ATI series dilemma

[Occidio]

I am trying to wrap my head around something.
I currently have a 5870 in my main machine right now that I picked awhile ago. I was thinking of picking up something like a 7850 2gig due to reading some articles on tomshardware.
I decided to do some comparisons on AMD's website. Other than the PCIe bus capability being higher on the 7850, I did not see to many other things that "looked" better on the 7850 compared to my 5870. Sometimes ATI's series numbers confuse me for some reason.
I currently have this card. newegg link
I was thinking of this one. 7850 newegg link

According to specs, other than memory and pcie bus speed, it would be pointless for to upgrade. Did I just get a better card that I thought I did a couple years ago or am I really missing something?
Can someone fill me in on the what the series numbers mean? I think the 70 in 5870 mean something specific, I just don't know what. At least that is what I thought I read something about a long time ago but have forgotten about now.


*edit, ok, I did not know you could not link straight to newegg anymore on Hardforum so it looks like it will link to amazon instead, sorry for any confusion.

 

[Yakk]

The 5870 is a venerable card, especially overclocked. The 58xx series back then were flagship models equal to 79xx series now. It is underestimated most of the time because like the 7xxx series, the drivers gave the card a huge performance boost late in it's life cycle, which do not appear in most reviews, and comparison charts like anand's. It sits roughly between a 6950 & 6970 depending on overclock. My 1GHz overclock pushes it on par to a bit faster than a stock 6970. (yes it's been running that oc for years, great reference design on this card)

An "upgrade" to a 7850 would give you a performance boost, but not a very big one, also add the extra 1GB.

I would not upgrade yet, or at least to a 7950 minimum.

 

[Occidio]

Cool, thanks for the info Yakk. You have a resource link for overclocking this card? Kind of curious what it can be capable of.

 

[Schro]

It is very difficult to use the model numbers to compare performance across generations. In short, the current naming scheme follows this format:

XYZZ

where (and keep in mind, i'm making these up based on observation)-

X = Main generation
Y = Target Market Band (usually coincides with core used)
ZZ = Relative performance within the target market band

Target markets would something like performance (Y=9=Tahiti), mainstream gaming (Y=8=Piticarn), budget gaming (Y=7). So, a 7970 will perform faster than a 7950. However, a 7950 and 7870 may or may not have a set performance relationship... it can be a bit confusing (i'm getting confused writing this).

As for the actual card you're looking at getting, that 7850 is extremely overpriced for what you get. If you were spending $150, it might be worthwhile, but if your budget is in the low $200 range, the best optoin for you right now would be a Tahiti based 7870 (which is a bit of an oddball as it defies the "rules" i stated above). A review can be found here - http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/01/01/powercolor_radeon_hd_7870_myst_edition_review/

I haven't done back to back comparisons (but probably should), but the 7870 is roughly 20% faster than the 5870 and the 7850 is roughly equal (but has more vram, which will help in vram limited scenarios).

 

[Schro]

Cool, thanks for the info Yakk. You have a resource link for overclocking this card? Kind of curious what it can be capable of.

We include overclocking summaries and performance comparisons in each of our evaluations. However, I would not suggest buying a card based on "expected" overclock, as such overclockibility is NOT assured - it is possible you'll get a card that will give you an extra 2 MHz, but also possible it'll give you 300MHz...

 

[cannondale06]

you would need a 7950 for a real upgrade. you are going to need a cpu upgrade though as any real gpu upgrade would be very underutilized with your Athlon cpu.

 

[Occidio]

I found a couple links talking about the ATI overdrive and I will play with those tonight. I appreciate all the input. I think I am going to stay with what I got until I upgrade the other parts like proc and mobo.

 

[schmuckley]

idk..the more vram helps..but..To me it seems textures are richer with 5870>newer cards
(unless 7950/70)

 

[Eureka!]

I found a couple links talking about the ATI overdrive and I will play with those tonight. I appreciate all the input. I think I am going to stay with what I got until I upgrade the other parts like proc and mobo.

Easy way, use a few testing benchmarks like Unigine Heaven and OCCT. Go into the Catalyst Control Panel, turn up power delivery to 20% (I don't remember if you could in CCP, if not use a tool like Sapphire TriXX). Then boost the GPU Core Clock by about 25 or 50 MHz steps. Run Heaven and OCCT for around 5 minutes, just to be sure you don't see any artifacts (Heaven is kind of buggy even at stock, so you'll need to memorize where the bugs are and what are real artifacts). Once you start seeing artifacts, lower the core speed a step, run it again and make sure you don't see any issues. Repeat with the memory clock.

If you overclock the CPU, you'll be fine for a long while still. The 5870 was a good card and the processor is decent too. If you're gaming at 1080p or less, you'll be fine with 1gb for a while longer. At 1080p, 1gb is cutting it close with newer games, but you'll be able to scrape by as long as you don't overdo it with AA or graphical mods.

 

[Schro]

Easy way, use a few testing benchmarks like Unigine Heaven and OCCT. Go into the Catalyst Control Panel, turn up power delivery to 20% (I don't remember if you could in CCP, if not use a tool like Sapphire TriXX). Then boost the GPU Core Clock by about 25 or 50 MHz steps. Run Heaven and OCCT for around 5 minutes, just to be sure you don't see any artifacts (Heaven is kind of buggy even at stock, so you'll need to memorize where the bugs are and what are real artifacts). Once you start seeing artifacts, lower the core speed a step, run it again and make sure you don't see any issues. Repeat with the memory clock.

If you overclock the CPU, you'll be fine for a long while still. The 5870 was a good card and the processor is decent too. If you're gaming at 1080p or less, you'll be fine with 1gb for a while longer. At 1080p, 1gb is cutting it close with newer games, but you'll be able to scrape by as long as you don't overdo it with AA or graphical mods.

Actually, that is a terrible way to test a GPU overclock. Heaven and OCCT are synthetic users of the GPU and do not use them like games do. They will use the GPU in a way when overclocked that is out of spec that can potentially bork the card due to how it uses power. This gets reiterated in whitepapers we get as part of card launches.

The best way to test OC stability is to play a variety of games - there are a few articles that i've done where I ran through 4 out of the 5 games at the OC'ed speed just fine just to have the 5th game crash, making me go back and back down the OC so that everything is playable.

 

[cannondale06]

I use AvP benchmark then if it passes that I use Heaven and then 3DMark11.

 

[Eureka!]

Actually, that is a terrible way to test a GPU overclock. Heaven and OCCT are synthetic users of the GPU and do not use them like games do. They will use the GPU in a way when overclocked that is out of spec that can potentially bork the card due to how it uses power. This gets reiterated in whitepapers we get as part of card launches.

The best way to test OC stability is to play a variety of games - there are a few articles that i've done where I ran through 4 out of the 5 games at the OC'ed speed just fine just to have the 5th game crash, making me go back and back down the OC so that everything is playable.

The problem with playing games is that it's nowhere near as repeatable. I miss the days when most games came with an in-game benchmarknig utility. I know Heaven is particularly harsh on the card, but OCCT should be fine... it only uses up 60% of the GPU power on stock settings.

 

[Occidio]

If you overclock the CPU, you'll be fine for a long while still. The 5870 was a good card and the processor is decent too. If you're gaming at 1080p or less, you'll be fine with 1gb for a while longer. At 1080p, 1gb is cutting it close with newer games, but you'll be able to scrape by as long as you don't overdo it with AA or graphical mods.

I do not have a high end monitor for 1080p. I mostly play all my games at native 1680x1050 on my 22". I haven't ever run into any problems with vram with this setup so I should be good there. I will see about OC the CPU. I haven't done some good OC since the old days so I will have to read up on the proc.


*edit- what are some serious temps from a GPU. I was running through the overdrive and to be honest in Furmark, I did not notice much of a difference when upping the values of the card. One thing I did notice is that the automatic fan control was not bringing it much past 33% and the temp was getting into the 84C area. If I did manual fan control at 50%, it kept it around 71C.

 

[bigsnyder]

The 7850 is a very capable card for anything up to 1920x1200. It runs cool and typically quiet. I am a big fan of the MSI one, not so much of the XFX. If you are not planning on any gaming on any ultra high resolutions, then the 7850 is perfect. Anything more powerful IMO is a waste.

 

[raghu78]

if you are on a tight budget get the HD 7870 Tahiti LE. its the minimum card which can be considered a good upgrade. if you stretch a bit the HD 7950 boost is what you should get.

http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/HIS/HD_7950_X2_Boost/28.html

1920 x 1200

GTX 560 Ti - 59
HD 6950 - 63
HD 7950 iceq x2 boost - 100
HD 7970 Ghz - 115

the HD 5870 is slower than HD 6950 on average and is a GTX 560 Ti equivalent. in fact if you consider DX11 games more the HD 5870 would be slightly slower than GTX 560 Ti. HD 7950 boost would be around 65 - 70% faster at stock. with an average overclock to 1.15 ghz the HD 7950 would match HD 7970 Ghz perf and be close to twice the performance of HD 5870.

the sapphire HD 7950 boost and his hd 7950 iceq x2 boost are good options.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814202006
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814161429

the HIS HD 7950 iceq x2 boost uses a HD 7970 PCB with 8 + 6 pin power. has more power phases, powerful vrm circuitry and excellent cooling.

http://www.legionhardware.com/artic...hz_edition_7950_iceq_xsup2_boost_clock,3.html

 

[Eureka!]

Since we've agreed that the 5870 is close to a 7850, why are we still pushing for upgrades?

Secondly, don't push too far in Furmark, it's a heavy stress tester and it can blow up your video card if you're not careful. Rather, the best way to see the effects of an overclock is in a game where it's being stressed down.

That being said, generally an overclock doesn't provide you huge differences. It's only useful when say, your game is running at 24 fps and the overclock pushes it to 28, which may make the difference between playable and unplayable.

There's just no point in upgrading a 5870 unless you really need it.

 

[Occidio]

One thing I did notice was the Furmark was not really using the CPU at all and i was curious about the results I was getting. I can see now that is mostly a burn in program and to see some of the core power of just the card itself. I get very good gameplay with something like Skyrim and Borderlands 2 at native resolution with AA turned on. I have yet to really try ENB much but I am using an FXAA and that really makes the game look good.
I think for now I am happy with the 5870, I kind of wish I could find a second one to maybe crossfire it but I am going to see what I can pull off with the CPU after the new HSF comes in.
I want to say thanks again for all the input. Hearing about the 7xxx card is nice also since I have a co-worker that wants to upgrade his dinosaur and I am giving him ideas.