ASUS Will NOT Replace my Mobo After I Damaged it Myself.

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chanberg

Banned Warranty Abuser
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My Asus Impact VI stopped detecting one of the dimm slots one day and i decided to RMA it. I had no reason to think they would deny it, since it really just stopped working, and the board looked perfect

So after a few weeks go by, i get an email saying they don't have a replacement board for me and that when something finally comes in stock they would send me one. Well I'm thinking "well atleast they approved my RMA"

Another week goes by and i get an email for a $170 bill for a replacement board. I call and ask or the reason and they said it was due to a scratched trace. I ask for detailed photos of the damage and i get this.



I guess we got to be super careful screwing in our heatsinks from now, because apparently scratching an area with no traces deams voiding your warranty....


ugh, i am lost for words, pissed
 
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hellr4isEr

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That definitely sucks man. I think that scratch may denote physical damage which is usually not covered. For example when some people spray paint their stuff, that also voids the warranty unless you use plasti-dip and remove all traces of it.

Also PCBs like motherboards have many layers of traces. I don't really know how you managed to do that to begin with. I've built 100s of pcs and never once had that problem when putting on a heatsink of any kind.
 

TMCM

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I think the guy's name is Raja (sp?) but he's an ASUS rep here on the forum. Shoot him a message and he might be able to help you out
 
M

mls1995

Guest
I've done something similar to a mobo in the past, it's purely cosmetic. That's b.s.
 

Fifth Horseman

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Here's my issue with the "damage". How do we know that the Asus tech didn't do it themselves and now are claiming that the customer did it?

I have a few Asus products. If I ever need to send anything in for warranty work, I'm taking high resolution photos of it in camera raw format. That way if they come back at me and tell me that I damaged the board I can verify my pics against theirs. At that point is a "simple" matter of letting them know that the damage wasn't there before I sent it in and I have photographs in a non-editable format that prove my claim. Either approve the claim or we can hash it out in small claims court.
 

Raja@ASUS

ASUS Community Support
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My Asus Impact VI stopped detecting one of the dimm slots one day and i decided to RMA it. I had no reason to think they would deny it, since it really just stopped working, and the board looked perfect

So after a few weeks go by, i get an email saying they don't have a replacement board for me and that when something finally comes in stock they would send me one. Well I'm thinking "well atleast they approved my RMA"

Another week goes by and i get an email for a $170 bill for a replacement board. I call and ask or the reason and they said it was due to a scratched trace. I ask for detailed photos of the damage and i get this.



I guess we got to be super careful screwing in our heatsinks from now, because apparently scratching an area with no traces deams voiding your warranty....


ugh, i am lost for words, pissed

Memory traces run adjacent to the holes. Easy to strip the mask off and short or damage them if one is not careful installing or removing certain cooler mounts. I can't help you on this one; it is user error.
 

Eldata

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Memory traces run adjacent to the holes. Easy to strip the mask off and short or damage them if one is not careful installing or removing certain cooler mounts. I can't help you on this one; it is user error.

Yeah, I've seen them and often wondered why areas adjacent to these holes aren't designated as "keep out" areas on top and bottom layers during the PCB design phase. This would prevent traces being auto-routed there. Could go a long way in preventing issues like this.
 

Raja@ASUS

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Yeah, I've seen them and often wondered why areas adjacent to these holes aren't designated as "keep out" areas on top and bottom layers during the PCB design phase. This would prevent traces being auto-routed there. Could go a long way in preventing issues like this.

Have to route them that way otherwise trace impedance does not match spec and DRAM stability will suffer. No choice.
 

macksomerville

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So ASUS puts memory traces directly next to mounting holes, within millimeters where a required cooling device exerts pressure onto the pcb to meet mounting spec for a cpu?

Sounds like not only a bad idea, but as the damaged picture from the OP, fucking bullshit.
 

Raja@ASUS

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So ASUS puts memory traces directly next to mounting holes, within millimeters where a required cooling device exerts pressure onto the pcb to meet mounting spec for a cpu?

Sounds like not only a bad idea, but as the damaged picture from the OP, fucking bullshit.

To meet trace spec, this has to be done. Any mismatch in trace impedance causes timing errors. The right side of the socket land is the IMC output side - traces that run to the highest and lowest pins to the DRAM slots, pass by the mounting holes. Trace impedance modelling is not a subject that is easily grasped by the layman...

Most good CPU coolers come with washers to protect the PCB. I don't see any BS here.
 

jyi786

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Memory traces run adjacent to the holes. Easy to strip the mask off and short or damage them if one is not careful installing or removing certain cooler mounts. I can't help you on this one; it is user error.

Have to route them that way otherwise trace impedance does not match spec and DRAM stability will suffer. No choice.

Most good CPU coolers come with washers to protect the PCB. I don't see any BS here.

Fine, so we get the technical explanation. Question is, how do you know that YOUR techs are not the ones who did this???

From what it's coming down to, it seems like anytime an RMA is sent to Asus, we'll need to start taking high-res photos of the motherboard prior to sending it in, because there's no telling when/if your idiotic techs are damaging these, on purpose or otherwise. There is another thread on this forum with a classic example of that happening (it was 20+ pages long). If the board was indeed damaged, Asus should have notified the customer IMMEDIATELY, not 3+ weeks later.

This is the kind of behavior that is making me seriously consider moving to MSI for all my builds in the future.
 

zaniix

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Fine, so we get the technical explanation. Question is, how do you know that YOUR techs are not the ones who did this???

From what it's coming down to, it seems like anytime an RMA is sent to Asus, we'll need to start taking high-res photos of the motherboard prior to sending it in, because there's no telling when/if your idiotic techs are damaging these, on purpose or otherwise. There is another thread on this forum with a classic example of that happening (it was 20+ pages long). If the board was indeed damaged, Asus should have notified the customer IMMEDIATELY, not 3+ weeks later.

This is the kind of behavior that is making me seriously consider moving to MSI for all my builds in the future.

At no point did the OP say he didn't do the damage, in fact his last comment implies he did do that damage but didn't think it could have impacted the boards functionality.

It sucks yes, but he should have been more careful.

ASUS Tech support is lacking I agree, but if you damage the PCB you should not expect an RMA
 

jyi786

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At no point did the OP say he didn't do the damage, in fact his last comment implies he did do that damage but didn't think it could have impacted the boards functionality.

It sucks yes, but he should have been more careful.

ASUS Tech support is lacking I agree, but if you damage the PCB you should not expect an RMA

I'm not advocating this is the case. As a matter of fact, the OP very well may have damaged it. The issue here is that by Asus not responding to the customer for such a long time, it raises suspicion on Asus's part, not the customer. They actually have a documented track record of damaging things users send back and then blaming the customer for damaging it. In one case here they tried the same deal, and the guy on this forum was actually armed with high-res photos of his motherboard proving he wasn't the one who damaged it.

Doesn't instill much confidence, in my book.
 

Raja@ASUS

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I'm not advocating this is the case. As a matter of fact, the OP very well may have damaged it. The issue here is that by Asus not responding to the customer for such a long time, it raises suspicion on Asus's part, not the customer. They actually have a documented track record of damaging things users send back and then blaming the customer for damaging it. In one case here they tried the same deal, and the guy on this forum was actually armed with high-res photos of his motherboard proving he wasn't the one who damaged it.

Doesn't instill much confidence, in my book.


Its quite easy for anyone to find a product photo and pass it off as their own - so I wouldn't submit a pic unless one includes sufficient evidence.

The boards need examining properly to determine the extent of damage, that would have taken some time. Comms could have been better, but in damage cases, there will always be a gap.
 

Langly

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Its quite easy for anyone to find a product photo and pass it off as their own - so I wouldn't submit a pic unless one includes sufficient evidence.

The boards need examining properly to determine the extent of damage, that would have taken some time. Comms could have been better, but in damage cases, there will always be a gap.

It doesn't take 3 weeks to properly look at a board for damage in an RMA case. I don't buy the FUD you're spewing right now (unless you want to respond that ASUS's RMA department and techs is so understaffed they can't handle the work coming their way).

As much as I appreciate Asus having a presence on these boards to help us out, that shouldn't be necessary at all. Asus needs to get into gear to provide a solid experience to their customer in all aspects of a products lifetime. Raja you may have some amazingly designed products at Asus but as your customer I've stopped buying Asus altogether. I can't afford to spend 3+ months fighting Asus's RMA department if my product fails. I'd rather give my money to a company that will take care of me in the long run and wants my return business.
 

Raja@ASUS

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It doesn't take 3 weeks to properly look at a board for damage in an RMA case. I don't buy the FUD you're spewing right now (unless you want to respond that ASUS's RMA department and techs is so understaffed they can't handle the work coming their way).

As much as I appreciate Asus having a presence on these boards to help us out, that shouldn't be necessary at all. Asus needs to get into gear to provide a solid experience to their customer in all aspects of a products lifetime. Raja you may have some amazingly designed products at Asus but as your customer I've stopped buying Asus altogether. I can't afford to spend 3+ months fighting Asus's RMA department if my product fails. I'd rather give my money to a company that will take care of me in the long run and wants my return business.

It's not FUD, they don't reply until they get a response from the company that repairs the boards for us.

You make a good point - it is something we need to improve. Good luck with your purchases.
 

jyi786

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Its quite easy for anyone to find a product photo and pass it off as their own - so I wouldn't submit a pic unless one includes sufficient evidence.

The boards need examining properly to determine the extent of damage, that would have taken some time. Comms could have been better, but in damage cases, there will always be a gap.

I understand there are dumb users who will indeed damage the board, but what about those of us who are honest and simply need replacement for a product that fails?

Asus can always damage the board after the fact. You all have a proven track record over the past few years of doing this and then accusing the user of having damaged the product that was sent back. This is not something I'm making up; do a simple Google search on it. What is to stop Asus from damaging a product and then claiming the customer did the damage? Because from what you're saying, it's clearly nothing but hearsay for the customer, but for Asus, it's eleventybillion percent chance that the customer is the one who did the damaging and not Asus, leaving the customer with no recourse.
 

FrgMstr

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Could we please get away from the profanity? Raja is here to answer your questions and we require civilized conversation please.
 

Dan_D

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So ASUS puts memory traces directly next to mounting holes, within millimeters where a required cooling device exerts pressure onto the pcb to meet mounting spec for a cpu?

Sounds like not only a bad idea, but as the damaged picture from the OP, fucking bullshit.

ASUS isn't alone in doing this. Every motherboard manufacturer puts trace paths and surface mount components near the mounting holes. The likely hood of that increases on more complex designs where they struggle to get everything integrated onto the PCB and still fit within the targeted form factor.

You can see it right here on the GIGABYTE Z170X Gaming G1, near the CPU socket.

To meet trace spec, this has to be done. Any mismatch in trace impedance causes timing errors. The right side of the socket land is the IMC output side - traces that run to the highest and lowest pins to the DRAM slots, pass by the mounting holes. Trace impedance modelling is not a subject that is easily grasped by the layman...

Most good CPU coolers come with washers to protect the PCB. I don't see any BS here.

I've seen white papers on the subject. I won't pretend to understand all of it as I'm not an electrical engineer or anything. Based on what I saw, guidelines on PCB design are pretty strict in a number of areas.
 

Raja@ASUS

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I understand there are dumb users who will indeed damage the board, but what about those of us who are honest and simply need replacement for a product that fails?

Asus can always damage the board after the fact. You all have a proven track record over the past few years of doing this and then accusing the user of having damaged the product that was sent back. This is not something I'm making up; do a simple Google search on it. What is to stop Asus from damaging a product and then claiming the customer did the damage? Because from what you're saying, it's clearly nothing but hearsay for the customer, but for Asus, it's eleventybillion percent chance that the customer is the one who did the damaging and not Asus, leaving the customer with no recourse.

There isn't any way for either party to provide 100% proof, so nothing anyone can say really. Someone can take a pic the day they bought the product for example.

Only thing I know is, if anyone on our side were doing it and was caught, they'd be fired.
 

Langly

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Raja, just so I get this out there. I am very happy to have you here to help us out in explaining things from the Asus point of view. Your input to this community has been invaluable. I do hope that you can take to your bosses your customers point of view when it comes to a few things rma related. We appreciate all you do for us and please keep up the good work on your end.
 

Raja@ASUS

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Raja, just so I get this out there. I am very happy to have you here to help us out in explaining things from the Asus point of view. Your input to this community has been invaluable. I do hope that you can take to your bosses your customers point of view when it comes to a few things rma related. We appreciate all you do for us and please keep up the good work on your end.

We have monthly meetings on this - it all goes back!
 

Riccochet

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One more reason to take high resolution, detailed, date/time stamped pics of your hardware before sending them off for RMA.
 

BababooeyHTJ

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Raja, just so I get this out there. I am very happy to have you here to help us out in explaining things from the Asus point of view. Your input to this community has been invaluable. I do hope that you can take to your bosses your customers point of view when it comes to a few things rma related. We appreciate all you do for us and please keep up the good work on your end.

I agree but users shouldn't have to bitch here to get service. Its just cheap damage control.

That said, at least their software support seems good unlike gigabyte. I'm no fan of Asus but my next motherboard will be from Asus. Every time that I buy from another manufacturer I'm disappointed somehow.

I would never buy an Asus monitor, unless it was cheap. Or any other asus product that I don't consider disposable.

Back to a gigabyte gripe. How the fuck does every bios revision have a different issue? Upgrading to a GTX980ti was a nightmare with my z77ud5h just since I had to update the bios from one which worked well.
 

jyi786

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Back to a gigabyte gripe. How the fuck does every bios revision have a different issue? Upgrading to a GTX980ti was a nightmare with my z77ud5h just since I had to update the bios from one which worked well.

^ This.

I had a Gigabyte ONCE (motherboard) in my entire lifetime of IT. After it, I will never own one again.
 

BababooeyHTJ

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^ This.

I had a Gigabyte ONCE (motherboard) in my entire lifetime of IT. After it, I will never own one again.

Same here. I tried at least four different bios revisions. Each one had different issues. These are supposed to be updates. It doesn't even make any sense.
 

Eldata

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ASUS isn't alone in doing this. Every motherboard manufacturer puts trace paths and surface mount components near the mounting holes.
~

My gut feeling is that they're all still designing with stock coolers in mind with washers being the workaround otherwise...Easier and cheaper. I fail to believe that state-of-the-art auto-routers aren't able to address impedance, space and critical placement requirements. Makes no sense.
 

jkramp

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I fail to believe that state-of-the-art auto-routers aren't able to address impedance, space and critical placement requirements.
Hello

Even auto-routing is constraint by specifications. Also at this level of complexity auto-routing is not the final step. Human tweaking is needed for the finished design.
 

auntjemima

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My gut feeling is that they're all still designing with stock coolers in mind with washers being the workaround otherwise...Easier and cheaper. I fail to believe that state-of-the-art auto-routers aren't able to address impedance, space and critical placement requirements. Makes no sense.

My corsair AIO cooler came with plastic washers. If they were used I don't imagine this damage would have occurred. I have never had this issue on any board in the past.
 

cyclone3d

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There isn't any way for either party to provide 100% proof, so nothing anyone can say really. Someone can take a pic the day they bought the product for example.

Only thing I know is, if anyone on our side were doing it and was caught, they'd be fired.

Generally, pictures taken on digital cameras have the date/time/location data embedded unless the user specifically disables that feature. It is called EXIF.

Now if somebody goes to the trouble to edit the exif data, it would still be knowable by the modified time on the file itself.

Still not 100% foolproof, but a lot better than nothing.
 

Raja@ASUS

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Hello

Even auto-routing is constraint by specifications. Also at this level of complexity auto-routing is not the final step. Human tweaking is needed for the finished design.


Exactamundo.
 

jkramp

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So predictable. Relying on the straw man.:cool:
Hello

Auto routing is normally a means to fast track a layout to a point where the designer can concentrate on the critical aspects of the layout. That you commented and put forth an opinion regarding a field that you obviously have no experience with is not a reason to reply in a derogatory an argumentative nature.
 

Eldata

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Hello

Auto routing is normally a means to fast track a layout to a point where the designer can concentrate on the critical aspects of the layout. That you commented and put forth an opinion regarding a field that you obviously have no experience with is not a reason to reply in a derogatory an argumentative nature.

Not even going there, if the original design uses hole to trace clearances based on the premise that either a stock cooler or washers will be used, then auto-routing capabilities, or lack thereof, and criticality of layout all become irrelevant (straw man incinerated).

All it takes is a cursory examination of a relatively simple (no space issues) motherboard to see how the area around mounting holes, where metal fasteners are traditionally expected to be used, is treated differently to the area around cooler holes where non-metal fasteners/washers are expected. Being close to memory sockets or complexity of layout has nothing to do with it.

So why is there a problem if non-metal fasteners/washers are expected? Because newbies build rigs and all coolers do not come with washers. The Corsair cooler I have didn't come with washers and allows the metal cooler standoffs to make contact with the top layer solder mask during installation. The Cooler Master one came with washers pre-applied to one side of the metal standoffs but an inexperienced installer could easily turn them the wrong way.

Designs that fly in the face of Murphy's Law are poor designs and in this case we are seeing them from both the motherboard and cooler makers. The motherboard makers' excuse is a lousy one and it'll probably be business as usual as long as the damage is easily identified and the user pays for it.
 
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ManofGod

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This issue is one very big reason I stay away from Asus. I consider support to be very important and is why I went with an EVGA 980Ti and not an Asus brand model. I look at the issues people have had over the years with Asus support and stay away.

No, not every company has poor support.
 

Raja@ASUS

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Not even going there, if the original design uses hole to trace clearances based on the premise that either a stock cooler or washers will be used, then auto-routing capabilities, or lack thereof, and criticality of layout all become irrelevant (straw man incinerated).



There it is, the big "If". The assumption that all our boards are designed with stock coolers in mind, is just that, an assumption - and an inaccurate one at that. The reality is, we have very few stock coolers on any of the R&D lines. There is a mixture of cooling solutions on the R&D lines, from air, all the way to Ln2 - and all of them are used during the R&D process. I visit and work alongside those teams at least once a year before every chipset launch. One of our designs performs up to DDR4-6000 in simulations - reality is a long way from that, however. In others, some memory ICs do better, while others struggle because the IMC does not have requisite automation or manual adjustment to cater for the impedance change. All changes are delicate, and simulations/theory versus reality can be two different things. This is how one comes to understand the difference between assumption and real platform limitations that don't allow a perfect world.

My gut feeling is that they're all still designing with stock coolers in mind with washers being the workaround otherwise...Easier and cheaper. I fail to believe that state-of-the-art auto-routers aren't able to address impedance, space and critical placement requirements. Makes no sense.

Gut feelings and real engineering limitations are two different things. Don't rely on gut feelings regarding engineering limitations. It's a bad habit. Better to make something, and then check what it does.

Designs that fly in the face of Murphy's Law are poor designs and in this case we are seeing them from both the motherboard and cooler makers. The motherboard makers' excuse is a lousy one and it'll probably be business as usual as long as the damage is easily identified and the user pays for it.


Lousy only if one has limited understanding of what they are asking for, or talking about.
 
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Raja@ASUS

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So predictable. Relying on the straw man.:cool:

The limitations are real - whether you choose to believe them or not is irrelevant.

Feel free to share your perfect motherboard with the market when you've made it. Show all the motherboard engineers how they are doing things wrong!


There are always people that make mistakes or those predisposed towards misadventure. While shooting for idealism is noble, constraining things for the lowest denominator is not always possible. When you make your first motherboard, you'll come to realize that it is a game of compromises.
 
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