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ATI and their true new technology

M

Marvelous

Supreme [H]ardness
Joined
Apr 26, 2003
Messages
4,117
I personally believe ATI will have something that will match 6600GT. I've been hearing rumors here and there about ATI's new card coming out that will match the 6600GT using newer technology.

ATI track records shows this. Look at Radeon 9800series for instance. They build 9800pro with old core and stick 9600pro with smaller die. Same with XT.

Now the x800 with the old core. What does x800 provide as new technology? Nothing much except 16pipes and faster ram and core.

ATI is saving their new technology for the smaller die so they can find out later what to fix for their super accelerated version next year. This also makes lot more sense for OEM. OEM always want more features with less cost.

Let me know what you guys think of all this. Do you guys think ATI is just going to stand and watch while Nvidia run all over them with their 6600GT or do you think ATI is going to suprise us with a new card.

My opinion only.
 
The next mainstream part already has a name, if you want to compare something to the 6600GT. The x700 Pro doesn't look that impressive.

Did you mean something like the R500 vs NV50? That should be the next "true new technology."
 
pxc said:
The next mainstream part already has a name, if you want to compare something to the 6600GT. The x700 Pro doesn't look that impressive.

Did you mean something like the R500 vs NV50? That should be the next "true new technology."
Click to expand...


Ditto the x700 is supposed to come out the 20 th or 21st of this month.
 
ATi is due for a new core this round. The X800 is essentially the second refresh of the 9700 ( 9700 > 9800 > X800 ) so I'd be expecting the next core to be based on a new platform. Nvidia only did pretty well the "minimum" one refresh on the 5800 ( 5800 > 5900 ) to kill off the NV30 and get the new core out as fast as possible.

Nvidia's next core will be a refresh, and very possibly the next one after that too. Its not that easy to just make new cores.
 
I thought the x700 nda was up this week.

As far as ati goes with tech, from what I've seen the original r400 was pushed back for further expansion of features (Unified shader model for longhorn), and the r300 core was simply expanded upon. A good choice for Ati really, win the oem market and still put out an enthusest level card that is arguably the best performer. Ati will most likely expand on this core again before we see a new design. The r300 is a solid platform to build on, I’d bet we see a 24 or even a 32 pipe card from ati with sm3 support before next summer that looks a lot like a beefed r420.
 
People at B3D have speculated that the X800 series was created as a stop gap because of Xbox 2 development. Since the xbox 2 is basically done now, I bet we will see the R520 this spring.
 
By all accounts, the X700 will come in three flavours - XT, Pro and Standard.

The XT achieves 8000 in 3dmark03 (about the same as the 6600GT). However, the XT will cost $50 more.

I think the Pro is situated at a price/performance point that Nvidia isn't addressing. I may be wrong about this.

The Standard version is clocked at 400/600Mhz. Apparently, this will be much faster than the 6600 standard. However, Nvidia could always increase the clock speed if it is worried about losing the competitive edge in the budget market.
 
Marvelous said:
I personally believe ATI will have something that will match 6600GT. I've been hearing rumors here and there about ATI's new card coming out that will match the 6600GT using newer technology.

ATI track records shows this. Look at Radeon 9800series for instance. They build 9800pro with old core and stick 9600pro with smaller die. Same with XT.

Now the x800 with the old core. What does x800 provide as new technology? Nothing much except 16pipes and faster ram and core.

ATI is saving their new technology for the smaller die so they can find out later what to fix for their super accelerated version next year. This also makes lot more sense for OEM. OEM always want more features with less cost.

Let me know what you guys think of all this. Do you guys think ATI is just going to stand and watch while Nvidia run all over them with their 6600GT or do you think ATI is going to suprise us with a new card.

My opinion only.
Click to expand...
You seem like you're worried that ATI won't live up to the 6800 line of GPUs. I think you should stop worrying. I'm sure this time next year ATI will be on top of the video arena. Then the following year nVidia will be back on top. On and on and on. It's called competition and it keeps things interesting as well as keeping companies honest (somewhat :p ). Rest assured you won't have to worry...ATI will bounce. :)
 
Wolf-R1 said:
You seem like you're worried that ATI won't live up to the 6800 line of GPUs. I think you should stop worrying. I'm sure this time next year ATI will be on top of the video arena. Then the following year nVidia will be back on top. On and on and on. It's called competition and it keeps things interesting as well as keeping companies honest (somewhat :p ). Rest assured you won't have to worry...ATI will bounce. :)
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Highly unlike they will be on top, they have a lot of changes coming up that will make it difficult, firstly they are moving to .11, they lose low k, secondly they have to add in sm 3.0, which requires to go to 32 bit presicion, effectively they need 33% increase in bandwidth to keep the same speed they have now with 24 bit. with these three its not a good combination.

Keep in mind nV doesn't need to worry about any of this they just have to drop to .11 which should help out there clock speeds, but they probably will be changing things with in the chip as they do quite a bit for thier revisions.
 
rancor said:
Highly unlike they will be on top, they have a lot of changes coming up that will make it difficult, firstly they are moving to .11, they lose low k, secondly they have to add in sm 3.0, which requires to go to 32 bit presicion, effectively they need 33% increase in bandwidth to keep the same speed they have now with 24 bit. with these three its not a good combination.

Keep in mind nV doesn't need to worry about any of this they just have to drop to .11 which should help out there clock speeds, but they probably will be changing things with in the chip as they do quite a bit for thier revisions.
Click to expand...
Once again I wish we had more icons on the [H] Forum...in this case a "bitchslap" icon.

You know what I meant and didn't need to nit pick. Whether or not it takes a year, two or three years for ATI to get back on top it will probably happen. Then we'll see the reverse happen with nVidia "coming back".
 
Wolf-R1 said:
Once again I wish we had more icons on the [H] Forum...in this case a "bitchslap" icon.

You know what I meant and didn't need to nit pick. Whether or not it takes a year, two or three years for ATI to get back on top it will probably happen. Then we'll see the reverse happen with nVidia "coming back".
Click to expand...


Why are ya so vehiment about it, I'm just stating facts, you didn't do that, please, tell me the facts you base you hypothesis on. Btw ya just got bitch slapped, if you can't back your theory up :D.

Its going to be just as close as this round, if not closer. Both technologies from nV and ATi are going to be very similiar structure wise.
 
I haven't seen a single benchmark of anything close to competing with the 6800NU and 6600GT in their respective price ranges. I think that is what the parent is concerned about. I'm not sure how much the X600 costs but it obviously isn't the answer.
 
rancor said:
Why are ya so vehiment about it, I'm just stating facts, you didn't do that, please, tell me the facts you base you hypothesis on. Btw ya just got bitch slapped, if you can't back you theory up :D.

Its going to be just as close as this round, if not closer. Both technologies from nV and ATi are going to be very similiar structure wise.
Click to expand...
:confused:

It's a fact of business. Why do I need to prove something that is taught at most high schools?

Neither company is in danger of going bankrupt anytime soon. They each have enough capital and assets to continue this cat and mouse game for many, many years. Furthermore we as consumers WANT the cat and mouse games to go on as we end up winning in the end with whatever comes out of it.

Again you missed the point. You stated specific facts to my generalization.
 
Wolf-R1 said:
:confused:

It's a fact of business. Why do I need to prove something that is taught at most high schools?

Neither company is in danger of going bankrupt anytime soon. They each have enough capital and assets to continue this cat and mouse game for many, many years. Furthermore we as consumers WANT the cat and mouse games to go on as we end up winning in the end with whatever comes out of it.

Again you missed the point. You stated specific facts to my generalization.
Click to expand...


Its is a fact of business but there is only so much current silicon technology can do, and as nV and ATi have shown they push it to the limits for each release. The only way that will change is if one of them goes away from the norms. And that will not happen as its too risky, this was seen in the fx line. So you are left with a fight that will be very close. Not one or the other going to be on top.
 
rancor said:
Its is a fact of business but there is only so much current silicon technology can do, and as nV and ATi have shown they push it to the limits for each release. The only way that will change is if one of them goes away from the norms. And that will not happen as its too risky, this was seen in the fx line. So you are left with a fight that will be very close. Not one or the other going to be on top.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. Maybe I didn't clarify enough.

What I meant was that most people here bitch or cheer about one or the other company being "on top" when their flagship card is 5% faster. Which we all know usually equates to very little real world. Thus...whichever company has that meager 5% gets "crowned" the performance "king" and everybody craps their pants to get that tech.

Thus...you don't have to worry because in the next year or two they will swap sides and continue to do so as long as each company remains strong.
 
Wolf-R1 said:
Absolutely. Maybe I didn't clarify enough.

What I meant was that most people here bitch or cheer about one or the other company being "on top" when their flagship card is 5% faster. Which we all know usually equates to very little real world. Thus...whichever company has that meager 5% gets "crowned" the performance "king" and everybody craps their pants to get that tech.

Thus...you don't have to worry because in the next year or two they will swap sides and continue to do so as long as each company remains strong.
Click to expand...


Well this round nV is crowned not because of a performance lead, as both cards are very close, but because they have more technology which is future proof and they got thier cards out. ATi's yield issues, maybe due to Low-k, or maybe TSMC, maybe thats why nV decided to go with IBM over TSMC as TSMC was having issues producing more complex chips.
 
Screw ATi and Nvidia! I'm buying an S3 DeltaChrome! It's l33t. :D

Just kidding, but seriously, I'm curious as well to see if ATi has something up their sleeve.
 
I guess you might have to take into consideration, that the same team that made the r300 is the team that's developing the r520.

The R300 at the time was just amazing. Who knows they could do the same with the R520.

But for now, Nvidia is performance king.
 
Wolf-R1 said:
Once again I wish we had more icons on the [H] Forum...in this case a "bitchslap" icon.

You know what I meant and didn't need to nit pick. Whether or not it takes a year, two or three years for ATI to get back on top it will probably happen. Then we'll see the reverse happen with nVidia "coming back".
Click to expand...
"nit-pick"? While what he wrote may be speculation...still it sounds like he's done some research and gave real examples of the possible outcomes.
 
I can't see ATI going .11 with their top end cores. The loss of low-k will be a major thing and as I understand it .11 isn't a major step, just a way to get a few more transistors into a smaller space. I would expect the high-end will go to .09 next if anything.
 
As far as new core, you could argue they were due for a new core this round (x800 vs. 6800). The upcoming round is refreshes from both parties. Looks like the round after that you might see a new core from ATI.
 
peltman78 said:
I can't see ATI going .11 with their top end cores. The loss of low-k will be a major thing and as I understand it .11 isn't a major step, just a way to get a few more transistors into a smaller space. I would expect the high-end will go to .09 next if anything.
Click to expand...


That is a possiblity, but if .11 is being used for the x700's, I don't see them going to .09 till thier next line but only for thier mainstream cards because the process has to mature. If they do stick with TMSC it might not be hard to do, but if they switch fabricators, then the chip has to be redesigned depending on who is making it. ATi has always be very cautious when it comes to top end cards and new fab processes because they are pushed to the limits and if anything goes wrong, its most likely in the fab process.
 
Ati isn't that bad at the moment anyway. The x800 xt-pe is often considered the fastest, and i reckon that the x700xt could be something special. remember the 6800's wer first launched in may, almost 4 months ago, still no PS3 games on the market and none planned as far as i can see, far cry aside.

And considering that the x800 is just a 9800 with a few more pixel pipelines (basically), when they do a full core refresh they'll be able to create something impressive.

And the x600xt is just a radeon 9600 xt with PCI-E, so it's no wonder the 6600 beats it. In fact im amazed the x600 manages to keep up at all.
 
That last part is kind of funny. I'm surprised they released them. They clearly waited for nV to come out first, I'm flabbergasted they expected people to pay the $200 price tag for a 9600XT still. It doesn't even remotely keep up. X700 is a necessity.

Benches are out for all but the X700xt so its not like anything is happenning in the near future that cant be foreseen. The X700 series looks like it will make things interesting and descisions tougher but will not change the game at this time.
 
don_vercetti said:
remember the 6800's wer first launched in may, almost 4 months ago, still no PS3 games on the market and none planned as far as i can see, far cry aside.
Click to expand...

i could name a few: half life 2, tribes: vengeance, Lotr: Battle for middle-earth,bloodlines: vampire masquarade(or vampire masquarade: bloodlines :D ).

and thats off the top of my head
 
I hope the x700 is a good product. That way, the prices of both the 6600 series and hte x700 series will remain competitive.
 
don_vercetti said:
Ati isn't that bad at the moment anyway. The x800 xt-pe is often considered the fastest, and i reckon that the x700xt could be something special. remember the 6800's wer first launched in may, almost 4 months ago, still no PS3 games on the market and none planned as far as i can see, far cry aside.

And considering that the x800 is just a 9800 with a few more pixel pipelines (basically), when they do a full core refresh they'll be able to create something impressive.

And the x600xt is just a radeon 9600 xt with PCI-E, so it's no wonder the 6600 beats it. In fact im amazed the x600 manages to keep up at all.
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There are already over a dozen games that have announced support for PS 3.0 and i wouldn't consider the X800XT PE as the fastest compared to the 6800U. Recent benchmarks show the 6800U to be faster in alot of the D3D games now and nVidia is completely dominant in OpenGL and Linux. The 6800U also supports all the features of PS and VS 3.0 which will most definitely be used in upcoming games. Its a long time before PS 4.0 is going to be out.

The ATI R300 cores weren't even their design, they used technology from a company that they bought out and the X800's are modeled right after the R300 cores.

I dont know why people think ATI is so far advanced in coming out with new hardware technology considering they were getting owned by nearly every GPU manufacturer that came along from 1985 up to the release of the R300 cores.

I hope ATI continues to come out with quality products to compete with nVidia and keep prices down but i look for nVidia to take back the once dominant lead they had a few years ago and keep it for a while with the upcoming NV50 and NV60 cores.
 
You seem like you're worried that ATI won't live up to the 6800 line of GPUs. I think you should stop worrying. I'm sure this time next year ATI will be on top of the video arena. Then the following year nVidia will be back on top. On and on and on. It's called competition and it keeps things interesting as well as keeping companies honest (somewhat ). Rest assured you won't have to worry...ATI will bounce.
Click to expand...

Not really I just think ATI does have something up their sleeve. ATI knows Nvidia. And Nvidia knows ATI. 3dfx didn't know anything about business that's why they are ouf of commission.
 
Marvelous said:
Not really I just think ATI does have something up their sleeve. ATI knows Nvidia. And Nvidia knows ATI. 3dfx didn't know anything about business that's why they are ouf of commission.
Click to expand...

3DFX may be out of business now but ATI got their butt kicked by 3DFX when they were around lol.

The only reason ATI is still in business is because they had the OEM market pretty much all to themselves. The OEM market translates to a LARGE portion of the profits. Even though ATI didn't have the fastest cards they were still being used in the OEM machines.

If ATI knows anything about nVidia at all they better know that they should get their butts in gear or risk losing everything they built up with the R300 cores.
 
burningrave101 said:
There are already over a dozen games that have announced support for PS 3.0 and i wouldn't consider the X800XT PE as the fastest compared to the 6800U. Recent benchmarks show the 6800U to be faster in alot of the D3D games now and nVidia is completely dominant in OpenGL and Linux. The 6800U also supports all the features of PS and VS 3.0 which will most definitely be used in upcoming games. Its a long time before PS 4.0 is going to be out.

The ATI R300 cores weren't even their design, they used technology from a company that they bought out and the X800's are modeled right after the R300 cores.

I dont know why people think ATI is so far advanced in coming out with new hardware technology considering they were getting owned by nearly every GPU manufacturer that came along from 1985 up to the release of the R300 cores.

I hope ATI continues to come out with quality products to compete with nVidia and keep prices down but i look for nVidia to take back the once dominant lead they had a few years ago and keep it for a while with the upcoming NV50 and NV60 cores.
Click to expand...

I would say that the Radeon 8500 was more advanced than the Geforce 3's and 4's at the time, technology wise. It was just the drivers that sucked.
 
peltman78 said:
I would say that the Radeon 8500 was more advanced than the Geforce 3's and 4's at the time, technology wise. It was just the drivers that sucked.
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Which at the end of the day amounts to the same thing for the consumer [ie, an inferior purchase]. Let's not argue semantics folks. :D
 
The Batman said:
Which at the end of the day amounts to the same thing for the consumer [ie, an inferior purchase]. Let's not argue semantics folks. :D
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Not at the end of the day, 2 months later.
:D

I had a 8500, and a GF3. The 8500 was faster, as later reviews with better drivers showed. The first initial drivers were craptastic, no doubt about it. Not utilizing all the features of the card. After a few driver updates, it outpaced the GF3 though. But it sure did suck having to wait that long.
 
fallguy said:
Not at the end of the day, 2 months later.
:D

I had a 8500, and a GF3. The 8500 was faster, as later reviews with better drivers showed. The first initial drivers were craptastic, no doubt about it. Not utilizing all the features of the card. After a few driver updates, it outpaced the GF3 though. But it sure did suck having to wait that long.
Click to expand...


True also by the the gf 4 ti's were out.

sorry typo
 
burningrave101 said:
The only reason ATI is still in business is because they had the OEM market pretty much all to themselves. The OEM market translates to a LARGE portion of the profits. Even though ATI didn't have the fastest cards they were still being used in the OEM machines.

If ATI knows anything about nVidia at all they better know that they should get their butts in gear or risk losing everything they built up with the R300 cores.
Click to expand...

How can you say OEM is the reason they are still in business considering the wins just came in the past six months. :rolleyes:

ATI went from a "also ran" to a player with the 9000 series cores while NV lost with their 5000 series cores. What will screw this up is ATI will release the R5xx card in four-six months (with PS3.0 + support and 24+ pipes) leaving NV with the 6000 series cores for another 12-18 months, which won't work well for NV.

I'd say this is just NV's six months of fame.
 
R1ckCa1n said:
How can you say OEM is the reason they are still in business considering the wins just came in the past six months. :rolleyes:

ATI went from a "also ran" to a player with the 9000 series cores while NV lost with their 5000 series cores. What will screw this up is ATI will release the R5xx card in four-six months (with PS3.0 + support and 24+ pipes) leaving NV with the 6000 series cores for another 12-18 months, which won't work well for NV.

I'd say this is just NV's six months of fame.
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Yes and that 6 months worth of fame, will translate to alot more, look at the clock speeds for nV they aren't getting anywhere near thier limits yet. when they go down in microns they will be able to clock them higher, and ultrashadow isn't even being used yet.
 
just when i was pretty sure to get a 6600gt i get second thoughts about the x700, god i hate competition, well im not saying anything until i see the prices and benches, any links??
 
should be out next week, just waiting for the x700's NDA's to be lifted.
 
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