Asking for Thoughts and Advice (Long Post)

[ToranagaSama]

Hello everyone,

OK, I've got a problem and an issue. I consider myself a power user and have a good bit of self-taught knowledge regarding computers and computing. Yet, I'm not a professional and, am certainly not an electrical engineer.

So here's my situation, over the past 5 years I've gone through about 5 PSUs! At this point I'm not a happy camper. Now to be fair, I live in NYC, and two went during the big blackout a couple of years ago, one in my system and another in my GF's computer.

So, we're talking 3 (maybe 4 memory fails) PSUs in roughly FIVE years! All of them have been "quality" PSUs. If I recall correctly, all were Antec, save one which was an Enermax EG465P-VE---this one went during the blackout. So, we come to just a week or so ago, the PSU I replaced the Enermax with is an Antec True 430. After the blackout, I needed a PSU asap, so retail was the only option, and Antec, as you all know, is the best *retail* option. By retail I mean Best Buy!

From the getgo, the True 430 wasn't measuring up to the Enermax, simply put it wasn't able to power my ridiculous system:

Addtronics 7890a heavily modifed case with enough fans to power a boeing 747! w. anywhere from 5 to 7 fans going simultaneously. Along w. a minum of 5 hdds. When installed the True 430 I had 6 or 7 (I forget). An Abit IC7-G with a P4 2.4c oc'd 12x200 and a 9700 pro, a gig of Corsair 3200xl, SB 5.1 w. breakout box; 2 CD-Roms and a Vantec Tornardo on the hs and a fan upgrade for the GPU as well. I sure I'm forgetting a couple of things.

The True 430 couldn't handle all that, though the Enermax did (mostly anyway).

A few days ago, my GF said she smelt something, you know how GFs go, I didn't really pay heed, but I did smell it, burnt acrid sort of smell. You know electronics burning. I thought it came from outside considering I was sitting next to the window. The smell passed and I didn't give it much thought.

Well, the next morning, maybe it was the morning after that, I was in the middle of typing an email, and the front fans (2 x 120s) just stopped! for no apparent reason. The system kept running, but I started freaking expecting, BEEP, BEEP, BEEP, any second; but nothing. My mind was racing trying to figure WTF was happening, before I shut it down. I listend hard, not that you need too, but I could hear the Vantec whurring away (CPU is safe for the moment!). I've got a cutout on the left side of the case with another 120mm and it was still going, so I pulled the case out and checked the rear. Two fans back there both going, BUT the PSU fan was not!! I shut it down immediately.

I pondered the situation for a few minutes and then, attempted a boot. The system would attempt to boot, MB light on, but the front fans wouldn't move and neither did the PSU fan, the system shut itself down after just a few seconds. I tried a few times with the same result.

Obviously, I pegged the PSU as the culprit, but it was the weirdess thing. I've troubleshooted a number of PC problems, but never experienced this.

Anyway, I ran over to Best Buy and picked up another *Antec*, this time the NeoHE 500. The system powered on and booted into windows, there's a *but* which I'll get to in a minute. Well, the system is running better than ever, not only running all the hardware (I must be slipping), but also cooler with better performance overall. Oh, did I mention that at the time the PSU gave up the ghost, my CPU temp was 138F!!! )

Well, problem solved except that like a great many, the NeoHE and my Abit board are having some small issues. It takes at least THREE boot attempts for the system to come alive, and then the BIOS *says* it doesn't recognize my CPU. It s/b showing as a 3.0 speed cpu, but rather it just shows the 12x200 speed. That's not a real issue, as I just hit F1 to continue and it boots into Windows and all is well. As I always intended the NeoHE is going back to Best Buy, anyway, as soon as I order another PSU, even if there were no issues, but particularly so now.

Sorry about the long email, just wanted to outline things, because here's my real issue. In trying to research what happened with the True 430 PSU and in preparation to choose a *new* BETTER and more appropriate PSU I looked at the stats for it and my old Enermax:

The Antec which was supposed to be supplying a *true* 430W is only capable of maxing out the 12v rail with 20A and min is 0.8A (per the PSU label). The max wattage is 410.

The Enermax doesn't state a minimum, simply 20A for the 12v. Total Power is 432W

True 430 maximums: 5V = 36A and 3.3V = 28A
Enermax EG465P-VE: 5V = 44A and 3.3V = 38A

Not sure how all that plays out in my system, but the Enermax appears from the labels to be the better PSU and helps to explain why the Enermax handled my system with greater ease.

The one thing I feel sure about is that the high temps I was experiencing at the time of the True 430's failure (or perhaps it was the evening before) was the ultimate culprit. The True 430's power band must have sank as the temps rose resulting in failure. I don't know why, but I didn't take a whiff of the Antec until this morning, but its filled with that *burnt* electronic smell.

I still have to check, but if its not within warranty, I'm going to open it up just for curiousity's sake. How long should I wait before its safe? Anyone have any suggestions of what exactly I might find or should look for? Am I on the right train of thought as to what happened or could it have been just bad capacitors(??) finally giving way?

OK, here's what I **really** getting at:

I took a look at the Output ratings for the NeoHE 500 (from the Antec site) and here's what it says:

Max load:
3.3V = 23A
5V = 17A
12V1 = 17A
12V2 = 17A
12V3 = 17A

Available Power:
3.3V = 75.9W
5V = 85W
12V1 =
12V2 =
12V3 = (total) 456W

http://www.antec.com/specs/NeoHE500_spe.html
Antec.com - NeoHE 500 SpecSheet

Can someone explain for a layman, how/why the 17A of the NeoHE 500 is powering my system better than the True 430, as well as the old Enermax?

Thank you in advance. I just want to get a good grip on all this, as I am tired of buying PSUs!!!

BTW, I'm trying to decide between the Seasonic S12 600W and the PC Power and Cooling 510 Deluxe SLI. I'm leaning toward spring the dough for the 510, if for no other reason than simple piece of mind!!!

Thanks for reading the long post!!!!!!

PS,

Here's the Spec Sheet for the 510:
http://www.pcpowercooling.com/products/assets/T51SLI/specs.pdf
specs.pdf (application/pdf Object)

and for the Seasonic:
http://www.seasonicusa.com/images/features/S12-Seasonic.pdf
S12-Seasonic.pdf (application/pdf Object)

I don't know if I reading or looking at the right info, but it appears that the Seasonic S12-600 has 2 12V rails with 17A and 16A respectively.

The 510 Deluxe SLI has 2 12V rails with 34A and 38A respectively.

Do I have this right? If so, is it correct that the 510 has a lot more to offer than the S12-600 and would suit my system and usage now and in the near term future.

I plan to upgrade over the next several months, GPU, CPU/MB along with another 300 Gig HD to go with the 3 x 80 G, a 120G and a 300G. I'll probably add another 120G to match the one I have. So right now I have 5 HDDs and will probably add two more over 12 to 18 months time.

Thanks again, just writing this helps to think it through.

 

[aznx]

The NeoHE has 3, count them, 3 12v rails. 456W/12v = 38A at max load because you can't just add up 17A+17A+17A=51A. Also since the 12v has 3 lines, the rails are more stable. 1 line is dedicated to the CPU, another for the GPU, etc. The NeoHE does have problems with certain motherboards.

Also I'm pretty sure the 510 doesn't have a 12v rail with 34A and another with 38A. I think that's just for max/min load. Max (34A) Min (38A) or something like that. I'd get the 510 since it has more molex connectors.

 

[Sieravor]

The PC Power and Cooling is, by far, the best power supply I have ever seen. I use it myself. I recommend it to everyone. The 510W rating is well below what this PSU is capable of producing. I've had it at 600+ and it performed like a superstar. Seriously though, this thing is rock solid. It's not as sexy as some other PSU's, but when it comes to raw reliable and clean power, the PCP&P is SOTA.

 

[madmat]

I can tell you easily why the front fans quit, you had them hooked to the "Fan Only" lines in the PSU which is powered by the same line that powers the PSU fan.

I don't know how big the fans in question were in terms of draw but Antec only recommends a certain draw on that line and you were likely right at it if not a bit over and it eventually killed that circuit in the PSU.

Have you tried clearing the CMOS in the mobo? Hopefully when you got the PSU toasty it didn't lose stability enough to send damaging current through the motherboard.

 

[ToranagaSama]

@madhat
Thanks for the comments, but like I said, the Antec's been running since the NYC blackout of 2003, approx. 30 months ago. The fan only connector can't even reach those fans. Each 120mm fan is on a separate line, if I recall correctly. I realized the fan only line was rather enemic after the initial install, I hooked up the Vantec Tornado to it and nothing happened! I had to hook the Tornado up to a regular connector.

Yes, resetting the CMOS is a good idea, but I'm going to wait until the new PSU arrives and try that first. Not looking forward to reinputting all my BIOS settings, particularly since the system is running better than ever---which is a strong hint that I was woefully underpowered. This fact, along with a high ambient temp in my cramped overheated NYC apartment is gotta be it. We're having a little winter heatwave, on the day in question, NYC was a balmy 60F in JANUARY! Unfortunately, nobody told my landlord and the heat remained the same as if it were 25F!!

I've been up all night researching, here's a couple of things I found:

@aznx
Yes, the NeoHE has three rails, Antec is a good manufacturer, but they too often hype things a bit, and from what I've read they giveth and they taketh, often simultaneously. Three rails are great can be great, as long as you don't have too many periperhals.

On the other hand, for someone like me hooking up 6 HDDs or more, having three rails with a *low* amperage (17) isn't going to be much benefit at all. Especially, with a GPU that has a strong draw, forget SLI.

Here's a direct quote from a review I read:

"Note: The maximum combined load for the +12V1, +12V2 and +12V3 outputs is 38A"
[Emphasis Added.]

Re the 510 deluxe sli,

Also I'm pretty sure the 510 doesn't have a 12v rail with 34A and another with 38A. I think that's just for max/min load. Max (34A) Min (38A) or something like that. I'd get the 510 since it has more molex connectors.

I've been staring at spec sheets all night. Yup two rails and those are the amperages for each, 34 and 38 respectively. THIS is what really sets the PSU apart from ALL the rest!! (Also, probably why its so damned expensive.)

Here's another quoted tidbit of info from a different review site:

"...two rails that work together to make sure amperage is delivered to demanding products..."

I take it to mean that the 510 has some *load balancing* circuitry that compensates for placing 3 plus HDDs on a single line. For folks like myself with this is great plus!!! Just look at all the connections, 6 SATA, 8 Molex, 1 mini (floppy). Absolutely, 34 and 38 on each rail. I believe the literature stated that the psu could run TEN hdds.

Equally impressive is the 510's, 510 continuous watts at 50C with Peak Power--the company rates at 650W.

Super important if you're booting a system with 5 or more HDDs. I don't know what my dead Antec's peak power is/was, but it wasn't enough to boot my *complete* system. Interestingly, my old dead Enermax could.

All that with a 5 year warranty and you can have them *customize* the thing (not sure how much that'll cost though); I'd rather have 10 Molex and 4 SATA with the cable lenghts matched to my enormous case.

Anyone here w. a company *customized* PC Power and Cooling PSU?

Can you guess which PSU I've pretty much decided upon?

 

[svet-am]

obviously, you know what you're doing. you have a good grasp on what PSU's are supposed to do and how they should perform.

here's my take on why they are dying. what kind of area do you live in? that is, are the houses in your area 'quality' houses? i've been building computers for years and never had any problems -- until I met my wife. when i started spending long stretches of time at my wife's parents' (before we got married), i'd take my PC along with me. in less than a year, i went through TWO good Antec power supplies.

it turned out that the culprit was their house. not only is it wired poorly, but it's got some nasty ground loops. The ground loops are bad enough that ground in their house was carrying about 1.2Volt. After discussing this with her parents', they told me that when they built the house (the late 1960's), they never liked the job that the electricians had done, but never knew it was that bad. then, they told me about how they'd been through four dryers and three electric stoves because they 'just quit'.

Since I'm a computer engineer (which effectively means I'm an electrical engineer who knows how to code), he and I cut the power to the house one weekend and went around looking for the bad grounds. We fixed the ones that we could and then hired a professional electrician to come and retrofit the ones that were just too much of a pain for us to deal with.

long story short is that now that the grounds are fixed, all of the electrical equipment in the house is much happier and I haven't lost a single power supply in the past three years. you might want to look into something similar.

 

[aznx]

@madhat
Thanks for the comments, but like I said, the Antec's been running since the NYC blackout of 2003, approx. 30 months ago. The fan only connector can't even reach those fans. Each 120mm fan is on a separate line, if I recall correctly. I realized the fan only line was rather enemic after the initial install, I hooked up the Vantec Tornado to it and nothing happened! I had to hook the Tornado up to a regular connector.

Yes, resetting the CMOS is a good idea, but I'm going to wait until the new PSU arrives and try that first. Not looking forward to reinputting all my BIOS settings, particularly since the system is running better than ever---which is a strong hint that I was woefully underpowered. This fact, along with a high ambient temp in my cramped overheated NYC apartment is gotta be it. We're having a little winter heatwave, on the day in question, NYC was a balmy 60F in JANUARY! Unfortunately, nobody told my landlord and the heat remained the same as if it were 25F!!

I've been up all night researching, here's a couple of things I found:

@aznx
Yes, the NeoHE has three rails, Antec is a good manufacturer, but they too often hype things a bit, and from what I've read they giveth and they taketh, often simultaneously. Three rails are great can be great, as long as you don't have too many periperhals.

On the other hand, for someone like me hooking up 6 HDDs or more, having three rails with a *low* amperage (17) isn't going to be much benefit at all. Especially, with a GPU that has a strong draw, forget SLI.

Here's a direct quote from a review I read:

"Note: The maximum combined load for the +12V1, +12V2 and +12V3 outputs is 38A"
[Emphasis Added.]

Re the 510 deluxe sli,



I've been staring at spec sheets all night. Yup two rails and those are the amperages for each, 34 and 38 respectively. THIS is what really sets the PSU apart from ALL the rest!! (Also, probably why its so damned expensive.)

Here's another quoted tidbit of info from a different review site:

"...two rails that work together to make sure amperage is delivered to demanding products..."

I take it to mean that the 510 has some *load balancing* circuitry that compensates for placing 3 plus HDDs on a single line. For folks like myself with this is great plus!!! Just look at all the connections, 6 SATA, 8 Molex, 1 mini (floppy). Absolutely, 34 and 38 on each rail. I believe the literature stated that the psu could run TEN hdds.

Equally impressive is the 510's, 510 continuous watts at 50C with Peak Power--the company rates at 650W.

Super important if you're booting a system with 5 or more HDDs. I don't know what my dead Antec's peak power is/was, but it wasn't enough to boot my *complete* system. Interestingly, my old dead Enermax could.

All that with a 5 year warranty and you can have them *customize* the thing (not sure how much that'll cost though); I'd rather have 10 Molex and 4 SATA with the cable lenghts matched to my enormous case.

Anyone here w. a company *customized* PC Power and Cooling PSU?

Can you guess which PSU I've pretty much decided upon?

I'm pretty sure it doesn't have 2 rails with 34A and 38A respectively, not to trample on your pride. Because in order to have that, it would be atleast 408W on 12v rail 1 and 456W on 12v rail 2...that's 1KW right there, I don't think so.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ShowI...510 SLI-PFC ATX12V 510W Power Supply - Retail

As seen on the picture, 12v rail @ 34A. So I'm pretty sure the 38A means peak power at boot or something.

 

[madmat]

The 510 SLI only has 1 12V rail. To get multiple 12V rails you'll have to step up to the 850W or 1KW PSU's.

This is directly from PC P&C's site for the 510 SLI:

* 510W (650W peak) @ 50°C (industrial rated)
* 2X more actual power than "500W" home PSUs
* Heavy-duty caps, inductors, heat sinks, etc.
* Premium sag and surge protection (.99 PFC)
* Powerful +12VDC output (34A, 38A peak)
* Ultra-tight voltage regulation (+VDC@ 1%)
* Super-clean output (+VDC ripple @ 0.5%)
* New, quieter fan speed control circuit
* PCI Express, SLI, and 955/dual-core ready

Note that it doesn't say "rails" plural, it says rail.

Now, on the 850 it says the following:

* 850W Continuous (950W Peak) @ 50°C
* Fits Std. ATX Cases (20” min. depth)
* +12VDC Rails Total 54A (60A Peak)
* High Efficiency (85%) With .99 PFC
* Ultra-Tight Regulation (+VDC @ 1%)
* Amazingly Quiet Cooling System
* 15 Drive Connectors (incl. 6 SATA)
* Dual PCI Express Video Connectors
* EPS12V, SLI, and SSI Compatibility
* 5-Year Warranty; Unbeatable Support

Notice the pluralization on the 12V: "Rails". This PSU has 3 rails:

Output:
+5V @ 30A
+12V1 @ 16A
+12V2 @ 16A
+12V3 @ 30A
+12V1,V2,V3 = 54A (60A peak)
-12V @ 0.8A
+3.3V @ 30A
+5VSB @ 3A
continuous = 850W
peak = 950W

On the 510 SLI we see this:

Output:
+5V @ 40A
+12V @ 34A/38A
-5V @ 0.3A
-12V @ 2A
+3.3V @ 30A
+5VSB @ 3A
continuous = 510W
peak = 650W

I built a PC with an 850W recently, it's a very powerful PSU but it's also the loudest PSU I've ever seen. I've never played with a 510SLI but I can't help but wonder if it's not equally as loud. Not that being loud is a bad thing but if you're trying to build a super quiet PC then you're going to find that it might be sort of loud, I know the 850W was louder than 3x120mm and 1x92mm fans.

 

[Crosshairs]

Get the PCP&C you wont be dissapointed.....and get a UPS also.....I would hate to see anyone kill a ~ $200.00 PSU because of dirty power.....

 

[dchrsf]

Jesus..20mins later.. Good Read!

Shows the importance of clean power! I'm gettin a UPS! You can really learn alot from this forum!

Good luck.