speaker, but SOMEONE had to tell that program the math.

There are plenty of ways to cheat in the real world, but ultimately, someone, somewhere, has to have come up with the right answer originally.

Breeding out independent thought, and actual INTELLIGENCE is going to kill our species. Knowledge is plentiful, intelligence is minimal. Knowledge without the intelligence to know how to apply it is worthless.

I say that penalties for cheating need to be harsher.
Get caught cheating, in any way? 1 month suspension, mandatory summer school.
Get caught cheating twice? you are left back one year.

Who wants to be 20 years old before they are allowed to graduate?
 
computerpro3 said:
We need specialization, not this "well rounded" crap. Obviously everyone needs to be well rounded to a degree - for example, one needs to be proficient at reading, writing, elementary math, etc, but it is absolutely ludicrous to consider calculus, physics, AP Literature (all of which I take), neccessary for people to take.
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Good point. I absolutely agree with this. Forcing kids who shouldn't be there to take calculus is half the reason why calculus classes are getting so dumbed down. Our system still produces marvelous concert pianists because we don't force our engineers and english majors into piano class (and then demand that the standards be lowered until they succeed).
 
Why in the world would a school system allow students to bring iPods to class in the first place? Isn't that tantamount to saying, "Here, listen to this while I lecture for no apparent reason since no one is actually requiring you to pay attention or learn anything."
 
kevlinsky said:
Pretty much every (good) college in the country requires math through calculus, two years of foreign languages, and basic science classes.
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That's because we are a nation of rednecks. Two years of foreign language should be completed by 3rd grade, in my opinion. We "english speakers" are the MINORITY on this little marble. I think foreign culture education should be taught EVERY year. But, of course, that would mean we'd have to have a country where educational budget is more important than the prison or war budget.
 
One of the purposes of education is to give foundational knowledge and building blocks for more advanced topics. While I do think technology can be a tool for learning, I think it's best reserved for upper level education and should be moderated. At the elementary/primary school level some things just need to be memorized.

Would you trust a pharmacist or doctor who had to look at a periodic table everytime they were prescribing drugs?

Would you trust a civil engineer to build a bridge who could only do calculus integrals by looking at a table?

To use the example above - you can build speaker cabinets using a program...great. But then, the speaker you build is only as good at the program you're using. Can you build a better speaker? Can you evolve your speakers when new materials or methods become available? No doubt, someone else can reprogram and upgrade it - but that someone else is the person who has something that can't be "learned" by using technology in itself - creativity and ingenuity.

I have no problems with people being "specialized". If you know what you want to do and ignore all other areas of study, more power to you. But for the truth is, most people benefit from being "well rounded". The statistic now is that the average college study will change his major/area of study 4 times. I have no doubts that those "ignored" skills assisted in the changes.

Laziness also plays a factor here. If given a choice, most people would choose to be lazy. I find it a little sad though, if people can't do "simple things"... like add up how much they owe for groceries without a calculator. Is that really where we want to be headed?

It's too early in the morning for this kind of debate. I'm done.
 
Blue Knight said:
Laziness also plays a factor here. If given a choice, most people would choose to be lazy. I find it a little sad though, if people can't do "simple things"... like add up how much they owe for groceries without a calculator. Is that really where we want to be headed?
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I am routinely treated to a look of awe when I do something that I would consider "simple math" at the checkout line, or a restaurant, etc.. but then again, the people on the other side (mcdonalds, etc..) probably have no idea that 99cents x 4 = 3.96, and have no idea how to get to that #. But, those are probably the same "college graduates" who played WoW on their laptops instead of studying.

I know someone with a MASTERS degree (just obtained) who CANNOT do math without going to "Calc" on her cellphone.
 
"At school" does not mean "in the classroom". There are passing periods, lunchtime, etc. I still kinda think they should be banned all together because it's helping raise a generation of people with the social skills of a 5 year old. People walking around mashing away on their cellphone's keypad, sending a text message, while listening to their iPod.... completely oblivious to real life people around them.

At my uni, this is waaaay too common. On the bus ride to campus, there will be like 8 people. 6 will have ipods on, 4 will be texting, etc. In class too. I see this one chick all the time that leaves her phone open as if it were a laptop. Texting back and forth, like the damn thing is AIM or something.:rolleyes:
 
Cellphones, beepers, and Ipods have been banned at my kids school for a few years.. I don't see the problem with removing, items that are at best distractions, and at their worst tools for cheating or other criminal activities...
 
I have a hard time understanding why people ought to be forced to own an iPod? I do not want one and I would not spend money on buying one. I really fail to see where an entertainment device is required for school. I was under the impression that school was designed to facilitate learning, not listening to music.

I don't think a ban is necessary, but simply put: if a student's electronic gadget hinders his or the other students' learning experience, he may have to part with it. It worked pretty well when I was in school and I do not see a reason why it should not work now.
 
drizzt81 said:
I have a hard time understanding why people ought to be forced to own an iPod? I do not want one and I would not spend money on buying one. I really fail to see where an entertainment device is required for school. I was under the impression that school was designed to facilitate learning, not listening to music.

I don't think a ban is necessary, but simply put: if a student's electronic gadget hinders his or the other students' learning experience, he may have to part with it. It worked pretty well when I was in school and I do not see a reason why it should not work now.
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Certainly, that's another interesting way to look at it.. Kids that can't afford an Ipod would be at a disadvantage to those whose parents can.. So do we raise taxes and start another govt. program aimed at making sure every child has an Ipod?? I vote no...:D
 
mason.kramer said:
Good point. I absolutely agree with this. Forcing kids who shouldn't be there to take calculus is half the reason why calculus classes are getting so dumbed down. Our system still produces marvelous concert pianists because we don't force our engineers and english majors into piano class (and then demand that the standards be lowered until they succeed).
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Bingo. The fact is that our education system is among the worst of the major countries - China, Japan, and even India are producing infinitely more talented and creative scientists, engineers, etc, than we are. Just google the numbers, they are alarming.

However, in our careers where the training is focused and specialized and VOLUNTARY, such as concert pianists (as you said) we are still among the best in the world. Forcing me to take calculus class is akin to me forcing the average person to play a Chopin Ballad. It's simply unproductive.
 
Very good posts on this topic so far.

I've believed for a long time that to many people go to college. This is why studies are so generalized and dumbed down. Even in Grad school I had professors tell me, "I can't challenge you with the course work, so if you would like to do something else on your own for a grade that is okay. I just don't want you to lose your enthuiam because of boredom". While it wasn't like this in every class I can honestly say it was this way in well over 50%. If we had less students allowed to play in college rather then actually working towards an actual career goal the curriculum could actually be specialized.

I had an Art major in an easy human sexuality clas my senior (I was taking it for fun too I admit) who responded to a 5 page book report assignment on a 200 page book with, "Professor, I am an Art Major on my last semester, I have never had to write a paper and I am not going to start now for you!" :eek: She was serious... Overall my undergrad school was good, but sadly she probably wasn't the only one.

To the actual issue raised about cheating with Ipods... To me only the stupid cheat with Ipods, as many of you have mentioned equation banks are far superior. But even beyond that when I as in school I had a ti-81 I think and my friend and I used to program in our chemistry equations and tables and then share them. Any class that allows calculators is allowing easy cheating and unless the school can provide calculators freshly formatted for tests that kind of cheating is just going to be a fact of life.

A very good book on this topic that won a Pulitizer is, "Anti-intellectualism in American Life". He argues that if you think the current public education system is tailored to retards... You are right! And his book was written in 1964! He shows public education was started as a means of stopping child labor from hurting unions and when it became clear that the people being forced into high school were not at the same intellectual level as the lesisure class who formerly dominated the high schools the emphasis of education changed from higher learning to creating virtous citizens for a perfect kingdom for God in the US. A very good read.
 
Its interesting that if you examine popular media today as well as corporations you see that there is incentives to cheating or rather using all available means (legal, ethical, moral or otherwise) to get ahead. Enron and Survivor stand out but you can find others. So in a sense, all students learn is that cheating is the only way to get ahead in the world or at least maintain parity with others who cheat.

Books, like cellphones, calculators, computers and everything else we use is a tool. Tools we use or manipulate to to solve problems. Asking a carpenter to build a house with a just a wench is absurd. So too, is asking someone to solve a problem without using the tools available to him/her. School need to modify their curriculum to problem solving instead of memorizing facts.

So instead of abandoning technology and teaching children to "learn" by memorizing facts that they will forget, schools should instead allow students to utilize such tools. Create tests that use real world type problems and force students to utilize those facts would be of much more benefit and allow them to use their intellect to manipulate facts in a useful manner other than just something to memorize for a multiple choice question.

The last thing I want is a surgeon to operate on me with just a scalpel and a memorized (I hope) picture of where the organs are. I would hope that he "cheats" with an xray, computer printout, MRI, and anything else that helps...
 
It has been my experience that school is not merely a place to learn, but also a place to see who can and is willing to do the work to learn. When employers hire a college graduate, they know the person has probably forgotten most of the material you've been taught. Since the person was willing to put the work into getting a degree, they are also more likely to put more effort into work. Same thing can be said for cheating, a person who is willing to put the full honest work in is a harder worker than the person willing to put just 20 minutes in.
I would hire a hard worker over a smartass any day. With that said, I probably wouldn't hire someone such as myself. :p
 
CyberDeus-RagDoll said:
And who is the guy who designed that program? If people don't learn then there will be no one to create. Sure, you can design your speaker, but SOMEONE had to tell that program the math.
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So what? It goes both ways. The math people probably choose to do math over designing speakers because that's what they're good at. Maybe the fields are connected to a certain extent. It's highly ambiguous.

Hate to break it to you, but in the "real world", every person stands on the shoulders of everyone who came before him. You did not discover electricity. Does this fact haunt you every time you flick a light switch? I would hope not. Never in the history of mankind has there existed so much information about so many fields. Nevertheless, we are still mammals whose primary tasks are to nest and procreate. Originality doesn't exist, "intellectual property" is a joke that is going the way of the dinosaurs.
 
Blue Knight said:
Would you trust a pharmacist or doctor who had to look at a periodic table everytime they were prescribing drugs?

Would you trust a civil engineer to build a bridge who could only do calculus integrals by looking at a table?
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Those are biased questions. You presume the reader possesses enough prior knowledge of the tasks involved so as to accurately judge the ability of the "experts" in their respective fields. The problem is that we are living in the 21st century and everything is incredibly complex. The time that any one person can devote to learning is finite. You simply don't know enough about every field to critique the methods of its experts.

I would trust a house architect who counted with his fingers if his designs were proven successful. I would trust a person doing XXYZ who did it using S parameters if those parameters had repeatedly been shown to work.

The bottom line is getting results. Discussions such as these tend to evoke a whole mix of peculiar emotions and biases as each person approaches it from a unique perspective.

As regards "forcing" students into learning particular subjects, that is the very purpose of formal education to begin with. Children do not need to be instructed (not even very gently) to explore, experiment, acquire knowledge and draw conclusions. Formal education doesn't work, never has and never will. The subject is rarely considered in it's proper philosophical and sociological context. Nobody seriously challenges the very foundation of formal education, despite the fact that it is a decaying relic of human civilization.
 
In my opinion schooling in the United States is pretty cookie cutter.
If you guys as adults want us as kids to learn better than have more teachers
and have them actually work with us instead of just throwing work at us. There's
also 2 types of being smart, #1 being book smart and #2 having common sense.
My sisters might have 9x's but they usually can't figure complicated things out on their own.

On the other hand I might not do amazing in school but if someone asks me to do
something or i want to do something and have no teaching of how I can usually figure it
out on my own.

-By the way in my school Ipods, Cell Phones, etc... aren't allowed during the school day.
I usually listen to my super cheap mp3 player on the bus but that's not because I don't
want to socialize, It's because the little kids that ride it are screaming 24/7.

- People try to control others to much...
 
TopGun said:
In my opinion schooling in the United States is pretty cookie cutter.
If you guys as adults want us as kids to learn better than have more teachers
and have them actually work with us instead of just throwing work at us. There's
also 2 types of being smart, #1 being book smart and #2 having common sense.
My sisters might have 9x's but they usually can't figure complicated things out on their own.

On the other hand I might not do amazing in school but if someone asks me to do
something or i want to do something and have no teaching of how I can usually figure it
out on my own.

-By the way in my school Ipods, Cell Phones, etc... aren't allowed during the school day.
I usually listen to my super cheap mp3 player on the bus but that's not because I don't
want to socialize, It's because the little kids that ride it are screaming 24/7.

- People try to control others to much...
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Ah yes, another fine example or our school system. It's pretty obvious we need some sort of reform.

We do not need MORE teachers, just more QUALIIFED and caring teachers. And as for "throwing work at you", a teacher gives the lesson... YOU have to do the work on your own from there.

What does common sense have to do with schoolwork ?

Enjoy your childhood because when you grow up then you'll realize how much freedom you have lost and how much responsiblity you've gained.
 
Al Shades said:
So what? It goes both ways. The math people probably choose to do math over designing speakers because that's what they're good at. Maybe the fields are connected to a certain extent. It's highly ambiguous.
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This is flawed logic. It doesn't go both ways. It only goes one way. Anyone who can design a CAD program to assist in the planning of speaker cabinets is going to be able to use that program to design speaker cabinets. And because they understand the principles which underlie the design, they will be able to come up with some very creative solutions, whereas some automaton who is simply clicking buttons and using templates is much less likely to do that because he would just be getting lucky.

Hate to break it to you, but in the "real world", every person stands on the shoulders of everyone who came before him. You did not discover electricity. Does this fact haunt you every time you flick a light switch? I would hope not. Never in the history of mankind has there existed so much information about so many fields. Nevertheless, we are still mammals whose primary tasks are to nest and procreate. Originality doesn't exist, "intellectual property" is a joke that is going the way of the dinosaurs.
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The rest of your post isn't worth a comment.
 
Learn to crawl before you learn to walk, and don't try to convince me that you can run if you're hanging onto a walking frame. Note-taking devices and other 'aides' of many descriptions have no place in the exam room if they remove the need for students to actually internalise fundamental understanding and proficiency in the absence of such aides.

The article, and many of the comments made here which are of the "only results matter" variety fall down in one fundamental area. We can't assume that our situation will remain as it currently is, and thus we can't assume that the 'aids' will always be readily available. The article suggests:

By banning iPods, we're preparing our kids for a world without the Internet, a world without iPods, a world without electronic gadgets that can store information. But is that the world they're going to live in?

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Kids need to learn relevant skills in order to function in a changing world. Schools need to learn, too. It's time that schools accept the fact that the Internet and little electronic info-gadgets are everywhere and here to stay. A revolution has occurred. In one generation, we've transformed a world where information is scarce and hard to find to a world where nearly all knowledge can be available to everyone, all the time.

Instead of pretending that revolution never happened, let's take advantage of it to propel students into a successful future. Let's teach them how to deal with the new problem of too much information. Let's stop banning iPods and start requiring them.
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Thing is, though, that we've 'built' it in a generation and it can come tumbling down on us just as quick. Our entire technologies, economies and social structures are propped up by assumptions that continual 'growth' can always be achieved, and by extraordinary consumption of non-renewable energy sources and their by-products. there are already clear signs that those resources won't continue to be available into the future, and we currently have no viable renewable resources we could use instead. Not on a scale which would maintain our current way of life, anyway.

No, Virginia, there may not be a Santa Claus. It might be best if you don't just keep on playing with that iPod, looking up stuff on Google, and pretending that you're knowledgeable. You might end up in trouble a ways down the track! Alarmist? I don't think so. I'm well into my sixth decade of life and I don't even make assuptions about what is going to persist during my own lifetime. Goodness knows what the world my grandkids bring their own kids into will be like. And they're already hitting their teens!

Passing exams and demonstrating that you "know stuff" is just that. It isn't (or shouldn't be) an exercise in simply demonstrating that you can dig answers up from somewhere.
 
Waveforme said:
Ah yes, another fine example or our school system. It's pretty obvious we need some sort of reform.

We do not need MORE teachers, just more QUALIIFED and caring teachers. And as for "throwing work at you", a teacher gives the lesson... YOU have to do the work on your own from there.

What does common sense have to do with schoolwork ?

Enjoy your childhood because when you grow up then you'll realize how much freedom you have lost and how much responsiblity you've gained.
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I have to disagree with you on one point. We do need more teachers. Thirty kids in a classroom makes teaching and learning far more difficult than you might think. There is little to NO opportunity for one on one interaction, which some kids desperately need. Our entire educational system needs an overhaul and class size is one of those things that needs to be fixed. That will require more teachers... It would be nice if they were more qualified. As for caring, most of the people I know who are teachers are caring people. They would not be teaching otherwise. They certainly didn't get into the profession for money, at least not in my state where starting teacher salary is about twenty five thousand per year.
The biggest problem faced by our education system today is parental support. The major difference between the kids in an honors class and the kids in a tech. prep class is that the honors kids, with few exceptions, come from families who care. They have parents who show up and actually EXPECT their kids to accomplish something. Other parents seem to expect the school system to raise their children for them. Teachers are not babysitters.
 
Elstaf said:
I have to disagree with you on one point. We do need more teachers. Thirty kids in a classroom makes teaching and learning far more difficult than you might think. There is little to NO opportunity for one on one interaction, which some kids desperately need. Our entire educational system needs an overhaul and class size is one of those things that needs to be fixed. That will require more teachers... It would be nice if they were more qualified. As for caring, most of the people I know who are teachers are caring people. They would not be teaching otherwise. They certainly didn't get into the profession for money, at least not in my state where starting teacher salary is about twenty five thousand per year.
The biggest problem faced by our education system today is parental support. The major difference between the kids in an honors class and the kids in a tech. prep class is that the honors kids, with few exceptions, come from families who care. They have parents who show up and actually EXPECT their kids to accomplish something. Other parents seem to expect the school system to raise their children for them. Teachers are not babysitters.
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Also, it's hard to care when you're getting 29K a year to baby sit 45 kids who would rather sit @ playstation than learn something.
 
Kids should be given the bare essentials for tests. As an engineer / designer I have seen the result of allowing kids to use devices which make tests and work trivial. Ask a student to hand draft and they have no clue what they are doing. They become almost useless when you take them to the plant to have them develop some preliminary design with input from the workers.
 
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