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ATI's Official Response To Pre-released benchmarks

L

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[H]ard|Gawd
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Jan 19, 2002
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My good Rage3d buddy oozz77 posted this, and I thought the recent "leaked" benchmarks were bullsh!t too. I mean there is no way the brand new next generation technology would be slower than a 7800GTX, that would kill ATI ?

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33829134

""" Traditionally, I don't post in this forum.

Although I have massive respect for the work that goes on with Beyond3D - I always feel that the forum is best left to enthusiasts in the general public as well as the hardcore technologists from ATI and other organisations.

However, the ‘Hardware Analysis thread’ brought up several issues that I am not about to ignore and I want to set the record straight.




The Figures
When considering the performance of our next-generation products, you need to ask yourself one very simple question:

"Would ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe’s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"

Sander claims that these numbers were given to him by a trusted source.

The numbers shown do not match any pattern that we have for our next generation products.
 
Did *anybody* believe those were legit, though? I mean, seriously, with all the sour grapes aired in the intro to the article, too!

EDIT: Do please read the link posted in the OP. NOT THE FULL ARTICLE WAS QUOTED ABOVE! There is *lots* of good stuff there!
 
That was a very entertaining read indeed. Can't wait for the real results from this tech day :cool:

Sanders = Owned :p
 
/grabs popcorn

fun reading

can't wait to see ATI's next gen in action, it's makin me horny baby
 
dderidex said:
Did *anybody* believe those were legit, though? I mean, seriously, with all the sour grapes aired in the intro to the article, too!

EDIT: Do please read the link posted in the OP. NOT THE FULL ARTICLE WAS QUOTED ABOVE! There is *lots* of good stuff there!
Click to expand...

can I please have a link to the full article
 
Brent_Justice said:
/grabs popcorn

fun reading

can't wait to see ATI's next gen in action, it's makin me horny baby
Click to expand...

yeah no kidding...enough bashing...I'm ready to be excited about stuff again...I can't wait to see what R520 brings to the table...:)
 
if those benchies were true and still legit when the r520, I might go with the nvidia 7800 gtx. The waiting game continues.
 
I think it's kind of funny the way in the inquirers original report on the benchmarks they are all "This is in line with our information", but in the report on ATIs "Dudes, nobody has these cards but us, the benchmarks ARE fake" response they make no comment.

Oooh, hang on, it looks like they might have subtly ninja edited the end of the original article since I first read it to make it sound a little less like they were sure the numbers were right.

Sneaky.

I don't care, I've already paid for my GTX, but I hope for the ongoing health of the market the r520 at least matches it, and can sell enough that we don't end up with a monopoly.
 
blah. I still don't think that it makes business sense to delay something so long until you can beat the competition by 15% or w/e you guys expect. They had problems, so they probably fxed them as fast as they could. I would think that that means they will just barely surpass the GTX. It's hard to say this the way I want, to but what I think is that they want it out as soon as possible but better than a GTX, so the moment they passed the GTX in sufficient volume, they sent em off for production. That's what I'd do.
 
I'm relieved that ATI has finally made an official response. Initially I thought the R520 was crap based on the suppose leaked benchmarks. As a result of Andrejz's response, I am now more optimistic that the wait may be worth it after all.
 
Sgt_Strider said:
Initially I thought the R520 was crap based on the suppose leaked benchmarks.
Click to expand...

Maybe you shouldn't have let un-official leaked benchmarks (not even personally ran by the guy who leaked them) sway your opinion on the card?
 
Although, it's not like ATI would say "Yep our card sucks, those benchmarks are accurate"

Would ATI seriously bring 100 of Europe’s top press to a Technology Day where they can run whatever benchmarks they choose if we thought that we were going to lose?"
Click to expand...

Do they get to run benchmarks on cards they bought retail, using their own machines with released drivers? Doubtful.

I will wait for results from a RETAIL card, someday.
 
well, with the current wait game... even if ATI surpasses the 7800GTX by a considerable margin. Nvidia has had time to either tape out a 90nm part, or retape out for better clocks, or build up a stock pile of cherry picked cards with the current process that passed at very fast clocks. Either way they could have some very FAST cards at say 500-600Mhz with more pipes, etc.

or maybe even have a totally different card ready. (more pipes or different architecture/next gen)

Either way the momentum is now on Nvidia's side for a while I think.
 
chrisf6969 said:
well, with the current wait game... even if ATI surpasses the 7800GTX by a considerable margin. Nvidia has had time to either tape out a 90nm part, or retape out for better clocks, or build up a stock pile of cherry picked cards with the current process that passed at very fast clocks. Either way they could have some very FAST cards at say 500-600Mhz with more pipes, etc.

or maybe even have a totally different card ready. (more pipes or different architecture/next gen)

Either way the momentum is now on Nvidia's side for a while I think.
Click to expand...

well I think the big thing is nvidia has so many of them...that they can afford to sell them much cheaper...so ATi will have to lower prices to compete...which means lower margins...which may lead to them making fewer cards and focusing on more profitable sectors to help their stock...which may lead to shortages...

I can't help but think ATi will be having availability problems again this fall...
 
PRIME1 said:
Although, it's not like ATI would say "Yep our card sucks, those benchmarks are accurate"



Do they get to run benchmarks on cards they bought retail, using their own machines with released drivers? Doubtful.

I will wait for results from a RETAIL card, someday.
Click to expand...


I think you are being a bit confused here. Overclocking results you want to wait on a retail sample, but simple benchmarks of something at stock speed wont be much different between different cards. Do you really think that just because a card might be an engineering sample that somehow it has "superpipes" or something that will make it run faster than a retail card?
 
chrisf6969 said:
well, with the current wait game... even if ATI surpasses the 7800GTX by a considerable margin. Nvidia has had time to either tape out a 90nm part, or retape out for better clocks, or build up a stock pile of cherry picked cards with the current process that passed at very fast clocks. Either way they could have some very FAST cards at say 500-600Mhz with more pipes, etc.

or maybe even have a totally different card ready. (more pipes or different architecture/next gen)

Either way the momentum is now on Nvidia's side for a while I think.
Click to expand...

The man speaks the truth. Nvidia is well known to do that. Change the number to a 7850 Ultra or some crap lol. When I first saw the 7800 GT/GTX come out, I immediatly knew that the cards were just something for now until they released a bigger & better card of the same series. Its just like nvidia to do so.

-DarkLegacy
 
DarkLegacy said:
The man speaks the truth. Nvidia is well known to do that. Change the number to a 7850 Ultra or some crap lol. When I first saw the 7800 GT/GTX come out, I immediatly knew that the cards were just something for now until they released a bigger & better card of the same series. Its just like nvidia to do so.

-DarkLegacy
Click to expand...

I think they like to keep their options open...rumor currently is that they don't feel the need to release a new card to compete with R520...my guess is that they're happy with the GTX being a little slower knowing that their margins will be much better than ATi's on the R520 (kinda like the situation with the 6800Ultra, they could have released a faster version but didn't bother) -OR- they figure by the time ATi has R520 actually on store shelves, they'll be ready to launch the 90nm version of G70...running at 600Mhz or so...
 
chrisf6969 said:
well, with the current wait game... even if ATI surpasses the 7800GTX by a considerable margin. Nvidia has had time to either tape out a 90nm part, or retape out for better clocks, or build up a stock pile of cherry picked cards with the current process that passed at very fast clocks. Either way they could have some very FAST cards at say 500-600Mhz with more pipes, etc.

or maybe even have a totally different card ready. (more pipes or different architecture/next gen)

Either way the momentum is now on Nvidia's side for a while I think.
Click to expand...


they have their first 90nm part, C51 inegrated, 2 pipes. momentum is still very much with Nvidia, as it has been. I have no idea what you're thinking, but there is still not one card out. Paper launches and huge debacles about BS comparison charts as well as some leaked pics does not mean ATI has some how taken a magical lead. By the time supply is going at a decent amount and sales have boosted its basically going to be January. Nvidia knows this, so i wouldnt expect a stop gap if the performance isnt enough to twitch about. What may simply happen if its needed, is stock clocks may be raised to close to 500/1300 on GTX cores for a second revision. Maybe, just maybe re-named the Ultra but i would not understand why. I'd think they'd want to keep sales on the GTX maximized as much as possible. Pipe numbers will undoubtebly stay the same, and they will continue toward another early hard launch next year. I think ATI in turn see's this coming which is why the R580 is looming already.

I also think both Nvidia and ATI plan to maximize sales on the Vista launch and fully DX10 compliant parts, i think they see that as a huge opertunity both in OEM Vista ready computer sales and to enthusiasts, so we may just see 2 hard launches in one year from both companies which is very exciting. And if thats coming, i really see little reason to sit here twiddling your thumbs for some magic G70. If anything great should happen it will be early next year in another product line up, problably going to be only to replace the top 3 tier cards as well, same as i see the R580 doing. While i see the yet released medium/low end parts continuing unchanged basically from their G7X/R5XX derivatives until the fully DX10 parts are released.

Nvidia simply will not waste resources if they're not needed or wanted, and right now that is the case. GTX is selling great, in quantity, ATI needs to release a part and then we'll go from there. The GTX does perform great already as well, so keep that in mind, if Nvidia is going to try to improve anything it may be to go against technologies ATI has developed, like AA+HDR, and that will not happen until a core revision is up. Although i do think the G70 has some tricks Nvidia can work out in drivers. So your best case is a higher clocked card and thats it.
 
Shifra said:
they have their first 90nm part, C51 inegrated, 2 pipes. momentum is still very much with Nvidia, as it has been. I have no idea what you're thinking, but there is still not one card out. Paper launches and huge debacles about BS comparison charts as well as some leaked pics does not mean ATI has some how taken a magical lead. By the time supply is going at a decent amount and sales have boosted its basically going to be January. Nvidia knows this, so i wouldnt expect a stop gap if the performance isnt enough to twitch about. What may simply happen if its needed, is stock clocks may be raised to close to 500/1300 on GTX cores for a second revision. Maybe, just maybe re-named the Ultra but i would not understand why. I'd think they'd want to keep sales on the GTX maximized as much as possible. Pipe numbers will undoubtebly stay the same, and they will continue toward another early hard launch next year. I think ATI in turn see's this coming which is why the R580 is looming already.

I also think both Nvidia and ATI plan to maximize sales on the Vista launch and fully DX10 compliant parts, i think they see that as a huge opertunity both in OEM Vista ready computer sales and to enthusiasts, so we may just see 2 hard launches in one year from both companies which is very exciting. And if thats coming, i really see little reason to sit here twiddling your thumbs for some magic G70. If anything great should happen it will be early next year in another product line up, problably going to be only to replace the top 3 tier cards as well, same as i see the R580 doing. While i see the yet released medium/low end parts continuing unchanged basically from their G7X/R5XX derivatives until the fully DX10 parts are released.

Nvidia simply will not waste resources if they're not needed or wanted, and right now that is the case. GTX is selling great, in quantity, ATI needs to release a part and then we'll go from there. The GTX does perform great already as well, so keep that in mind, if Nvidia is going to try to improve anything it may be to go against technologies ATI has developed, like AA+HDR, and that will not happen until a core revision is up. Although i do think the G70 has some tricks Nvidia can work out in drivers. So your best case is a higher clocked card and thats it.
Click to expand...


There is a very good chance they will have a refresh for the g70's around January if the r520 line competes performance wise around the g70's. After the marginally lose of the gf6 line for the speed crown I have talked to a few people and nV all of them said they won't give ATi another chance to beat them, of course they also stated they know ATi has every chance to outperform them, but they themselves if at all possible will not let ATi regain the speed crown.
 
Brent_Justice said:
Maybe you shouldn't have let un-official leaked benchmarks (not even personally ran by the guy who leaked them) sway your opinion on the card?
Click to expand...

Any hints as to when we will see an official [H]ard review so it can sway my views? :D
 
you guys forget that nVidia just won back the speed crrown with the 7800GTX, but for the last 6months before ATI had the speed crown with the X850XTpe, well next month ATI will just reclaim the top spot again like before and nVidia will have the slower card :)

But come early next year nVidia will be back again on top with the 7900Ultra, but lose later that spring to ATI again with their R580

annd the game keeps going back and forth, which is perfect for us the customer = faster cards every 6months with games getting nicer
 
I think ATI won most Direct X benchmarks and Nvidia beat the shit outta ATI in Doom 3 and Chronicles Of Riddick.
 
Very interesting reading - in any case, any speculation should be taken with a pinch of salt until the actual product is released.

But ATi are going to have a hard time competing on price and volume, and there is still a huge question mark regarding the implementation of Crossfire.

I say nVidia will take the crown yet again this time - if not in outright performance terms (though as an NV user I'd be dissapointed if the margin by which the R520 out performs the 7800GTX, if indeed it does, is significant), then definitely in accessibility and a solid user base.
 
It will be pretty obvious when the official benchmarks come out whether ATI bumped the clocks from Sander's article or not. If his source just pulled those numbers out of thin air, the benchmarks will show it.
 
Why would ATI need an outsiders article to tell them what clocks they need in order to beat the GTX? To think the article will have a bearing on the cards clock speeds, rather than ATI's own research (apparently they also have access GTX's) is ridiculously silly.
 
You know, you can stop whacking off to what MIGHT be the R520 and just wait and have full contact with the card itself when it is released...it's not that long.
 
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