Are LCD black levels really this bad? (w/screenshots)

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PKFGimpy

Limp Gawd
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Mar 4, 2005
Messages
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I've been gaming on my Dell 2405 FPW for over a year now, and over all I've been fairly happy with it. However, once in a while I pull out games that are a little on the dark side (Quake IV, Prey... any game that uses the Doom III engine) and while playing them I'm constantly wondering if the game looks the way it is supposed to. I realize that dark levels on LCD's aren't nearly as good as CRT's, but I've never been certain how exactly these poor dark levels manifest themself.

So tonight I sat my old CRT up on my desk and sat it side by side with my LCD... and I'm kind of suprised with what I'm seeing.

I've taken a few snapshots with my camera that show the differences I am seeing between my LCD and the CRT in the game Prey. For now I'm just going to post the one that demonstrates the problem I'm seeing the most clearly.

Essentially, the problem I'm seeing is a complete loss of color/brightness information on the screen. Where the CRT shows many small details in the dark scenes, the LCD completely washes them out into a flat black color. I was under the impression that while the dark levels on the LCD's are inferior, it still displays the same number of colors on the screen.... just brighter. But it seems as if the LCD is completely missing out on the darker shades that the CRT displays. Also note that these screen captures were taken by running the two displays in clone mode.

Here is the original CRT screenshot
ScreenCap_CRT.JPG


And this is the original LCD screenshot
ScreenCap_LCD.JPG


And to make it easier to see the difference I've enhanced the gamma for these two versions of the same screenshots.

Gamma enhanced CRT screenshot.
ScreenCap_CRT_PlusGamma.JPG


Gamme enhanced LCD screenshot.
ScreenCap_LCD_PlusGamma.JPG


If you compare the screenshots you'll notice that the LCD is missing most of the details that the CRT is able to display. I'm hoping that perhaps some slight adjustments to video settings could allow the LCD to show the same detail that the CRT shows... but it strikes me as odd that the LCD is missing these details since the displays are running in clone mode, and they should be recieving exactly the same color/brightness information.

I have also noticed that the LCD renders dark shades very strangely. I don't have a good screen capture it right now, but sometimes the LCD doesn't display a smooth progression from light to dark... instead it progresses in blocky segments of color and it looks atrocious. (Maybe i'll try and get some screen caps of this)

Also, since the LCD is a digitial signal... what exactly is happening with that color information? Is it just being discarded?

So can anybody enlighten me on why the CRT and LCD render these darks scenes so differently? Do other people have these problems? I find dark games look rather hideous on my LCD compared to my CRT and its kind of depressing :(
 
Here are some screenshots of the wierd shading issue that i'm encountering. I've increased the gamma on them... it doesn't look that bad in game, but it still looks way worse than the CRT.

Is something wrong?

CRT original:
CRTShading.JPG


LCD original:
LCDShading.JPG


CRT Gamma enhanced:
CRTShading_exposure.JPG


LCD Gamma enhanced:
(Notice the very un-smooth transition from one shade to the next)
LCDShading_exposure.JPG
 
My cheapo dell 17" display looks better in games next to my cheapo unbranded CRT monitor. The black levels look almost the same IMHO, maybe your settings are just messed up?
 
Nothing wrong with your LCD. LCDs are notoriously bad wrt black levels--they crush shadow detail that CRTs render without problems. The better LCDs display less crushed shadow detail, but it's still one of the main weaknesses of LCD technology in general.
 
Hehe... SuncMaster... hehehehe...

Anyway! True, LCDs ARE worse than CRTs. However, it varies greatly from model to model. My VX2025wm, for instance, looks excellent in black scenes. The LCD you're showing looks like some of the worst I've ever seen. Though whether that's good news or bad for you remains to be seen. ;)
 
The backlight leakage on that Dell is horrible. Really noticable there in the screenies. That isnt helping with dark scenes at all I can tell you that.
 
One the lcd with the best black levels I have seen so far is the sony SDM-HS95 which have a contrast ratio of 1000:1. The screen is also glossy which help colors to be even more contrasted. I had a second "classic" tft screen on the same machine and on this one black colors seems to be gray/sad, even with good luminosity/contrast settings.
 
LOCO LAPTOP said:
um my samsung SuncMaster930B doesnt do it...
Click to expand...
right... That monitor, the one I have(see my sig), is one of the most notorious for it with it's 6bit per color channel TN panel (producing 18bit color total) and usings ome dithering tricks gets upto only 16.2million color vs. 16.7million with other LCDs and near infinite with analog CRTs....

And it's definitely the extreme whitse and blacks that suffer the most...

:LOL:

That Dell 2407 should be alot better that what the rest of us with lower end monitors suffer with.
 
It appears the backlight bleeding is more apparent on your unit than most, or you took the picture from a very odd perspective which captured the bad angles of the display.

There's also some funky gradient effecting going on. Colors look like they're banding really bad. I have a Samsung 191N that displays far better results than the one you shown. If a few days of tweaking does not cure what ails it, return it for another unit or consider a different brand/model. As it stands, it's not acceptable if you care at all about your gaming experience.
 
Tigrou said:
One the lcd with the best black levels I have seen so far is the sony SDM-HS95 which have a contrast ratio of 1000:1. The screen is also glossy which help colors to be even more contrasted. I had a second "classic" tft screen on the same machine and on this one black colors seems to be gray/sad, even with good luminosity/contrast settings.
Click to expand...

Mine isn't that great (SDM-HS95). The monitor and video drivers take quite a bit of tweaking to not look like shit.
 
Hmm, I'll have to tweak some more I suppose.

My Dell actually has almost no backlight bleeding. Remember, I took those photos into photoshop and drastically increased the gamma to make the differences more apparent. Also, I think the camera picks up more of the backlight than the naked eye does (probably do to the exposure length).

I'm curious to hear from other Dell 2405 owners. Do you lose color definition at very dark dark colors like I do? Any tips on how I should go about tweak my settings to get the best results?

Or maybe I'll just use the CRT for FPS's and the Dell for other things :eek:
 
I have a 2405 and it's no where near that bad. Sure the black levels aren't great, but I just finished Prey last week it didn't have any problems. Shadow detail could improve, and black is more like a really dark grey (because of backlight leakage), but overall I wouldn't trade-in my LCD for a CRT. It just frees up so much space since it has a much smaller footprint. I don't even think a 24" CRT would fit on my desk.

One thing I have noticed is that LCD's with a glossy finish tend to display black better, at least it appears that way. Although I don't think I could use a glossy monitor full-time. I have a glossy screen on my laptop, fun for movies and games, but not for surfing and doing work. Strains my eyes.
 
THe LCD black level problem will not be solved, yes it will improve however SED will be mainstream before that happens. There are technologies that will solve the issue to some degree (brightstar, zoned LED, per pixel LED backlighting) however non are viable or feasable for a $1000-$3000 monitor or even a $5000 one.
 
kleox64 said:
THe LCD black level problem will not be solved, yes it will improve however SED will be mainstream before that happens. There are technologies that will solve the issue to some degree (brightstar, zoned LED, per pixel LED backlighting) however non are viable or feasable for a $1000-$3000 monitor or even a $5000 one.
Click to expand...
"SED has been 2 years away from production for the last 5 years.

If you really don't want to buy a new TV, I suppose waiting for SED is a good excuse."

That's one of my favorite posts that I found on another forum :p.
 
Can anyone explain what is happening to the color information that the LCD isn't displaying? Like, I can make out I would guess many tens, or maybe hundreds of different colors/shades that are being displayed on the CRT and are not on the LCD at all. Where did this information go?

Like, does the LCD get the data and go " *blarg* I can't display this! It's too dark!. I'll just throw it out."
 
Menelmarar said:
right... That monitor, the one I have(see my sig), is one of the most notorious for it with it's 6bit per color channel TN panel (producing 18bit color total) and usings ome dithering tricks gets upto only 16.2million color vs. 16.7million with other LCDs and near infinite with analog CRTs....

And it's definitely the extreme whitse and blacks that suffer the most...

:LOL:

That Dell 2407 should be alot better that what the rest of us with lower end monitors suffer with.
Click to expand...

and you can say whatever you like, but the blacks on my 930B are very black.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/TechnoloG/930B.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/TechnoloG/wow.jpg
as you can see.

How you can have one and not have black blacks is beyond me. I've had mine set up right beside a crt and its been fine.
 
I went through the same thing when comparing my Dell 2001FP to a 21" Sony G520P CRT, Although LCDs have improved they still cant hold a candle to CRTs when it comes to black level details, Anyone that says differently is misinformed ..its just the nature of LCD technology. Just about any LCD will display black as black when theres a decent amount of white present in the picture, such as the screenshots Tutelary's posted above, Its when your viewing truely dark scenes in games or movies when you start to see the big differance between LCD & CRT.

My camera settings exaggerated the contrast / white levels but you can still get an idea of the black level differences.
g520p_2001fp.jpg


LCD_Closeup.jpg

CRT_G520P_Closeup.jpg
 
Tutelary said:
and you can say whatever you like, but the blacks on my 930B are very black.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/TechnoloG/930B.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/TechnoloG/wow.jpg
as you can see.

How you can have one and not have black blacks is beyond me. I've had mine set up right beside a crt and its been fine.
Click to expand...
how do those pics back up your claim one bit? your 930B does the same thing with blacks as the op monitors does. maybe you just dont notice it in games but does. i have used a 930B and the blacks were WORSE than the op posted.
 
mathesar said:
I went through the same thing when comparing my Dell 2001FP to a 21" Sony G520P CRT, Although LCDs have improved they still cant hold a candle to CRTs when it comes to black level details, Anyone that says differently is misinformed ..its just the nature of LCD technology. Just about any LCD will display black as black when theres a decent amount of white present in the picture, such as the screenshots Tutelary's posted above, Its when your viewing truely dark scenes in games or movies when you start to see the big differance between LCD & CRT.

My camera settings exaggerated the contrast / white levels but you can still get an idea of the black level differences.
Click to expand...

arent those dells something shitty like 400:1? hah. yah, I checked, the dell 2001fp is 400:1, please dont bring it out as an example for ANYTHING, thanks.
 
trek554 said:
how do those pics back up your claim one bit? your 930B does the same thing with blacks as the op monitors does. maybe you just dont notice it in games but does. i have used a 930B and the blacks were WORSE than the op posted.
Click to expand...

how do they back up my claim? because the black is black...subtle variations might not be as nice as a crt, but dont say you arent getting black out of a decent monitor, you are. If you want to bitch about something, be specific, and bitch about shades of grey.
 
Tutelary said:
arent those dells something shitty like 400:1? hah. yah, I checked, the dell 2001fp is 400:1, please dont bring it out as an example for ANYTHING, thanks.
Click to expand...

You're fooling yourself if you think even a 1500:1 LCD can come close to what a CRT is capable of.
 
mathesar said:
You're fooling yourself if you think even a 1500:1 LCD can come close to what a CRT is capable of.
Click to expand...

you just took like 6 pics of a 400:1 Dell lcd to defend your point. Thats like the pisspot of lcds, seriously. I would think BY NOW the 'LCDs suck for gaming' memo would have reached everyone.

I dont mind the whole "lcd vs. crt" debate, but no one should be gaming on an lcd to start with, so why bitch about it? The variations in dark colors are the least of your worries with an lcd and gaming.

That being said, dont say you dont get black on the desktop with a decent monitor, you most certainly do.
 
Tutelary said:
how do they back up my claim? because the black is black...subtle variations might not be as nice as a crt, but dont say you arent getting black out of a decent monitor, you are. If you want to bitch about something, be specific, and bitch about shades of grey.
Click to expand...
we can call it whatever we want but all lcd monitors look like what the op posted in games. some are just worse than others. i took the 930B back because of the very thing the op is complaining about.
 
mathesar said:
I went through the same thing when comparing my Dell 2001FP to a 21" Sony G520P CRT, Although LCDs have improved they still cant hold a candle to CRTs when it comes to black level details, Anyone that says differently is misinformed ..its just the nature of LCD technology. Just about any LCD will display black as black when theres a decent amount of white present in the picture, such as the screenshots Tutelary's posted above, Its when your viewing truely dark scenes in games or movies when you start to see the big differance between LCD & CRT.

My camera settings exaggerated the contrast / white levels but you can still get an idea of the black level differences.
g520p_2001fp.jpg


LCD_Closeup.jpg
Click to expand...
Why are you showing those pics as "examples of black levels" in LCD and CRT ??
I see a Dell LCD with a shitty foggy pic----and a CRT with a clear pic.
You have a shitty or poorly-adjusted Dell LCD.
Get rid of it or adjust the pic to clear the fog.

Not one of my LCD monitors has ever had a shitty foggy screen like your Dell LCD has.
I've had Sceptre 15" LCD
IBM 15" LCD
Dell 17" LCD
Dell 19" LCD
Dell 20.1" LCD
Viewsonic 21.3" LCD
HP 23" LCD.
Not ONE ever had a foggy crappy pic like your Dell LCD has in those pics you are showing.
Shit-can your LCD or tune it.
Hell, just shitcan it.
 
Zak said:
Why are you showing those pics as "examples of black levels" in LCD and CRT ??
I see a Dell LCD with a shitty foggy pic----and a CRT with a clear pic.
You have a shitty or poorly-adjusted Dell LCD.
Get rid of it or adjust the pic to clear the fog.

Not one of my LCD monitors has ever had a shitty foggy screen like your Dell LCD has.
I've had Sceptre 15" LCD
IBM 15" LCD
Dell 17" LCD
Dell 19" LCD
Dell 20.1" LCD
Viewsonic 21.3" LCD
HP 23" LCD.
Not ONE ever had a foggy crappy pic like your Dell LCD has in those pics you are showing.
Shit-can your LCD or tune it.
Hell, just shitcan it.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned above my camera settings wernt ideal, both monitors looked better in person (minus the black level difference) , I already "shitcanned" the LCD and bought a 24" Sony CRT anyhow ;)

EDIT: And yes the LCD was adjusted properly in fact the brightness was set at 0 in the picture, the black levels were just awful on it period.
 
Tutelary said:
and you can say whatever you like, but the blacks on my 930B are very black.
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/TechnoloG/930B.jpg
http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j65/TechnoloG/wow.jpg
as you can see.

How you can have one and not have black blacks is beyond me. I've had mine set up right beside a crt and its been fine.
Click to expand...
I don't think you have any idea what this thread is complaining about. They aren't complaining about blacks appearance lacking in high contrast scenes. They are complaining about the poor level of solid black on lcds and the crush that goes along with that poor black level. Poor black levels compared to crts are inherent to the technology at this point and it's part of the reason why people prefer plasmas for movie watching (they have slightly better blacks) and yearn for sed to make its long awaited appearance. Sure his camera exaggerates the problem, but that doesn't stop it from being a reality.
 
mathesar said:
I already "shitcanned" the LCD and bought a 24" Sony CRT anyhow ;)
Click to expand...
You might be happier with LCD monitors this fall (Sept).
A poster here says NEC will ship a 26" LCD for ~$1400 that will exceed the color-capabilities of even CRT monitors.
He said LCD's typically will do 65% of Adobe Color gamut, and CRT's typically do 85% of Adobe Color.
He claims this new 26" NEC LCD will do about 92% of Adobe colors.
Wow. I'm waiting to see it before I make my next move.
 
SonComet said:
and it's part of the reason why people prefer plasmas for movie watching
Click to expand...

Only plasma is ass. I'm pretty far from seeing people yearning for plasma sets, especially with the associated plasma bleed. You're projecting.
 
Zak said:
You might be happier with LCD monitors this fall (Sept).
A poster here says NEC will ship a 26" LCD for ~$1400 that will exceed the color-capabilities of even CRT monitors.
He said LCD's typically will do 65% of Adobe Color gamut, and CRT's typically do 85% of Adobe Color.
He claims this new 26" NEC LCD will do about 92% of Adobe colors.
Wow. I'm waiting to see it before I make my next move.
Click to expand...

Only problem with accurate LCDs like that is they tend to have slow response times, but we'll see.
 
Comparing 1 model/brand of LCD to a CRT is pointless. The dell LCD does not stand for all LCD's that are currently available. LCD technology differs among panels unlike CRT technology which is pretty much the same which is why this thread is pointless.
 
Shottah_king said:
Comparing 1 model/brand of LCD to a CRT is pointless. The dell LCD does not stand for all LCD's that are currently available. LCD technology differs among panels unlike CRT technology which is pretty much the same which is why this thread is pointless.
Click to expand...

If you would actually read through this and many other threads (on various forums) you'd realize this is a very common complaint with LCD technology.
 
I've given up playing Doom3 on my LCD because backlight edge bleeding was so awful. Nice waste of $400.
 
Volume said:
I've given up playing Doom3 on my LCD because backlight edge bleeding was so awful. Nice waste of $400.
Click to expand...

Dell claims another victim? The worst backlight offenders appear to be dell and (to a lesser degree) viewsonic. Samsung has very good backlighting.
 
Tutelary said:
Dell claims another victim? The worst backlight offenders appear to be dell and (to a lesser degree) viewsonic. Samsung has very good backlighting.
Click to expand...

This is BS. Most Dells are in fact samsungs and have the same backlights. I tried 2 dells and they both had samsung panels. I checked out Samsungs at bestbuy and they have all the same problems.

Like many issues, some people just don't notice. Some of these people will then claim those who do notice are idiots. Some people claim zero lag/smear/ghosting on common monitors where it is obvious.

I bought a refurb 21" triniton after getting rid of the Dell LCD's. I was stunned by the lucious blacks as my other CRT ws fading out and I hadn't seen fantastic blacks like this for a while.

For gaming it is no contest. CRT is the way to go. Deep, gorgeous detailed blacks, zero lag, excellent multi-resolution support, no viewing angle issues (Dell 2405 I had really sucked for this).

Look for a shop that carries second hand stuff. My local one gets refurb CRT's on a regular basis, that is where I got mine. I was able to check out a few and pick the best one.
 
Snowdog said:
This is BS. Most Dells are in fact samsungs and have the same backlights. I tried 2 dells and they both had samsung panels. I checked out Samsungs at bestbuy and they have all the same problems.

Like many issues, some people just don't notice. Some of these people will then claim those who do notice are idiots. Some people claim zero lag/smear/ghosting on common monitors where it is obvious.

I bought a refurb 21" triniton after getting rid of the Dell LCD's. I was stunned by the lucious blacks as my other CRT ws fading out and I hadn't seen fantastic blacks like this for a while.

For gaming it is no contest. CRT is the way to go. Deep, gorgeous detailed blacks, zero lag, excellent multi-resolution support, no viewing angle issues (Dell 2405 I had really sucked for this).

Look for a shop that carries second hand stuff. My local one gets refurb CRT's on a regular basis, that is where I got mine. I was able to check out a few and pick the best one.
Click to expand...

the PANELS might be, but the construction is NOT. If you check youll find people pressing on their casings to alleviate backlight bleed. I have *never* advocated gaming on lcds. Ghosting makes that a complete joke. The fact that people bitch about gaming on their lcds for the black levels alone makes me laugh though.
 
Menelmarar said:
LOCO LAPTOP said:
um my samsung SyncMaster930B doesnt do it...
Click to expand...
right... That monitor, the one I have(see my sig), is one of the most notorious for it with it's 6bit per color channel TN panel (producing 18bit color total) and usings ome dithering tricks gets upto only 16.2million color vs. 16.7million with other LCDs and near infinite with analog CRTs....

And it's definitely the extreme whitse and blacks that suffer the most...

:LOL:

That Dell 2407 should be alot better that what the rest of us with lower end monitors suffer with.
Click to expand...
heh, funny, I'm sitting behind a Samsung Synchmaster 930b right now and I've had no problems with it.

So...Are you looking to sell yours? I might be intrested in buying if you can beat $200 (I'm dead serious).
 
Unknown-One said:
heh, funny, I'm sitting behind a Samsung Synchmaster 930b right now and I've had no problems with it.

So...Are you looking to sell it? I might be intrested in buying if you can beat $200 (I'm dead serious).
Click to expand...
Negative, dark problems only come up in dark games (Doom3) and movies.

I don't use my computer for movies so a non issue, have a great TV and entertainment setup in the living room for that.

I don't game all that much anymore, some raiding in wow a couple times a week is about all these days.

-The LCD doesn't fatique my eyes during long usage sessions (My biggest motivation for getting an LCD), long hours programming or working on schematics, or even gaming like a long evening raid as mentioned above.
-Geometry is perfect.
-It doesn't take up much room on my desk.
-Not much of an additional heater in the room.
-Text and images in windows are perfectly clear and look adequate for me.
 
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