Archiving/Backup Optical(DVDR) vs. HD

[limitedaccess]

Mostly for archiving rather then any mission critical type backups, I've been using blank DVDs in the past simply due to cost reasons, however the last 100 spindle I bought is running out.

Having looked at the current 1-1.5TB HD prices, it seems they are now much closer to how much I can get blank media for in terms of cost per gb, and I'm considering getting one instead. But I'm wondering if I'm missing anything in my reasoning? The reason I'm considering only 1-1.5Tbs is that they seem to be much more reliable at the moment then 2 TB drives, and I'm not really that space pressed.

Blank Media
- slightly cheaper cost per GB
- cheaper initial cost
- more redundancy (you lose less data upon failure)
- doesn't consume energy/money constantly
- cheaper/safer and less considerations when storing
- more portable/transferable

Hard Drive
- faster to access
- less wasted space from non full DVD (helps with cost)
- less waste from throwing away old media (helps with cost)
- easier organization
- less space to store
- more size flexible (not limited to 4.7gb amounts for media)
- much easier to copy over to new storage
- much easier to check for errors

In terms of longevity, I figure for HDs I could simply over everything to a new one every few years if needed. Where as checking 100+ (or way more) individual DVDs and having to copy those over seems like a nightmare.

Also I'm wondering if there is any technical differences between external USB drives and internal HDs? (Other then the obvious surface differences). And is there special cases for storing HDs outside your PC and what to look for?

 

[ghost6303]

And is there special cases for storing HDs outside your PC and what to look for?

if you need a large number of external hard drives, try looking for a eSATA "port multiplier", sometimes called a port expander. its basically a computer case with a bunch of hard drive bays and a controler card to plug them all into. its different from using an actual computer with a bunch of hard drives because it doesnt have a motherboard or RAM or video card or peripheral ports. it does have to be plugged into an existing PC to run though.

In terms of longevity, I figure for HDs I could simply over everything to a new one every few years if needed.

there have been threads discussing hard drive longevity before, and no one has any hard data on it, but i would say this is not necessary- a hard drive with data on it should have no problem sitting on a shelf for many years.

your argument of "- doesn't consume energy/money constantly" under blank media is only a 'Pro' if you would have the hard drives spinning constantly. if its simply for an offline archive, this point is moot. i would even make the point that disks are not "safer and less considerations when storing". DVD's get easily scratched both on top and bottom and quickly degrade in UV light.

i have a bunch of hard drives that are between 2-10 years old and they have been kicking around in a box with a bunch of other junk for most of their life, not in any protective bags or anything, and they all still fire up. i would say hard drives are the way to go. so much easier.

 

[Menelmarar]

You missed the biggest downside of optical media, and that is rotting and degradation over time.

CD-ROM, retail media is physically pressed. A machine presses the pits and and the lands representing the data bits into a polycarbonate layer of the disc. These can still rot, and there are a few cases here and there of the aluminum reflective layer rotting.

CD-R's that you'd be working with are even more sensitive. The data is recorded in a layer of photosensitive organic dye. The laser from your burner causes chemical changes in the dye to create "pits" and "lands" representing data bits. This dye degrades over time.

I have found that many of my CD-R's, archived from HS/college days are unreadable. All stored in those large binders and in my closet. Dark... temperature/environment controlled. Very high failure rate, 50% or more.

Project files, documentation, tax/financial records, that fit, I use Mozy's free personal service.
Other important files, family photos, music, etc I backup locally using Win7's built-in Backup function, very slick, to an external harddrive.
And remotely (a local backup doesn't take into consideration fire/theft/other natural disaster), encrypt and backup via SFTP "off-site" to an external hard drive attached to my parent's PC. Automated using Cobian, free utility.

 

[Menelmarar]

Mostly for archiving rather then any mission critical type backups, I've been using blank DVDs in the past simply due to cost reasons, however the last 100 spindle I bought is running out.

Having looked at the current 1-1.5TB HD prices, it seems they are now much closer to how much I can get blank media for in terms of cost per gb, and I'm considering getting one instead. But I'm wondering if I'm missing anything in my reasoning? The reason I'm considering only 1-1.5Tbs is that they seem to be much more reliable at the moment then 2 TB drives, and I'm not really that space pressed.

Blank Media
- slightly cheaper cost per GB
- cheaper initial cost
- more redundancy (you lose less data upon failure) -having your data fragmented could be a nightmare in and of itself.
- doesn't consume energy/money constantly -so miniscule I'd consider it irrelevant.
- cheaper/safer and less considerations when storing -I disagree, see my post above regarding disc rot, CD's are quite fragile.
- more portable/transferable -so are exteranl harddrives, simply plug into USB/eSATA/FW port.

Hard Drive
- faster to access
- less wasted space from non full DVD (helps with cost)
- less waste from throwing away old media (helps with cost)
- easier organization
- less space to store
- more size flexible (not limited to 4.7gb amounts for media)
- much easier to copy over to new storage
- much easier to check for errors

In terms of longevity, I figure for HDs I could simply over everything to a new one every few years if needed. Where as checking 100+ (or way more) individual DVDs and having to copy those over seems like a nightmare. -You'd only need to upgrade your harddrive, as your storage needs expand.

Also I'm wondering if there is any technical differences between external USB drives and internal HDs? (Other then the obvious surface differences). And is there special cases for storing HDs outside your PC and what to look for? -No, no difference. However; many external drives have very low end cheap harddrive sin them. I prefer to build my own. I've been very pleased with Vantec's enclosures. Dad and I have several of them. I generally put WD Green drives i them for backup purposes. He has 2 and I have 1 for backup and 1 for simple expanded/mobile storage I lug around.

Comments interspersed.

 

[Tolyngee]

I have burned almost 10,000 DVDs, and still have 1,000+ blank DVD-R to burn, but I'm almost positive I am done burning media. See below:

Blank Media
- slightly cheaper cost per GB
- cheaper initial cost
- doesn't consume energy/money constantly

I just bought a 1.5TB Sammy for $65. 1396GB available, so ~.0465/GB.

Cheapest even marginally quality media runs you about ~.17/disc, so ~.039/GB.

~.039 * 1396GB(HD) = ~$54. So, $10 less for about the equivalent storage of 321 DVDs.

And you still need to factor in the cost of a burner. Since they're so cheap now (but never under $10! Usually $20...), they don't last as long. Days of a burner lasting for 1,000 burns are over. Even quality ones have died around the 1,000 burn mark.

So, let's assume your DVD burner lasts 300 burns... It just cost you more to burn a burner a 300 media than just buying a 1.5TB drive.

Blank Media
- doesn't consume energy/money constantly

Takes about 15 min minimum to burn a disc and verify the data. So, ~80 hours to burn 300... That takes your time every 15 min to switch media... So, even if you never sleep, that's over three days... Even if you just dedicate 8hrs/day to it, that's 10 days...

Realistically, you're looking at a minimum of two weeks to get 1.5TB burned... Takes power to run a machine for two weeks...

You can throw 1.5TBs onto a HD overnight at worst, and it can do it while you sleep...

And then you can unplug it, it's no longer sucking up power...

- cheaper/safer and less considerations when storing
- more portable/transferable

Are you kidding? 3TBs of data's about 640 DVDs, in a container or even just a huge "wallet"-style device (not really safe for your discs IMO), that's H E A V Y.... And bulky...

Two drives? Well, takes up the space of... two drives!

Also, you can buy a quality 20-HD box for storage for $40? That'll hold 20 2TB drives, or about 36TBs of data. $1/TB to store your data safely sure beats any method of storing the 8,500+ DVDs it'll take to store 36TBs of data...

http://www.wic-store.com/20-Pack-35-inch-Disk-ESD-Bag_p_9.html


As far as DVD rot concern and data longevity, ignoring the power consumption issue, you can use FlexRAID or something else to store your HDs in a server with minimal storage loss to parity data, and thus your drives can always be checked for health, and when one dies, replace and rebuild... At least with this method you always know how healthy your data is, and have some options to rebuild while not wasting too much data redundancy/waste to parity...


Well, this is the route I am now going anyway... I now have ~9,000 DVDs to restore to HDs in the future...

O... M... G...

I expect to never bother to finish it all... But at least it'll be nice to toss the DVDs (or just store 'em somewhere else) and reclaim the storage space of two shelving units...

 

[limitedaccess]

Actually your issue is one of my biggest concerns with managing data on DVDs. Having to individually load each into a drive to perform actions on them in hindsight now seems like an absolute nightmare. And my 100+ estimate was very low now that you mention your numbers, since each wallet I have holds 100 discs haha...

When I mentioned storage considerations, I was mainly concerned whether it was an issue to just throw a HD in an anti-static bag and toss them in cardboard box, and how much a special case for them would cost. I did mention they took up less space.

Granted I may have been stretching some points towards blank media, but since I was leaning towards going the HD route, I wanted to to get points for the other side to not miss anything.

Thanks for the comments, I think I will end up going the HD route then, and store old drives in a hd case if it comes to that. Perhaps even an eSATA "port multiplier" in the future, thanks for mention that as I thought the only option would've been to build an actual file server with mobo/cpu. With more and larger HDs I guess I can rip more media/games to HD now as well as an added bonus and not have to deal with the originals.

Any suggestions on optimal humidity/temperature for storing HDs?

 

[Tolyngee]

When I mentioned storage considerations, I was mainly concerned whether it was an issue to just throw a HD in an anti-static bag and toss them in cardboard box, and how much a special case for them would cost. I did mention they took up less space.

http://www.wic-store.com/20-Pack-35-inch-Disk-ESD-Bag_p_9.html

For safe storage of HDs.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0018MCGVU/ref=ord_cart_shr?ie=UTF8&m=A2NK89850H0GO2

To quickly plug one into any computer. (I've been running two of these types of USB converters 24/7 for months if not a year now... They're reliable and fine...)


Beside, you talked about DVD being more portable. With that $45 box, you can safely port HDs with 36TBs of data anywhere. Your HDs would survive in these boxes even if UPS themselves were transporting them!

Storage either direction has never been a factor in my experience with either medium. If you can live with it, they can live with it, both directions. You'll be freezing your ass off or sweating your balls off before either will care, so you'll change the environment yourself before it's a factor.

For me, I still plan to put all my HDs into servers. They might not be on 24/7, but they'll be using a storage environment where they can check their own statuses of their own health at my direction, and fix issues as they arise and when they arise.

FWIW - as I said, I've been burning media for 11 years, and I've yet to find a disc that has gone bad on me. They've been stored in places without AC in the summer (temps can reach 100+F here), and no real heat (basement) in the winter (zero and below). I do admit I don't think it went below freezing in the basement, but you wouldn't live in sub-freezing temps anyway...

Since HDs are less fragile than optical media, they'll be fine, too...

I've never had either just go bad on me in storage (that wasn't already bad when put into storage, anyway...)

 

[limitedaccess]

Is there any real advantage to getting a 5200rpm drive vs. a 7200pm? (thinking in terms of reliability, noise, power, etc.)

 

[rive22]

Is there any real advantage to getting a 5200rpm drive vs. a 7200pm? (thinking in terms of reliability, noise, power, etc.)

The WD green drives are perfectly good as backup drives. The 1.5 & 2TB models are about as speedy as 2 year old smaller 7200rpm drives.

I've burned a few stacks of DVD's in the past when it was needed. But drives just keep getting faster, bigger, and cheaper. All of the slam dunk points stated above aside, when it comes down to wanting to do another backup, all of that data you've since edited and having to reburn it then rendering all the old dvd's garbage just seems like a lot of fuss.

Always at least have two copies of your data though. A good option is grabbing a dual enclosure esata or usb 3 and put two drives in it set at raid 1. The drives will mirror each other and you'll always have 2 copies of everything in case one of the drives fail.

I'll also recommend building your own. As mentioned toss in a good WD drive or the likes. You'll have a 3-5 year warranty, a better drive, & a better enclosure. I think a lot of those prebuilt externals have a 1 year warranty, and many are made of plastic. Can ya believe that junk.

 

[Tolyngee]

Is there any real advantage to getting a 5200rpm drive vs. a 7200pm? (thinking in terms of reliability, noise, power, etc.)

Less power, less heat.

I'd argue that in a server you don't need active cooling for the 5400rpm drives.

If I allow the ambient temp in my place to go to 30C (after that, I sweat...), my 5400rpm drives with no active cooling never go above 35C...

In F, that means the drives never go above 10degrees higher than room temp... (I should admit though that even my 7200rpm drives never seem to go more than 30degrees F over room temp... But I certainly wouldn't pack five 7200rpm drives into a 3x5 bracket and run them 24/7 without a fans...)

For storage, IMO there just isn't any reason to go 7200rpm unless you already own the drives... New drives, 5400rpm, unless there's just too good of a sale to pass up on 7200rpm...

But if you're running both 24/7, a marginally higher 5400rpm will eventually cost less when factoring in less power consumption and not having to run fans to cool it...

No clue on additional reliability, but since they spin slower, you'd think... But for long-term unpowered storage, who knows?

 

[Tolyngee]

The WD green drives are perfectly good as backup drives. The 1.5 & 2TB models are about as speedy as 2 year old smaller 7200rpm drives.

Speed wasn't one of the three factors he was questioning, and the three he was questioning you didn't address...

 

[Tolyngee]

Always at least have two copies of your data though. A good option is grabbing a dual enclosure esata or usb 3 and put two drives in it set at raid 1. The drives will mirror each other and you'll always have 2 copies of everything in case one of the drives fail.

One problem with that is that both copies are currently running. User error or utter catastrophic event will erase/kill data on both simultaneously.

Save data to two drives if you wish, but not in a config where both are on at the same time when you go to re-access the data later. If you FUBAR data on one, you FUBAR data on both...