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Athlon vs Phenom + 8200/8300 or 780 chipset. Discuss here.
- Thread starter Logan321
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Stereodude
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IVTC:
Basic deinterlacing:
That's right, I am making it all up. There's no difference between those two images.
Basic deinterlacing:
That's right, I am making it all up. There's no difference between those two images.
Stereodude
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Look, just because you don't understand the subject matter here doesn't mean you get to mislead people without anyone correcting you. The same issue shows up with a "pure digital" setup. I can see the difference on my 52" 1080p LCD also. The difference between IVTC and basic deinterlacing is real and visible.
Stereodude
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Look, it's a tool to help evaluate what your video processing does with certain types of content. A top end player can pass the tests on the disc. If you want a HTPC of equal image quality it should be able to pass them as well. If you don't care about image quality (which seems to be the case for some of you guys) then, don't use it or consider the results. It's pretty simple.
Trepidati0n
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Wow...nice cut. In this case you aren't winning arguments by insulting crim. In reality...even if you are right, nobody will want to listen to you. You may wish to retune your rhetoric.
Stereodude
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I'm just calling it like I see it.
Their loss. I guess I can only show someone the truth, but I can't make them believe it.
Rhetoric? Where's the rhetoric? I thought people here would be interested to maximize their image quality and buy appropriate parts. That doesn't seem to be the case.
I guess I'll steer clear of the HTPC forum here and stick to other forums where people are actually care about getting the best image quality from their HTPC instead of denying the limitations of the hardware their buying.
IVTC:
snip
Basic deinterlacing:
snip
That's right, I am making it all up. There's no difference between those two images.
I don't see any differences? Care to point some out?
Yeah, maybe saving as .jpg wasn't the best idea? The two images look IDENTICAL to me. I put 'em at full screen and switched back and forth, and I honestly couldn't see anywhere that had more clarity or more noise or anything. Maybe put up a pre-processed image as well for comparison?
Stereodude
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You're joking right?
The CBS logo is the most obvious difference. The IVTC'd one has more detail in general and is sharper. You can see it in the cake, in the texture on the paper coffee cup, the brown can with the pen and pencil in it, the diagonal edges of the red bow, etc...
Stereodude
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They're not the same, and the .jpg didn't noticeably affect them. They're actually quite different.
No wonder you guys don't care much about image quality.
Try viewing the ones you posted up from this page, man. I'm telling ya, they're indistinguishable from each other. Are you looking at them on your RP set, or on a 1080p LCD monitor? On my 26.5" 1920x1200 I honestly don't see a change, except if I squint and look really close there's a little more grain and less blur in about 5 places on the IVTC one.
If that difference was what all the fuss was about, I rescind any comments I made about IQ and the phenom.
If that difference was what all the fuss was about, I rescind any comments I made about IQ and the phenom.
Dangman
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I didn't notice all of that till you actually pointed it out. The differences do seem a bit minor to me though.
Stereodude
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I just did when I typed up my reply detailing the differences. I don't have the originals on this PC.
I haven't tried to view these shots on my RP set. I used my 24" 1920x1200 LCD monitor this morning.
FWIW, I could tell a noticeable improvement when I put a video card in my HTPC capable of IVTC on 1080i content.
You're joking right?
The CBS logo is the most obvious difference. The IVTC'd one has more detail in general and is sharper. You can see it in the cake, in the texture on the paper coffee cup, the brown can with the pen and pencil in it, the diagonal edges of the red bow, etc...
I see it now but honestly those differences are minor and in the grand scheme of things I don't think it would be very noticeable since everything is moving... or it could make it more noticeable. I haven't tested it on my computer but I will when I get home.
I'm like many where I didn't see the differences until you pointed it out.
I think what many of us are saying is that we care about picture quality, and it is important to us. But this seems to be on the very fringes of how "dramatic" differences are. Most of us feel that what you are pointing out is just not realistic enough to make such a fuss over. People will be moving around, the cake candles will be blown out, the coffee cup will be picked up; the picture isn't going to be static for 30 seconds while you pick out the differences.
Personally, I was thinking between the 7750 Kuma and the 4850e, and choose the 4850e because it is more silent from the fanless HSF and has less power comsumption. After reading this and seeing those pictures, I still feel that the 4850e is a better choice for a HTPC system because it simply fits the glove better. While we can't argue your technical approach, I think Crimson is just more realistic.
I think what many of us are saying is that we care about picture quality, and it is important to us. But this seems to be on the very fringes of how "dramatic" differences are. Most of us feel that what you are pointing out is just not realistic enough to make such a fuss over. People will be moving around, the cake candles will be blown out, the coffee cup will be picked up; the picture isn't going to be static for 30 seconds while you pick out the differences.
Personally, I was thinking between the 7750 Kuma and the 4850e, and choose the 4850e because it is more silent from the fanless HSF and has less power comsumption. After reading this and seeing those pictures, I still feel that the 4850e is a better choice for a HTPC system because it simply fits the glove better. While we can't argue your technical approach, I think Crimson is just more realistic.
Stereodude
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Or you can pay a little more, get an nVidia 9300/9400 IGP motherboard and E5200, and go quiet and have the image quality.
Or you can pay a little more, get an nVidia 9300/9400 IGP motherboard and E5200, and go quiet and have the image quality.
Well, some of us already purchased our equipment. Most of this thread made it seem like it was the difference between night or day, or even afternoon and late afternoon; this looks more like 1PM to 1:15PM. If it was great enough that it was a noticable difference, personally for me it isn't but I do see it now, it is just not worth going through the return process. It was still good information though as I watch only OTA HD, I can later buy a e 3.0, and I still want a WHS server so I was going to end up buying a budget low power hardware anyways.
CrimandEvil
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Stereodude, you seem to be the kind of guy who buys MonsterCables......
Anyways, I was right and that's really all that matters to me. This is a known issue and it's also one that doesn't even matter.... unless you're the kind of guy who watches TV station's logos instead of the TV show..... Yeah.
And at least I'm not full of it enough to say this doesn't exist which is what you have accused me off. I said it was stupid, pointless and not really an issue because of what it is.
You want the "best" image quality? Fine. Do that but don't make it seem like this is some grand deal breaker of an issue (which is exactly what you did, if anyone had listened to me and others who actually know what they're talking about then this thread would have never even been started it).
On the plus side, I've never laughed so hard reading your last few posts after you posted those screen shots.
Anyways, I was right and that's really all that matters to me. This is a known issue and it's also one that doesn't even matter.... unless you're the kind of guy who watches TV station's logos instead of the TV show..... Yeah.
And at least I'm not full of it enough to say this doesn't exist which is what you have accused me off. I said it was stupid, pointless and not really an issue because of what it is.
You want the "best" image quality? Fine. Do that but don't make it seem like this is some grand deal breaker of an issue (which is exactly what you did, if anyone had listened to me and others who actually know what they're talking about then this thread would have never even been started it).
On the plus side, I've never laughed so hard reading your last few posts after you posted those screen shots.
Stereodude
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Uh, No... I have Monoprice.com cables.
Just because you have low standards doesn't mean everyone else does. It is noticeable and I proved it. And, I'm not alone.Anyways, I was right and that's really all that matters to me. This is a known issue and it's also one that doesn't even matter.... unless you're the kind of guy who watches TV station's logos instead of the TV show..... Yeah.
And at least I'm not full of it enough to say this doesn't exist which is what you have accused me off. I said it was stupid, pointless and not really an issue because of what it is.
You want the "best" image quality? Fine. Do that but don't make it seem like this is some grand deal breaker of an issue (which is exactly what you did, if anyone had listened to me and others who actually know what they're talking about then this thread would have never even been started it).
On the plus side, I've never laughed so hard reading your last few posts after you posted those screen shots.
You, and people like you, crack me up. You spend thousands of dollars on a TV or projector and audio system to go with it and then try to save $50 (or less) on the HTPC instead of trying to get the best possible picture. I guess people should just buy 720p TVs and projectors too right? I mean they're cheaper and almost as good and you might only see the difference 5% of the time.
You, and people like you, crack me up. You spend thousands of dollars on a TV or projector and audio system to go with it and then try to save $50 (or less) on the HTPC instead of trying to get the best possible picture. I guess people should just buy 720p TVs and projectors too right? I mean they're cheaper and almost as good and you might only see the difference 5% of the time.
I spend a couple grand on my audio system, yes, but having a HT3.0 processor isn't going to make it any better. My TV *is* a 720p 42", and it'll probably suit me fine for the next year or so.
I stand by my support of a 4850 or 5050e + 8200 mobo... The difference in IQ is so minor that most people couldn't differentiate without being told what to look for... Hardly a deal - no deal kind of difference.
As for the rest, for myself, very quiet is the priority. A lower power cpu means less heat, and less fan noise, which means I get to hear my sound system better, which I did spend a lot on.
scoobert
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I guess people should just buy 720p TVs and projectors too right? I mean they're cheaper and almost as good and you might only see the difference 5% of the time.
As my grandpa used to say "there has to be ditch diggers in the world too."
IE: I guess someone has to buy a 720 TV that suits there needs just fine. I'll leave buying the absolute best, the minute it gets out to the elitist snobs of the world so they can rub it in our face from time to time.
CrimandEvil
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I just find it hilarious that the biggest difference in his screenies is the CBS logo, the most "glaring" difference is the CBS logo so I guess as long as we're watching the TV show and not the logo the rest of us will be fine.
Have fun Stereodude, watching your CBS logo secured in the knowledge that your money was well spent and that logo is the best it's going to get.
EmptyFriend
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I'm trying to follow the conversation but am having a little trouble keeping track of the differences as it relates to the actual hardware. Can someone just do a quick list of the different processors, mobos, video cards (if applicable) and what they do or don't do? I recently got my first HDTV (had still been using my wife's college TV, a 20"!!!!) and am looking into building an HTPC.
Also, does this affect 120hz TVs? Do they still have to worry about the whole IVTC/interlacing issue? Thanks.
Also, does this affect 120hz TVs? Do they still have to worry about the whole IVTC/interlacing issue? Thanks.
Athlon + 8200/8300 or 780 motherboard = good image quality, lower cost, lower power consumption.
Phenom + 8200/8300 or 780 motherboard = slightly better image quality with post processing, moderate cost, higher power consumption.
Core2 Cpu + 9300/9400 motherboard = slightly better image quality with post processing, higher cost, moderate power consumption.
Phenom + 8200/8300 or 780 motherboard = slightly better image quality with post processing, moderate cost, higher power consumption.
Core2 Cpu + 9300/9400 motherboard = slightly better image quality with post processing, higher cost, moderate power consumption.
CrimandEvil
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Yup. That's an awesome break down... and why this thread should just die since this info is exactly the same info you can find in any other "what hardware should I use" ... Except that I wouldn't suggest a 780G mobo at this point.
Hey, it's my thread, what if I don't want it to die just yet? I think what was unclear to me, and to a lot of other people is just what exactly the image quality difference was. The only thing I had seen on it was it was 30 HQV points for athlon, and 100 hqv points for HT3.0 CPUs (Phenom/Kawa) and intel cpus, with the same chipset (more or less, 8x00 vs 9x00).
30vs100 sounds like a lot, so I pushed the issue to find out what the difference really was, since I couldn't find screenshots anywhere that actually demonstrated a clear difference.
Stereodude provided them, and while I disagree with him about how critical the difference is, now at least people can look at images for themselves and decide.
Trepidati0n
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That isn't the biggest thing to take from this thread...the biggest thing to take form this thread how big a piece of shit the HQV test is. Stereodudes own post proved it. This kind of crap is EXACTLY why Kyle and crew do NOT use benchmarks for certain things.
BTW...there is nothing wrong with a 720p projector. I've had mine for nearly 7 years now and people still say wow when they see it even though much better gear exists these days. The first thing I always get asked is "when can I come over for a movie" and not "what was your HQV score.
Yeah, I had my suspicions from the beginning, since every review I saw just put up a graph and not screenshots. I think what confirmed it for me was noticing that HQV was actually for marketing their own post-processing algorithms, and not an independent (ie unbiased) company with no vested interest in specific post-processing criteria.
Well this thread was great, I learned a lot about where I should be spending my money, the differences between the chipsets and the resultant impacts. All from some very knowledgable guys, all trying to help out and all of whom had valuable input, who eventually managed to come off sounding like a bunch of grade school kids.
I just had to add that to fit in, sorry. I, for one, am going to miss the input of any single person who leaves because of that ridiculous exchange.
So there.
I just had to add that to fit in, sorry. I, for one, am going to miss the input of any single person who leaves because of that ridiculous exchange.
So there.
I don't know why people keep insisting that that the 8200/8300 gets improved post processing performance with Phenom/HT 1.8ghz+ processors like the 780G does. It makes no difference with it at all. I can say for certain however that the 8300 does have some issues with 1080i content, at least when you see scrolling as it just can't handle the pulldown properly. Overclocking the graphics clock, or adding an 8500GT helps if you do hybrid SLI, but it still is there a little. I've actually been pondering for months on if I was going to change out my mainboard from the 8300 to a 780G just because of the pulldown distraction.
EndersShadow
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I am still going with the 8200 or 8300 (depending on availability) as well, however I am going without a graphics card to start. Can always purchase one later, like this one
Hi guys,
I've had the Geforce 8300 Asus M3N78-EM for 2 months now and can confirm the issues with the chipset when using a 5200 X2 processor. I have just purchased a 7750 X2 CPU (based on the phenom) and it works brilliantly - all issues seem to be solved now and picture quality is as it should be!
I have been testing it with a 37" 100hz 1080p Toshiba Regza TV, and knew something was wrong with my HTPC as images from other devices and H264/x264 sources were really good (though there was some jittering). I did most of my testing using Cyberlinks Codec, but also confirmed it with WinDVD and other codecs / players. I tested on both Windows XP and Vista x86 with the same results.
The issues I was experiencing were:
- 1080i/576i digital TV transmission showed flickering when using hardware acceleration and without it hardware acceleration there would be motion issues and video was slow on some transmissions.
- DVD playback showed flickering (e.g. Warner Brothers logo at the start of west wing)
- Blu Ray play back HD content showed jitter/judder on slow panning shots and on slow zooming shots, the image seemed to wobble/jump (as though the camera had hit some bumps on the floor) this was when using VRM9 or EVR renderers under MPC-HC and within Cyberlink Power DVD, however worked fine when using the Haali software renderer under MPC-HC. Measured Jitter under Media Portal using Shift + ! I(which shows stats on playback) and it showed jitter between 10 and 20.
- Cool 'n' quiet when turned on caused poor playback of most video, including even just 700MB Divx DVD rips - had to turn it off to get reasonable playback performance.
How did I know swapping to a Phenom would do the trick? Research!
- If you go through http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990188 and Part 2 of this forum thread, you'll find people complaining about the same sort of issues, so this confirmed it just wasn't me.
- Found this great page on missing remote which said basically that you needed a Phenom Processor.
- Most reviews for this board indicated that the board was excellent with visual processing quality, all these review were using a Phenom processor, I could only find one that did not use a phenom and just a regular AMD x2 processor and it got very poor visual quality rest results (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/motherboards/2008/05/20/jetway-jnc62k-geforce-8200-mini-itx/10). This backed up the missing remote post.
- Found this thread, took the advice on overclocking the Hyper Transport (HT) - so underclocked the 5200 from 2.7ghz per core to 2ghz via multiplier and then overclocked the FSB from 200 to 250 (basically 250 x 5 = 1250 HT). This dramatically reduced jitter/judder and almost totally removed flashing etc... Almost perfect. So obviously, HT was the key to solving the problem.
- Purchased the 7750 processor (which is based on the Phenom) and has a 1800 HT rate (3.6ghz instead of 2000 on the X2 5200), put it in last night - everything is perfect now. No issues at all now. No flashing, no jitter/judder, Cool n quiet works, clearer better picture, motion much smoother - very, very happy!
Sorry about the long RANT, but it's good to get it all off my chest. I totally recommend getting the 7750 as it's far less $ than an x3 and x4 and has more than enough processing power to get the job done - although I found I HAD to turn on cool and quiet + turn on the Asus QFan feature just to get the noise of the fan down as it tends to run a lot hotter than the 5200 X2. I would NOT recommend the standard Athlon X2, you won't get the visual performance out of it that you've probably read in all the reviews and are bound to be disappointed.
P.S. For those thinking about the ATI/AMD 780G IGP, this is a great board too, but according to the "missing remote" link about, it also requires a Phenom processor for interlaced material - so you may find the same or similar issues with it.
Cheers
Matt.
I've had the Geforce 8300 Asus M3N78-EM for 2 months now and can confirm the issues with the chipset when using a 5200 X2 processor. I have just purchased a 7750 X2 CPU (based on the phenom) and it works brilliantly - all issues seem to be solved now and picture quality is as it should be!
I have been testing it with a 37" 100hz 1080p Toshiba Regza TV, and knew something was wrong with my HTPC as images from other devices and H264/x264 sources were really good (though there was some jittering). I did most of my testing using Cyberlinks Codec, but also confirmed it with WinDVD and other codecs / players. I tested on both Windows XP and Vista x86 with the same results.
The issues I was experiencing were:
- 1080i/576i digital TV transmission showed flickering when using hardware acceleration and without it hardware acceleration there would be motion issues and video was slow on some transmissions.
- DVD playback showed flickering (e.g. Warner Brothers logo at the start of west wing)
- Blu Ray play back HD content showed jitter/judder on slow panning shots and on slow zooming shots, the image seemed to wobble/jump (as though the camera had hit some bumps on the floor) this was when using VRM9 or EVR renderers under MPC-HC and within Cyberlink Power DVD, however worked fine when using the Haali software renderer under MPC-HC. Measured Jitter under Media Portal using Shift + ! I(which shows stats on playback) and it showed jitter between 10 and 20.
- Cool 'n' quiet when turned on caused poor playback of most video, including even just 700MB Divx DVD rips - had to turn it off to get reasonable playback performance.
How did I know swapping to a Phenom would do the trick? Research!
- If you go through http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990188 and Part 2 of this forum thread, you'll find people complaining about the same sort of issues, so this confirmed it just wasn't me.
- Found this great page on missing remote which said basically that you needed a Phenom Processor.
- Most reviews for this board indicated that the board was excellent with visual processing quality, all these review were using a Phenom processor, I could only find one that did not use a phenom and just a regular AMD x2 processor and it got very poor visual quality rest results (http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/motherboards/2008/05/20/jetway-jnc62k-geforce-8200-mini-itx/10). This backed up the missing remote post.
- Found this thread, took the advice on overclocking the Hyper Transport (HT) - so underclocked the 5200 from 2.7ghz per core to 2ghz via multiplier and then overclocked the FSB from 200 to 250 (basically 250 x 5 = 1250 HT). This dramatically reduced jitter/judder and almost totally removed flashing etc... Almost perfect. So obviously, HT was the key to solving the problem.
- Purchased the 7750 processor (which is based on the Phenom) and has a 1800 HT rate (3.6ghz instead of 2000 on the X2 5200), put it in last night - everything is perfect now. No issues at all now. No flashing, no jitter/judder, Cool n quiet works, clearer better picture, motion much smoother - very, very happy!
Sorry about the long RANT, but it's good to get it all off my chest. I totally recommend getting the 7750 as it's far less $ than an x3 and x4 and has more than enough processing power to get the job done - although I found I HAD to turn on cool and quiet + turn on the Asus QFan feature just to get the noise of the fan down as it tends to run a lot hotter than the 5200 X2. I would NOT recommend the standard Athlon X2, you won't get the visual performance out of it that you've probably read in all the reviews and are bound to be disappointed.
P.S. For those thinking about the ATI/AMD 780G IGP, this is a great board too, but according to the "missing remote" link about, it also requires a Phenom processor for interlaced material - so you may find the same or similar issues with it.
Cheers
Matt.
Trepidati0n
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Thanks matt. Your post was a lot less condescending than others and definitely provided information to help people better understand the issue.
Matt,
Great Explanation! I just purchased that exact setup; Kuma 7750 + M3N78-EM and I was starting to doubt myself in my choice of components... A couple of quick questions since you have the same CPU/MOBO combo I'm going with...
Are you using stock HSF for cooling the 7750 ?
What type of case did you go with ?
Are you overclocking/undervolting the 7750 at all or did you leave it at stock ?
What type of memory are you running 800 or 1066 ? (I Purchased Corsair 2x2GB 1066)
Which codec pack(s) are you running and software ?
Sorry for the off-topic post...
Great Explanation! I just purchased that exact setup; Kuma 7750 + M3N78-EM and I was starting to doubt myself in my choice of components... A couple of quick questions since you have the same CPU/MOBO combo I'm going with...
Are you using stock HSF for cooling the 7750 ?
What type of case did you go with ?
Are you overclocking/undervolting the 7750 at all or did you leave it at stock ?
What type of memory are you running 800 or 1066 ? (I Purchased Corsair 2x2GB 1066)
Which codec pack(s) are you running and software ?
Sorry for the off-topic post...
Sorry for the late reply...
- I went with stock cooler however there's a loud fan issue too, which I've managed to get around the loud fan problem by using Cool n Quiet, setting QFAN to kick in at 40 degrees and telling it to lower the fan volt to 4v this works great. My guess is that they haven't got the right settings in there for a 7750 for both Fan and Vcore. Vcore should have a max standard vcore of 1.325 but it's Max is 1.425 - there's no way of setting it any lower. And having the fan rpm lower doesn't overheat the CPU - so it seems to be a glitch. Apart from these problems everything else is great. I've got in contact with Asus support and we are working through the issue - will post back here on results.
- I've got the Antec 2480 media case - it's pretty nice I would recommend it and it's one of the cheaper but still good ones on the market.
- The M3N78-EM doesn't give you much choice, you can only overvolt (and it's doing itself anyway! where I don't want it too).
- Just using some DDR2 667 that I had lying around.
- I use MPC-HC codec for mpeg4/x264 and Cyberlinks codec (not power dvd) for pretty much everything else (HDTV/ Mpeg Video). I use AC3 Filter for SPDIF passthrough and for a UI I use Media portal on Windows XP.
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