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Auzentech XMeridian is finally out!
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alg7_munif
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Moofasa~ said:
Yes it is a lossless compression, compression needs more processing but DVD audio is not compressed. BTW in the review from Club Overclocker, the X-Meridian compress an uncompressed sound but it still sounds good.
DVD-Audio is also compressed using Meridian Losless Packing (MLP) from which Dolby TrueHD evolved. It also limits to 24/192 for stereo and 24/96 for surround, that is why some cards with license for MLP playback abide by those limits.
Both schemes are bit-perfect compression, what you encode is what you decode. A scheme can be considered mathemathically losless if the decoded signal is the same waveform with a non-predetermined gain applied.
Both schemes are bit-perfect compression, what you encode is what you decode. A scheme can be considered mathemathically losless if the decoded signal is the same waveform with a non-predetermined gain applied.
alg7_munif said:
As the poster after you stated though, DVD-Audio via MLP is Compressed. The link gave an example of comparing to Zip or etc.. since nothing is lost. What goes in, is what comes out. Hotel California is a another good DVD-Audio disc.
alg7_munif
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HSE said:
Sorry my bad, after reading this and I found out that the 24bit/96kHz 6-channel uncompressed format exceeds the allowable bandwidth of DVD specification.
Anyway can someone that has a X-Fi and Rightmark Audio Analyzer 5.5 check for me the supported sound card mode for X-Fi and post it like I did here with my X-Meridian. I suspect that the sound chip on X-Fi can't even do 24bit/192kHz playback in stereo. Donnie27 said that the X-Fi came with a MLP chip, maybe the 24bit/192kHz stereo playback advertised on the X-Fi is not from creative's sound chip itself but from the MLP chip. If you look at Donnie27's post in page 13, 192kHz ASIO output is also not supported.
Donnie27 said:
alg7_munif said:
I'll download it later, but I'll answer your question.
The X-Fi does not have 192kHz support through it's ASIO drivers because it would cut in the market of Creative's EMU line (which does support it, Creative has specifically mentioned that anyone interested in 192kHz support in ASIO should look at their EMU line; basically another way Creative can make money off you). The card itself supports it, just not through its ASIO drivers (perhaps Creative will change their mind in future drivers? I doubt it though).
alg7_munif
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Moofasa~ said:
Please download it and post it, I just can't believe anything that Creative said about sample rate as Creative has been sued before.
alg7_munif said:
Well it works, as I have listened to many 192kHz stereo DVD-Audio discs, but it will not work through ASIO (basically any other output will work). I can download it, but it will say it's not supported through ASIO, because it isn't. It's not advertised to have 192kHz support through ASIO, so I would not expect it to work. It does have 192kHz support though.
ASIO support for 192kHz is almost entirely pointless unless you're doing serious recording and/or audio editing, so it's nothing to be concerned about. Odds are, very few will try to do any serious recording with an X-Fi, and fewer still will be concerned about recording at 24/192kHz, which is a hefty hard drive killer (32 megs/minute mono if I'm not mistaken).
Even if that were the case, the only source of commercially available music at that resolution is DVD-Audio (and still 24/192 discs are rare), and being able to listen them in full resolution beats having "true 24/192" with no content to playback.
As a personal comment, I find more appealing properly mixed 24/96 surround than 24/192 stereo. My only disc with a 24/192 track is Hotel California, and while it is possible to discern more detail when listening with headphones (I'd call it "surgically clean audio"), in the surround version of Hotel Califiornia it really comes to life, the guitars engage in a "conversation" that is hard to describe, you have to listen to it.
alg7_munif
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Moofasa~ said:
The test is not only for ASIO but also for MME and directsound driver. I just want to know the real capability of creative's sound chip. I know that there is still not many source available but I just want to know if the sound chip itself really can handle 24bit/192kHz playback in Stereo or not. If it can't then the sound chip is not as great as I thought.
alg7_munif said:
Please note, that test was done in Game Mode. As I said in that Post "Features are turned off and on as the modes change". I can tell you though, 24bit/192kHz stereo (Recording) is NOT supported. Not because of the MLP Chip that has support for 24bit/192kHz stereo but the Wolfson ADC's don't. Again, I linked to Creative saying that themselves.
alg7_munif
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Donnie27 said:
Can you post a screen shot or just post the mode supported by the sound chip like I did? I just want to know which sample rates are really supported by the "great" gaming sound chip, that's all.
alg7_munif said:
I'll give it a shot this evening
Repost!
There is a 24bit-192KHz option that even my Pioneer VSX-D711 can't playback since its DACs are limited to 96KHz LOL! Another reason I'm looking at Harmon Kardon 7.1! Yet, not for 7.1 but 24bit-192KHz Stereo.
does it has a 24/192 stereo track? how does it fare against the surround mix?
My point is that sky-high sampling rates are not really necessary to enjoy advanced resolution music. The critical part is the mastering process, otherwise supporting those sample formats (in the hardware or in the content) becomes just a bulletpoint feature.
Even a properly mastered 24/48 MLP track sounds better than its AC3/DTS compressed counterpart and definitely better than a CD track upsampled at 24/192.
Agreed. One excellent case in point is NIN's With_Teeth DVD-Audio disc, mastered by Tom Baker. Stereo playback is at 24/96, but it's still a horrid recording. No audio format in the world can make that album sound good, so the DVD-Audio stereo mix is entirely pointless.
I do believe you're over-emphasizing the importance of the sampling rate, just as DAC quality is typically over-emphasized here. Doubling the maximum sampling rate is all well and good, but there's no logic in doing so if there will be no change in the overall experience. If the change is inaudible, the investment is the wrong one.
Even at 48kHz, quantization is inaudible. We use high sampling rates in the professional world because information degrades less quickly as we modify it (especially with time compression/expansion) if more information exists in the original data stream, not because the difference between 48kHz and 96kHz is audible. In the audio post environment, we typically record, work with and finalize at 48kHz.
DVD-Audio playback is analog only, so what's the point?Donnie27 said:
I do believe you're over-emphasizing the importance of the sampling rate, just as DAC quality is typically over-emphasized here. Doubling the maximum sampling rate is all well and good, but there's no logic in doing so if there will be no change in the overall experience. If the change is inaudible, the investment is the wrong one.
Even at 48kHz, quantization is inaudible. We use high sampling rates in the professional world because information degrades less quickly as we modify it (especially with time compression/expansion) if more information exists in the original data stream, not because the difference between 48kHz and 96kHz is audible. In the audio post environment, we typically record, work with and finalize at 48kHz.
phide said:
Most DVD and DTS Audio disks ship with more than one format. Some Ship with as many as 3, so what's your point? 24-96 Stereo is better than 24-44 or 48. The difference can be heard even on my Cheap Pioneer Receiver. Now I'm not sure if your Higher Equipment is fooling you, both down here with us mere mortals, that's not the case.
alg7_munif said:
960K
DVD Audio Player
My home made 2ch 24bit-96KHz Wave files do play via SPDIF BTW
All almost all commercial SPDIF is DRM Blocked otherwise. Some guys use AC3 filters to get around some of the blocks though.alg7_munif
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Donnie27,
Will you post the RMAA result or not? BTW, 192/24 SPDIF PCM output is not a problem with my X-Meridian. They also said that I can get 8-channel PCM 192/24 output with the X-Tension board...
Will you post the RMAA result or not? BTW, 192/24 SPDIF PCM output is not a problem with my X-Meridian. They also said that I can get 8-channel PCM 192/24 output with the X-Tension board...
alg7_munif said:
But what 192/24 material is there that isn't DRM protected (meaning can't be played over SPDIF)?
I told you already that RMAA tests only shows what ASIO sample rate is supported, and the X-Fi does not support 192/24 over ASIO. This RMAA test isn't going to help here.
But the X-Fi can play 192/24, period. I am not sure what you don't get here.
[EDIT]
Here:
alg7_munif
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Thanks for the post, why didn't you post it earlier? Afraid of something or what? I just want to know the real capabilities of the chip.
alg7_munif said:
Because I don't like to install things on my computer that I don't need. Installing and uninstalling is a waste of my time. I don't see why I had to run these tests for you when I gave you the answer several prior posts. Creative wasn't trying to hide anything, they made it very clear that 192kHz was not support with ASIO.
I haven't seen any DVDs that ship with content exceeding 24/48. I suppose my question is: what content do you have that you want to output at 24/192 via S/PDIF into the HK with 24/192-capable converters?Donnie27 said:
I've never debated the fact that 96kHz is superior to lower sampling rates. My debate resides with the fact that the differences are essentially inaudible. If you find that there is an audible difference, that's great, but that doesn't necessarily mean that your mind is not simply deciding that there is an appreciable difference (if the content you're playing back isn't already fundamentally different besides the sampling rate). Like I said, quantization at 48kHz is primarily inaudible when played back at real time. Higher sampling rates are useful for:Donnie27 said:
- Higher Nyquist cutoff (rolloff) frequency. This allows the content of the audio to exceed ~23-23.5kHz (48kHz SR). Frequencies higher than 20kHz are essentially inaudible (if you're 18 or older, assume that 17-18kHz are the absolute maximum frequencies that fall above your threshold of hearing), and room interactions from these reproduced frequencies are generally lacking in audibility, as audio waves with frequencies beyond 20kHz are highly sensitive to obstructions and will generally lose most energy instantly upon encountering an obstruction.
- More information per second leading to less destructive editing/modification. Time compression and time expansion are generally the two processes that benefit most from higher sampling rates, but other time-based effects and pitch correction (AutoTune, for example) also benefit.
And no, the higher-end equipment I've monitored on hasn't fooled me. From Genelecs to Yamahas to Blue Skys, I've never noted any fundamental audible differences between 48kHz and 96kHz and beyond. The differences in sampling rates really just lead to less destructive time-based editing. I suppose higher sampling rates may also lead to less ear fatigue, but that doesn't have much bearing on audio quality.
phide said:
Nearly all DVD Audio use a Dolby Digital or DTS (DVD Video) fallback for normal DVD players.
DTS and Dolby Digital use 48kHz (44,1kHz), 16Bit sources for compressing.
The one and only way to play DVD Audio at full quality on the PC is the Creative DVD Audio player. All other solutions (PC DVD Player Software) use a downsampling by the MLP processing.
phide said:
Last things first, yes they do. My ear heard differences and many times it was the source material. Then I didn't think I was debating you on anything
I never said XMeridian wasn't good for Music Playback, I just said it wasn't the best for Games. That was the only Point I EVER tried to make to alg7_munif and Dion. With Games sometimes Quality = muffled sounds with different kinds of Echos. Crystal Clear = bad in that case.I asked the respected member here, Mister X, about 24-192 and 24-96 compat receivers and checked out a few myself. Two of my favorites are the 245 and 240 H/K.
HARMAN/KARDON 7.1 A/V Receiver
Model AVR240
7 x 50W
7.1-channel A/V receiver
7 channels of high-current amplification
Logic 7(R) processing
192 KHz/24-bit digital converters
2 high-bandwidth component video inputs
Compatibility with The Bridge
2-line front-panel display
I saw them for $345 to $400 for the 245 and about $60 less for the 240. Waste money, no. I'd rather buy a Set top unit for music and not bother with a Computer for that at all. Mainly because it just sounds better than my Pioneer VSX-D711 and I want to expand to 7.1 or 6.1 for games. Then finally hear that 2Ch 192KHz.
Now for the DVD and DTS. My few discs are more DVD-Audio than DTS. Most have alternate tracks that range from 2Ch CD-A to 2Ch 192bit. I know because I have the Hotel California and it ships with Normal DVD Audio and 2Ch 192KHz. That's a screen shot of mine at that setting. The DVD-A track is 24bit-96KHz surround, not 48KHz. I have seen some that are 48KHz so I don't doubt you.
Example
Is DVD-A really better?
I noticed the same thing
Too bad I don't have my Bud's Denon though. Some music/material is reproduced and some are re-mastered from Tape. Note, my roommate's Akai 747 Reel to Reel could do 125db.Really anything that Harman Kardon makes is good in my book, especially considering their power rating policies (fantastic!), their good looks and their price points. I do think, however, that you need to be cautious concerning specifications and capabilities, especially concerning sampling rates. When you get a chance to A/B some 96kHz and 192kHz stuff, definitely let me know what you think.Donnie27 said:
phide said:
Thanks for your concern but I mainly want this one for the improved sound image. 7.1 and etc...... If it were just 192KHz alone, I doubt I'd bother. If and when I do get it, I will post my views here.
I'm also looking at the b-Enspire for my Home Theater Computer downstairs in my Den. I rarely game, will not have money left after a Bass Guitar and H/K purchase, Tires for the truck and Van etc...........
I have two Super Saturated DVD-Stereo DVDs with a 96khz sampling rate. The content is not protected whatsoever -it's in the Video_TS folder and it's about 5gb- and it can be played easily. Unluckily, I haven an old nforce2 board and the 96khz material is downsampled to 48khz and then sent over to the HK receiver via the SPDIF output. It sounds great, but I guess it would sound better if I could send the pure 96khz signal. Is that possible?
My HK is an old AVR3000. Would it handle that sample?
My HK is an old AVR3000. Would it handle that sample?
alg7_munif
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The CMI Oxygen HD chip on the X-Meridian can send up to 192KHz/24Bit sample through the SPDIF but it really depends on the DVD-Audio player software, whether it will be blocked or not. Another way to get around this is by not selecting the SPDIF output in the player but instead stereo speaker, the card will still send a digital PCM output together with analogue and you can still set the card's SPDIF output to 44.1/48/96/192KHz.
the Super Saturated DVD-Stereo DVDs are not DVD-A, you don't need special software to play them.
as to DVD-A, PowerDVD can play license-free material. If you have ripped a DVD-A to your hard-drive, then PowerDVD can play it and you can send the signal over SPIDF or stereo or 5.1, but I don't want to buy a new soundcard if I'm not a 100% sure it will be able to send the license-free 192khz material over SPDIF to the external receiver...
as to DVD-A, PowerDVD can play license-free material. If you have ripped a DVD-A to your hard-drive, then PowerDVD can play it and you can send the signal over SPIDF or stereo or 5.1, but I don't want to buy a new soundcard if I'm not a 100% sure it will be able to send the license-free 192khz material over SPDIF to the external receiver...
cirerita said:
Power DVD 6 Deluxe can play DVD-A (on ANY COMPUTER 5 years old or newer) and is NOT blocked by DRM on the system/Analog. I'm not sure about the output through SPDIF because most stuff unhacked on the X-Fi will only out put in Two Ch. Yes, it will do 2 Ch 96kHz through SPDIF, just not 5.1. I can't tell if 192KHz 2 Ch will work since my receiver is limited to 96KHz 2 Ch and what sounds like 48bit Pro Logic 5.1.
Are you sure it can play in 'Advanced Resolution' without crippling the signal? I can't recall the version number but PowerDVD downsampled and then upsampled MLP tracks, this was noticeable in subtle sounds like musicians changing the page or taking breath for wind instruments.
HSE said:
Yes, it does. But please keep in mind, Advanced or the Highest setting aren't the norm. Power DVD 6 Deluxe played and my X-Fi recorded the standard DVD-A 24-96 (24bit-96KHz). For me and IMHO only, I like Hi-2 Channel more than 5.1 at any smaple rate.
alg7_munif
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Donnie27 said:
With my Z-5400(only support up to 96/24), if I set my card to output 192KHz through spdif, I will hear a very faint sound with lots of cracking and poping.
alg7_munif
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192KHz is the sample rate of the digital signal, when using analogue, the receiver will just amplify the analogue signal, the D-A conversion is already done by the sound card.
Donnie27 said:
"Not all DVD-A Discs are Created Equal
We purchased and examined a fairly good sampling of DVD-A discs. We were quite dismayed to find that DVD-A discs can have built-in copy protection that forces a DVD-A player into a low-resolution down-sampling mode at the digital outputs. When the copy protection is activated, 16-bit, 48-kHz output is usually what results when playing 24-96, or 24-192 kHz material. This disc creation option was provided in response to the music industries demand to prohibit the unauthorized copying and sharing of a DVD-A disc - at its full resolution. Unfortunately, the producers of most DVD-A discs that we examined have chosen to exercise this option.
This is a genuine oxymoron. It seems to me that those who love high-resolution audio and have the means to purchase the requisite equipment (and may I say, support the purchase of DVD-A discs) will never take the time to make a copy of a disc, much less make a miserable MP3 file to share with their buddies. People that want the finest in high-resolution audio are not the ones the music industry needs to fear. We believe this demographic misunderstanding is something the marketing executives at the major record labels must get their minds around. As things stand, they are definitely hurting the best opportunity for "the ultimate" in consumer listening yet to come along."
The Creative MLP Codecs for Audigy 2/4 Pro and X-Fi are the only one with full resolution playback for copy protection content on the pc (only analog, this codec deactivated the digital output).
Perhaps does PowerDVD use the Creative codec(if available)? WinDVD make it so.
ok, I get it, SPDIF can't send protected 192khz signals to the receiver, you need to use the analogue output. But as I pointed out, I have 3 DVD-A (and no DVD-A player) and I have managed to rip them to the harddrive and remove the protection. I could convert them to .wav or .dts or whatever, that shouldn't be a problem. But what I wanted to know is whether SPDIF could actually send the drm-free 192khz tracks I have in my hard drive. Yes, I'm talking about sending the non-protected 192khz material from a DVD-A via the SPDIF -not analogue- to an external receiver. Would it be feasible? Would PowerDVD downsample it even if it's unprotected material?
Has anyone actually tried something like this? If not, I'm willing to send a copy of my unprotected tracks to whoever is willing to run the test...
Has anyone actually tried something like this? If not, I'm willing to send a copy of my unprotected tracks to whoever is willing to run the test...
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