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ATI Comeback?
- Thread starter Nahu1337
- Start date
NKDietrich
Supreme [H]ardness
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I could speculate until I'm blue in the face but it won't make anything happen. If ATI's next stuff is better than Nvidia's next stuff, then it is, otherwise, its not. I'll wait until we see some official specs on the next stuff from both companies before I even begin to speculate about any kind of comeback.
NKDietrich
Supreme [H]ardness
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Eh they had a good run for a while there, 2 or 3 product cycles. My 9800 Pro was quite awesome for a long time. (Upgraded to a 7800 GTX).
Its less depressing if you just stop caring about who makes your stuff, as long as someone is making something you can use. I stopped being loyal to particular brands..uhh.. well, I dont think I ever was loyal to any particular brand. If someone else is better, I go there. Companies must hate me
alexgheseger
n00b
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Well, i would say ridiculously bad is a bit strong, but w/e. I see ATi coming back strong in Q2.
[speculation]
R700 Is pegged to be released May/June of this year, while GT200 will not be realesed until autumn at the earliest. Also, R700 is supposed to be roughly %50 faster than R600. ATi is also continuing their multi-GPU trend. With crossfireX, ATi is essentially forcing Nvidia to go multi GPU as well, and that is something NV's CEO does not believe in. So, ATi has at LEAST 3 months of domination, and at most 6 IMO. When GT200 comes out, drivers will have matured for crossfireX, and unless GT200 is either Quad-SLI(unlikely) or tri-sli(likely) compatible, NV has no hope of beating ATi in the next gen. It's just sheer GPU horsepower.
Also, R700 will change ATi's issue with AA, Since they are doubling the Tecturing units on R700, AA performance won't be sluggish anymore.
And that's all i can think of for now. Oh wait, the red PCB's are cooler too, and the crossfire bridges are way more awesome than the SLI bridges
.[/speculation]
forrehmmnd
[H]ard|Gawd
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damn straight
TerraPhantm
Gawd
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For ATi to come back ahead of nVidia, they really need to make a modern-day R300, something that really blows nvidia away. If they merely tie nvidia, people still won't have a compelling reason to jump ship, unless prices are drastically cheaper.
Oh wait, the red PCB's are cooler too, and the crossfire bridges are way more awesome than the SLI bridges
[/speculation]
Hell Yeah to that Man!! I think r700 is going to be what ati needs, I really would like to see them back on top, we all need that. I do have a suspicion that nvidia is going to be able to release gt200 before the fall though, I think they are trying to wait for ati next competitive product, lets hope im wrong, we need ati back on top.
The future is multiple GPUs and that's what they were going for.
I don't think they'll have an nvidia killer simply because they would rather you string 4 video cards in Crossfire, than have you buy a single powerful card. That's why nvidia hasn't come out with an 8800 GTX killer, either.
It's all about SLI and Crossfire, now.
I don't think they'll have an nvidia killer simply because they would rather you string 4 video cards in Crossfire, than have you buy a single powerful card. That's why nvidia hasn't come out with an 8800 GTX killer, either.
It's all about SLI and Crossfire, now.
Now that ATI now supports fixed aspect ratio, they're finally back on my list for consideration.
It's probably pessimistic, but most ATI comeback scenarios seem to imply that nvidia will be standing still. There's already evidence that nvidia is holding back products due to lack of competition. The others are that ATI will be early (LOL) while nvidia is very late.
It's probably pessimistic, but most ATI comeback scenarios seem to imply that nvidia will be standing still. There's already evidence that nvidia is holding back products due to lack of competition. The others are that ATI will be early (LOL) while nvidia is very late.
Even so, the single card single gpu solution looks good, with 480sp's and performance equal or greater than the 3870x2, it should be powerful. Now if they go back to the 512mb memory interface, or even do 384/320 like nvidia has, even if its just for the top end card, that would be great.
The problem is that performance equal to a X2 is not that good. The 8800 GTX already matches the X2 in most situations. Sometimes with more eye candy.
R700 must clearly be over twice as fast as R600, for it to be successful.
But as pxc said, these scenarios, even if confirmed, are only based on the fact that NVIDIA is doing nothing, which is not the case. If R700 only matches the rumored 55nm die shrink of G92, then it will be surpassed by G100/GT200 quite easily, which again places AMD/ATI in an inferiority situation in terms of GOPU market.
NV has no hope of beating ATi?Well, i would say ridiculously bad is a bit strong, but w/e. I see ATi coming back strong in Q2.
[speculation]
R700 Is pegged to be released May/June of this year, while GT200 will not be realesed until autumn at the earliest. Also, R700 is supposed to be roughly %50 faster than R600. ATi is also continuing their multi-GPU trend. With crossfireX, ATi is essentially forcing Nvidia to go multi GPU as well, and that is something NV's CEO does not believe in. So, ATi has at LEAST 3 months of domination, and at most 6 IMO. When GT200 comes out, drivers will have matured for crossfireX, and unless GT200 is either Quad-SLI(unlikely) or tri-sli(likely) compatible, NV has no hope of beating ATi in the next gen. It's just sheer GPU horsepower.
Also, R700 will change ATi's issue with AA, Since they are doubling the Tecturing units on R700, AA performance won't be sluggish anymore.
And that's all i can think of for now. Oh wait, the red PCB's are cooler too, and the crossfire bridges are way more awesome than the SLI bridges
[/speculation]
1) U said that HD4870 X2 (R700) would be roughly 50% faster than HD3870 X2
2) Geforce 9800 GX2 is around 40-45% faster than HD3870 X2.
Factory OC'd GX2 cards should have hard fight against HD4870 X2.
If your "50%" number holds truth..then GT200 wouldn't have to beat Nvidia's current gen offerings with big margin
-------
If R700/RV770 is realeased May/June timeframe then it would dictate that these cards won't use GDDR5. GDDR5 manufacturers have been saying that first GDDR5 products will be out H2/2008.
Single GPU systems have their advantages..like they won't have that scaling issue; With HD3870 X2 you get 60-70% higher performance with more than 100% higher power consumption compared to HD3870. I don't get that price thing issue. It needs two GPU's that will take more room from wafer than single little bit larger, it needs more complex PCB and it will need more memory: For example if you want 1024MB usable vram you have to have 2x1024MB memory on that card.
-----
Story might be different when you put more than one card..AMD might have egde there. Problem for them is that these systems with more than one high end graphics card are very rare even when compared to systems using one high end card.
alexgheseger
n00b
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Well, i'm not saying ATi's in particularily good form, i'm just saying things are looking up. They've adopted the tick-tock strategy, which i think is a step in the right direction. Also, you are assuming crossfireX will only support 4 GPU's for the 4xxx series. I have an inkling they'lll go to 8 for the next gen, but that's just my .02. That being said, if you're right about the GDDR5, that means ATi has lost an excellent gimmick (The worlds first GDDR5!!).
I do believe that muti GPU is the way things are going though, i love the idea of just socketing new video cards at sub $200 price points until you have the raw power you want. But i'm the kind of guy who's always upgrading, so that would stand to reason.
Currently, ATi doesn't have any cards that compete price to performance wise. For every ATi card out, nVidia has a card that performs virtually identically for less money, or better for the same money.
ATi needs to do something if they want to get back in the game. Right now, there is no reason to buy any ATi card unless you already have a Crossfire board and want to stick ATi cards in there for Crossfire.
ATi needs to do something if they want to get back in the game. Right now, there is no reason to buy any ATi card unless you already have a Crossfire board and want to stick ATi cards in there for Crossfire.
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Really? I've read that RV770 is up to twice as fast as RV670. Most of your info is spot on, but I'm not so sure they've fixed the AA performance problems. While they did double the texturing units from 16 to 32, they still left the ROP count at 16. Unless they went back and redesigned how they work, I wouldn't hope for a night-and-day difference. An improvement certainly, but not a 2x increase.
This next round will certainly be interesting for sure. Perhaps for the first time I will be sporting a Crossfire rig if RV770 pans out to have a clear advantage over my 8800GT. Here's to hoping, no?
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QFMFT.
not sure where you re coming from with this... the 3870 was pretty competitive with the 8800gt but for less, same with the 2600 vs 8600gt before that. ATi has been consistantly performing within 10 or 15% of nVidia and selling for less. If you re implying nVidia has better performance and competitive pricing, most people here would think you were trying to be funny. nVidia doesn t have to compete on price, because they have the performance crown.
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God I am getting a headache after reading this. Simply put it, Nvidia has better cards out overall and unless ATI comes out with something jaw dropping its going to be very hard for them to make a move for people to move over. Luckily for them the ongoing bickering between Nvidia and Intel has helped them somewhat. Also with the point on the "mature drivers" is a bunch of crap, I understand the point to fix issues here and there I just feel like its people's sense of false hopes.
alexgheseger
n00b
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Hey, i'm still expectantly waiting for the drivers that make the 2900xt ub3r pwn.
People seem to have short term memories. Allow me to take everyone down to memory lane again.
NVIDIA since almost the start has been kicking everyone's ass. In most cases badly. ATI actually being competitive was the fluke. Until the Radeon 8500 they weren't even a real consideration for any gamer who knew what they were doing when it came to hardware. Even then their drivers sucked. It wasn't until they bought ArtX and brought out the mighty ATI Radeon 9700Pro that things changed. They milked that architecture until they couldn't milk it anymore. NVIDIA was just caught off guard by ATI. Since the introduction of the Geforce 6 series that hasn't happened again. Sure ATI has been competitive here and there since that time but they are always late to market and the next greatest thing from NVIDIA is usually just around the corner once ATI does release something. This has no doubt hurt ATI's sales a great deal. Even when they do good like they did with the 3870X2 they still were only right about on par with the 8800Ultra and the 9800GX2 wasn't that far behind. Many people including myself who considered the 3870X2 did the smart thing and waited a few weeks or so to see what NVIDIA was going to release. I think the bulk of potential 3870X2 buyers did just that.
NVIDIA just put things back the way they were before the 9700Pro was released. That's all.
is not all smoke and mirrors. the problem is that it took about 4 driver refreshes to really improve the 2900xt's performance across the board, and especially in stalker. by then, the card had become largely irrelevant, save for numbskull fanboys.
Megalomaniac
2[H]4U
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QFT.
wishing is just that, and i had more ATI cards then the green ones (running an 1900XT now), but hey its a cycle. its the green teams (wait isnt AMD green? ok so the other green team) turn.
the only time that ati had a problem with the drivers was the 8500 series. the hardware was superior, but the drivers were really lackluster, i dont really recall a major driver probelm with ati cards since then. ( ok, ok there was crossfire. )
for ATi to come back, i would first want to see a card that (at least on paper) looks far superior to the 8800GTX, or for the 3870 price drop below 9600GT. 3870 != 8800GT even if you wish it did, so its main competitor is the 9600GT.
The drivers still never turned the card into the 8800GTX killer they really needed to have. Even with the driver updates they couldn't solve the power requirements and extra heat put out by the card. On another note, they STILL don't have a GTX killer. Yes the 3870X2 is faster, but it is only faster some of the time and when it's not it isn't any better than a regular 3870. NVIDIA has again increased the gap by releasing the 9800GX2 which basically ass-rapes the 3870X2.
The 3870 does not compete with the 8800GT, the 8800GT crushes it, the 8800GT is 15% faster than the HD3870. The 9600GT performs slightly better than the 3870 overall, not a noticeable amount though, and it costs less than the 3870. The HD3870 goes for $170(rumored to be moving to $160), the 9600GT $150. The 9600GT consistantly goes for $10-20 less than the worse performing HD3870.
The 8600GT(not GTS) performed identically to the 2600XT and HD3650. The HD3650 goes for $90, the 8600GT goes for $83($68 aftre MIR).
On the cards that perform in the same range as ATi, nVidia does compete competitively on price. Even their higher end cards that crush ATi's offerings are still priced competitively for the performance you are getting.
You can't show me a single ATi card that is worth buying. I present this challenge to you. Show me an ATi card, and I bet I can show you an nVidia card that performs better for the same money, or performs virtually identically for a far bit less.
ATI got so lucky buying out ArtX, much better buy than Nvidia's 3dfx purchase.
Not really. It depends on what you're comparing it with. It beat out the GF3 (sometimes), but the GF4 ate it alive.
Kaldskryke
[H]ard|Gawd
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Smaller cores can decrease silicon costs because there's less wasted silicon around the circular edge of the wafer. Smaller cores are also easier to design, which can also cut costs.
If ATI/AMD is serious about multi-gpu then they need to solve the redundant vram issue, and I think they will. With two dies in the same package, memory sharing should be easier to do than two discrete gpus, and it really needs to happen. The [H] article on Quad-SLI did a good job of illustrating this issue: 4 GPUs really only do well in high-resolution situations, but the 256bit/512MB memory setup prevents exactly that.
Scaling? well, hopefully it gets a little better when the cores are interconnected without the pci-e bridge.
Well not at the moment they arent:
9600 GT 125 USD
HD3870 165 USD
8800 GT 175 USD
At NewEgg
HD 3870 costs like 30% more than 9600 GT even when they have similar performance.
8800 GT is like 5% more expensive than HD3870 and 15-20% more powerful
------
8800 GTS 512MB 215 USD
HD3870 X2 390 USD
HD3870 X2 is 80% more expensive, performance difference is around 30%
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Geforce 9800 GX2 is expensive it's like 570 USD and price difference to HD3870 X2 is around 45%..it's also that 45% faster.
Gee, the next generation of video cards beat out the previous generation....Nobody saw that coming...
Megalomaniac
2[H]4U
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lol, thanks. yeah, the drivers for the 8500 came too little to late. but the hardware was by far superior to what nvidia had. the 8500 was ahead of its time. (by 1/2 a generation)
no you're not.
the 1xxx series was the last one to really even claim a moral high ground in terms of IQ (image quality) the AA and overall IQ that ATI produced was much better and smoother than that of nvidia. but this is no longer true.
the 2xxx was bloated.
the 3xxx is 1/2 a generation behind. if these came out 6 months prior to their release, then ati would still be in the game.
if funny to think about now, but in the end the best the 2900xt could do was match the performance of the 8800gts 320 in some games and barely edge it out in others. as for the 3870x2, the only thing going for it is that you can pair two of them together on an intel board that can actually overclock a q66 without crashing and burning. my evga 680 board lasted 3 months and my asus 650 board lasted 4 weeks with quads overclocked to only 333fsb. it absolutely kills me that i can't run the fastest cards with the most stable quad overclocking boards. i really don't see any reprieve for ati, as every new video card architecture they produce relies too heavily on high gpu clocks and expensive video ram technology (gddr5?) to barely keep up with the nvidia counterpart.
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QFT. nVIDIA is the 500lb. gorilla of the discreet GPU market, and their CEO Jen-Hsun won't settle for anything less.
Kaldskryke
[H]ard|Gawd
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What? They've tried GDDR4 a couple times, but GDDR5 hasn't shown up at all yet. And if they were to produce a GPU that only excels because of massively high clock speed, is that a bad thing? If it excels, it excels. And without GDDR5, next gen cards would probably have to go back to huge bus widths, which is not cheap.
Why is this thread still going? The above quote says it all.
the gddr5 thing i've only heard in passing with reference to r700, but i wouldn't be surprised. as for having to run huge amounts of raw clock, huge clocks mean huge heat, huge clocks also mean huge inefficiencies. ati may beat nvidia to a smaller manufacturing process, but the fact that nvidia continues to use older manufacturing processes while keeping clock speeds and heat in check, and all the while producing faster and faster gpus, says a lot about nvidia's engineering prowess. it also says a lot about ati's engineering prowess.
D
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And it took them 4 years to do "just" this.