Apple launched the M2 Pro and the M2 Max

[lopoetve]

I'm a Linux user and I can tell you that I haven't figured it out, and I'd like to be in the position to not have to. Also as a Linux user I probably have it easier to run old/current Windows applications, compared to ARM Mac.

I use Windows, Linux, BSD, and OSX on a daily basis (BSD probably the least - still working through bugs on the latest intel WiFi firmware and USB controllers there, as FreeBSD tends to lag more than a little behind the rest of the world). What are you trying to run that you can't, or think you can't on a Mac? I'm really curious - I do DB work (Oracle and MSSQL, moving into Mongo), video editing, VM work (this just takes a web browser these days), filesystem development, fabric development, code editing (generally powershell, but used to be a lot of C/C++ and python), and security work, and all of my tools are native on Windows and OSX, and most are on Linux too. OSX is just BSD with a pretty wrapper and better app support- most of it is just ~there~ and already ported. Linux is also easy for my tools, with the exception of lacking the entire office suite and OneDrive, so teams and sharepoint integration sucks for collab work. I end up using the web based versions of the office suite (or a published app) on Linux, but the OSX versions work perfectly.

If I really want to run a windows app for some reason, I'll fire up a windows system, or a remote desktop, or a published app, or parallels (VMware workstation on Linux), or any number of other ways of doing it - my end user architecture doesn't limit what I run even slightly. This is also true on Linux, and a heck of a lot easier to coax along than Wine/Proton (outside of games, because Steam). I just don't ever have a ~need~ to on my Apple systems - and rarely on Linux either, although marginally more than OSX (office suite again).

I've also got rosetta and crossover if I really need to on the Apple side, but I've not had a need to run a windows application outside of SQL Management Studio on my laptops in ~years~ - and for SSMS, there's now Azure Data Studio, which is apple native and compatible with their cloud offerings too (also Linux native). I can also run most linux apps on OSX in a docker container, if I really needed to for some reason...

I'm seriously curious (outside of your car apps - which again, tend to be like industrial apps and designed for a specific architecture and platform since they're interfacing externally with something like OBD2 over serial/low level direct communication).

Anything a Mac can do, the PC can do it better and lots more of it. In any professional environment you don't see Mac, with the exception of video editing and DJs.

Except make money, given Intel's latest quarterly report...

There is literally nothing outside of playing games that my Mac laptop can't do - and nothing that I use it for where a PC would do it better. At best it would be parity, and at worse it would be far more limited. If I need to do heavy duty serious video work or the like I'm using a desktop, where power constraints aren't a thing - 4.4ghz all-core on a Zen2/3 Threadripper kicks the crap out of anything you could put in a laptop still to this day, since I don't have power constraints. But that's not what I want in a laptop - and there's nothing Intel or AMD offer in a laptop that would make me even slightly interested right now.

And define professional? We're a cyber security company and 97% Apple in terms of end-user devices. It all depends on what field you're in.

 

[DukenukemX]

What are you trying to run that you can't, or think you can't on a Mac?

Fusion 360, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I know that's native on Mac. Some Windows games. CH341a with flashrom as it doesn't seem to create a perfect copy of a nand chip with md5sum being different every time. The BMW, Toyota, and GM software that I use to repair my cars. iTunes, because I do fix some iPhones and iPads from time to time.

If I really want to run a windows app for some reason, I'll fire up a windows system

I have one drive for Windows and one for Linux, both on my laptops and desktop. I haven't booted into Windows on my desktop for over a year, but I've had to on my laptop to repair things.

This is also true on Linux, and a heck of a lot easier to coax along than Wine/Proton (outside of games, because Steam). I just don't ever have a ~need~ to on my Apple systems - and rarely on Linux either, although marginally more than OSX (office suite again).

I'm not a fan of being limited to what software I want because of the choice of OS and hardware. This is why I stopped buying Rapsberry Pi's for this reason. They're not cheap, when you add things like a case, powers supply, and storage. Lots of cheap used NUC's using AMD or Intel hardware in them. Plus I can run whatever distro I want, and not the ones that barely work on the Pi's.

Except make money, given Intel's latest quarterly report...

You may want to keep up on the news with Apple. Along with Google and Amazon, they did poorly in Q4 last year as well. Not as bad as Intels but 5% down is down.
https://techcrunch.com/2023/02/02/a...PVv7dGPSMI_WyXXp-rYhA2KKXKi7SXm6DW4BW6BxWDrFw

This might be the reason why Apple cut costs with the M2 Pro 512GB SSD. Which is odd since they also lowered the price by $100. Once Intel's new 13980Hx reviews come in and are compared to the M2 Pro and Max, you won't see those earnings getting better. The real trouble is when AMD releases their new laptop chips, as they have a 4nm manufacturing process and not the 10nm... Intel's version of 7nm with the 13980Hx. I can't imagine the 13980Hx being good on battery. It took Apple nearly 2 years to release the M2 Pro and Max? Time for some Apple puts.

 

[idiomatic]

WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO EDIT RED RAW ON AN ENTRY LEVEL MAC?!?!?

Its like, if I got my junk stuck in a bear trap would a spoon be sufficient to get it out or do I really need a fork?

 

[lopoetve]

Fusion 360, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I know that's native on Mac.

Fair - everyone I know is running AutoCAD in that space (or more specific tools for the actual 3d modeling side), and tends to run it in GRID based VDI or on heavy workstations rather than a laptop. Heavily industrial side there though - and most of my customers have been doing it for architecture/design vs what I suspect is more engine/etc design on your side.

Some Windows games.

Not counting games, remember?

CH341a with flashrom as it doesn't seem to create a perfect copy of a nand chip with md5sum being different every time. The BMW, Toyota, and GM software that I use to repair my cars.

All this drops into the industrial side - honestly I half expect apps in this category to require actual physical serial ports (not USB->Serial); any time you're talking to a raw UART device, things get funky as hell. For that matter, I half expect Windows XP or 98 requirements - I keep one system running at a friends' family for that reason (fire suppression systems), where it's not worth 100k+ just to upgrade the system if we can keep the old setup running still. Plus they're designed for whatever BMW/Toyota/GM/etc sets up at their own shops (which is why I just pay those guys - I don't have time to mess with it myself anymore) rather than your generic home user.

I have one drive for Windows and one for Linux, both on my laptops and desktop. I haven't booted into Windows on my desktop for over a year, but I've had to on my laptop to repair things.

I'm not a fan of being limited to what software I want because of the choice of OS and hardware. This is why I stopped buying Rapsberry Pi's for this reason. They're not cheap, when you add things like a case, powers supply, and storage. Lots of cheap used NUC's using AMD or Intel hardware in them. Plus I can run whatever distro I want, and not the ones that barely work on the Pi's.

If I took this approach, I'd have 14 x299/sTRX4 systems instead of 4 (plus a mix of 10 other boxes). Assuming that you build to swap any one system for another, you end up horribly inefficient. Pick the right tool for the job. For me, Arm vs x86 vs Power is a platform discussion in the same way that ESXi vs Windows vs Linux is - match the right hardware with the right software to accomplish the task in front of you, rather than trying to shoehorn something into the wrong place.

It's all about picking the right tool for the job - I have 2 Pi's in use, and neither of those use cases could be sanely replaced by x86 (granted, one of them is ARM testing, so duh). In fact, I'd take the Pi over the 13980HX laptops - the Pi runs for 30 hours on the UPS battery. The laptop probably wouldn't make it 10 with the two batteries combined.

To flip that around the other way - The Asus laptop linked above (even the 16" version of it) could do very little that I can do on my current mobile device. It does not have the power budget or longevity to accomplish my mobile tasks, much like a Raspberry Pi wouldn't do you much good working on your GM cars, nor does it have the required horsepower to replace one of the main workstations (it's short about 4 M2 slots, 8 cores, and at least 64G of RAM, and my next generation of workstations will start at 256G). It's trying to be too many things at once - either be a mobile device or be a workstation - I have no task for one that is trying to be both.

That doesn't mean it's a BAD machine - it's just not a good machine for me, much like a Macbook pro is apparently not a good machine for you. I've had jobs in the past where it would have been very useful, and hobbies in the past where it would have been useful - but that's why there are options out there. Right now, it's a paper weight. My last x86 laptop I personally bought (Alienware 13 in 2016) spent it's last year sitting in a closet while I ran a MBP - it wasn't useful anymore, even with a 1060 and I7 7th gen.

You may want to keep up on the news with Apple. Along with Google and Amazon, they did poorly in Q4 last year as well. Not as bad as Intels but 5% down is down.
https://techcrunch.com/2023/02/02/a...PVv7dGPSMI_WyXXp-rYhA2KKXKi7SXm6DW4BW6BxWDrFw

Still made a significant profit - whereas intel actually had significant paper and real world losses last quarter (and half). That's an intel issue though, and it was mostly a joke. I half believe intel is going to be forced to spin off the fab business soon, given the way the cash flow is working, unless they get creative.

This might be the reason why Apple cut costs with the M2 Pro 512GB SSD. Which is odd since they also lowered the price by $100. Once Intel's new 13980Hx reviews come in and are compared to the M2 Pro and Max, you won't see those earnings getting better.

I suspect that will have no impact at all on Apple sales; they're in different markets and used for different use cases - very few people are cross-shopping those two.

If you gave me a 13980HX box I'd sell it and either build another Threadripper workstation, or buy a MacBook Pro (or stash the cash to see what comes out with Sapphire Rapids and W790). I can't make any use of a 13980 laptop - it's literally a paper weight for my tasks (seriously - either not enough CPU+RAM, or not enough battery - one way or another it doesn't work for me). Might buy another NUC Extreme though - I can think of a place to put another shoebox of doom, and that'd let me tie up one with the BSD stuff while I used the other for funky things (trying to fix the Aqtion driver to work in ESXi). Hmmm...

The real trouble is when AMD releases their new laptop chips, as they have a 4nm manufacturing process and not the 10nm... Intel's version of 7nm with the 13980Hx. I can't imagine the 13980Hx being good on battery. It took Apple nearly 2 years to release the M2 Pro and Max? Time for some Apple puts.

AMD's hardware will be interesting. The issue has always been power or performance - you had to pick. x86 has chips with the power budget I want for mobile - but they're slow as shit and can't do much other than basic office tasks, and even those tended to be mediocre. They also have chips that can do heavier crunching when I need them to - but blow out the power budget and aren't really portable. They've had a very hard time doing both - this is part of why I hated my I9 Macbook Pro. Sure it was fast, but it ran 3 hours on battery on a ~good~ day. I was much happier the moment they gave me an M1 based box.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

I'm a Linux user and I can tell you that I haven't figured it out, and I'd like to be in the position to not have to. Also as a Linux user I probably have it easier to run old/current Windows applications, compared to ARM Mac.

So you don't use any software period? Figure it out means: find and use software for your preferred software stack.

I'd have to spend like 100s if not 1000s of hours in "figuring it out" if I moved to Linux. Or more accurately, it would be impossible, or I would have to make massive concessions in order to run it. Which is again why I've stated over and over again but you have zero capability of understanding apparently: you buy the hardware that works with your software. And Linux and PC's definitely aren't it for me.

Oh hey, you did. And he tested it on a external drive.... Then tested the CPU... Ah finally, real tests.

Lightroom M1 Pro = 8s
Lightroom M2 Pro - 18s

Lightroom Paste M1 Pro = 59s
Lightroom Paste M2 Pro = 1m 5s

He then tested exporting which is faster on the M2 Pro, but isn't limited at all the SSD because he's exporting. He then begins to test more CPU bound stuff and not the SSD itself, including gaming. If you're testing the SSD for real world stuff you test how quickly an application launches, not CPU and GPU stuff.

Uh-huh. So if you want the faster drive speed, spend $200 more dollars and buy the 1TB drive. This is why your 3 page argument is dumb and continues to be dumb.
Sure continue complaing some more about a machine you'll never buy about a benchmarks that make no difference to anyone in the real world.

But yea, there is some outrage of Apple putting slower SSDs in their 512GB M2 models.

Starts at 4:00 mark.

I don't need to watch that to know it. It's literally the same thing you're doing. Any time there is the smallest controversy on the Apple side people make tons of content because it gets clicks. You think these people actually care? Of course they do, they want your clicks and your eyes because it makes them money. YouTube is fueled by controversy and offense in case you haven't figured it out.

You're basically parroting all of this stuff. Anything that fits your narrative of talking points is what fuels your fire. It's literally no different than politics.

Meanwhile people who have better things to do (like you know, actually work with these machines) doesn't care.

Anything a Mac can do, the PC can do it better and lots more of it.

Really? Show me the 10+ hour battery life laptop that doesn't throttle when not receiving wall power that is "equal" in performance to an M2 Pro Mac. I'll wait. Even if you want to ignore MaxTech, what he showed is the story for all PC laptops. If you don't need your PC laptop to be a laptop it performs great, but the second you do want it to be a laptop, then you lose all of your performance and have terrible battery life.

In any professional environment you don't see Mac, with the exception of video editing and DJs.

Then you're blind and/or ignorant. You have multiple people in this thread talking talking to you about it. This is literally the adult version of sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "la la la".
There are tons of webdevs, sysadmins, coders, that prefer Mac hardware. There's also all of the arts, not just video editing. Photography, design, digital painters, and is definitely the preference of anyone working in the audio industry. Both for recording small projects as individual artists, all the way to massive studios (literally every record company) and Hollywood.
It's still vastly preferred by most of the education world and has made a lot of inroads for basically any and all office workers. In fact in regards to office workers, there is probably a preference to using Mac hardware, but the users won't receive it mostly owing to company policy.
Lakados I believe is someone that can give first person knowledge about it. (can't remember if it was him or someone else, but pretty sure it's him).

But even in telling you all of this, you will do your best to immediately ignore it, because you prefer your narrative even if it's a lie. Even though I know 100% for a fact that it's been done multiple times. Heck lopoetve right now is telling you that he's a professional user, and you're ignoring him to because it doesn't fit your narrative.

 

[Lakados]

UnknownSouljer Yeah we have lots of Mac’s from admin down to students. Doing anything office work, large reports, art, animation, audio/video editing, we have kids recording and editing directly on iPad Pro be it live plays or stop motion videos. And I recently ordered up some of the new iPad Minis with some of the new pens because with the USB C connection they work as excellent Wacom tablet replacements in addition to all the stuff they can do on their own.

 

[Mchart]

UnknownSouljer Yeah we have lots of Mac’s from admin down to students. Doing anything office work, large reports, art, animation, audio/video editing, we have kids recording and editing directly on iPad Pro be it live plays or stop motion videos. And I recently ordered up some of the new iPad Minis with some of the new pens because with the USB C connection they work as excellent Wacom tablet replacements in addition to all the stuff they can do on their own.

Nope. Sorry, not valid. Those Macs can’t run Windows 95 16-bit software used to communicate via 232 to the computer in a Mclaren F1.

 

[Lakados]

Nope. Sorry, not valid. Those Macs can’t run Windows 95 16-bit software used to communicate via 232 to the computer in a Mclaren F1.

I haven’t successfully done Windows 95, but would you settle for 98SE and DosBox?

Installing 98SE in UTM is easy enough and DosBox has an M1 native you can install.

You should be able to setup USB pass through then just use a USB to Serial connector. I have a good one I got from Startech a while back that’s given me no problems at all.

Between those two it should keep you covered.

 

[lopoetve]

I haven’t successfully done Windows 95, but would you settle for 98SE and DosBox?

Installing 98SE in UTM is easy enough and DosBox has an M1 native you can install.

You should be able to setup USB pass through then just use a USB to Serial connector. I have a good one I got from Startech a while back that’s given me no problems at all.

Between those two it should keep you covered.

Hilariously enough I meant it when I'd accept that as a "doesn't work on Mac" bit - true RS-232 for the things that need it can be picky as @#@% at times. But I've got a 12 year old Thinkpad for that - with an actual serial port on it - that I keep around for oddball shit. I don't try to get that working on a modern system of any stripe.

 

[Lakados]

Hilariously enough I meant it when I'd accept that as a "doesn't work on Mac" bit - true RS-232 for the things that need it can be picky as @#@% at times. But I've got a 12 year old Thinkpad for that - with an actual serial port on it - that I keep around for oddball shit. I don't try to get that working on a modern system of any stripe.

Well you can install Putty on an M1, it takes a little effort as you need to also install XCode and enable some developer tools but Startech has a USBC RS232 that works really well on both OSX and Windows 10/11.

https://www.startech.com/en-us/cards-adapters/icusb232c

My new switches all use a USBC port and have their RS232 stuff built in so I only need a generic usb cord to connect to them.

 

[lopoetve]

Yup. I’ve got one old switch that is picky, but generally serial gets it (the OSX app - worth every cent). But i have run into things where it just doesn’t like a USB one adapter - on windows OR linux. That’s what the thinkpad is for. Old school end to end.

 

[Lakados]

Yup. I’ve got one old switch that is picky, but generally serial gets it (the OSX app - worth every cent). But i have run into things where it just doesn’t like a USB one adapter - on windows OR linux. That’s what the thinkpad is for. Old school end to end.

Yeah lots of older or cheaper adapters out there with chips that don’t follow the full 232 spec so Win 8 and I want to say Catalina onward broke.

 

[Lakados]

All this drops into the industrial side - honestly I half expect apps in this category to require actual physical serial ports (not USB->Serial); any time you're talking to a raw UART device, things get funky as hell. For that matter, I half expect Windows XP or 98 requirements - I keep one system running at a friends' family for that reason (fire suppression systems), where it's not worth 100k+ just to upgrade the system if we can keep the old setup running still. Plus they're designed for whatever BMW/Toyota/GM/etc sets up at their own shops (which is why I just pay those guys - I don't have time to mess with it myself anymore) rather than your generic home user.

It runs a scale I need for my busses, need them for our CVSE inspections. Last I checked it’s gonna cost a cool half million to upgrade it. Still running on the original P2 it shipped on, good old Slot 1.

 

[lopoetve]

View attachment 546746View attachment 546747

It runs a scale I need for my busses, need them for our CVSE inspections. Last I checked it’s gonna cost a cool half million to upgrade it. Still running on the original P2 it shipped on, good old Slot 1.

Yup. Nice!!!!

 

[paradoxical]

Fusion 360, which sometimes works and sometimes doesn't. I know that's native on Mac.

Regardless of what you run it on, Fusion is easily most most garbage program we pay for from a coding standpoint. Frankly, it's a total pile of dogshit.

That being said, it does work through Rosetta just "fine," fine being defined as equally as piss poor as it does on native windows x86. We have a mix of engineers using Dell XPS 17 and Macbook Pro 14s and Fusion runs about the same on both - awfully. I have run in-place rendering tests and the Macbook is dead-nuts even with the loaded XPS laptops despite running through Rosetta. And the fans barely run. On battery power, the Macs are significantly faster.

The argument about old specialized automotive software is funny; none of it works on Windows 11 (or 10 half of the time either). I used to make money coding BMWs with ISTA and I had to maintain dedicated Windows XP and Windows 7 32 bit laptops for them. This is not an issue of Mac vs PC, but rather antiquated industrial complex vs. modern technology.

As for doing work on my Mac, despite what I keep reading in this thread it's working out just fine for me. As a business owner and creative professional, my workstation is just fucking awesome for what I need it to do. Whether it's data science, CAD, video editing, graphics design, or music production (orchestral templates with 100+ VIs all running locally) my loaded Macbook Pro 14 just shreds what I need it to do - while using a single cable to run a Samsung G9 Neo and Alienware AW3423DW at full res and refresh rate, with color management that actually works - without the fans turning on.

That last part is actually a really big deal. I don't think there is a PC laptop in the world that can do what my Mac can for basic office work - run excel at full resolution on a G9 Neo and Alienware AW3423DW without the fan spinning up. Just not gonna happen. PC laptops immediately spin up the fans when you connect even one high-res external display, let alone two.

And when I'm in-between working, I can run Supreme Commander or Titanfall 2 just fine via Parallels. If I really feel like serious gaming I can switch to my 3990x/RTX 3090 rig, but I vastly prefer doing actual work on MacOS.

 

[Mackintire]

View attachment 546746View attachment 546747

It runs a scale I need for my busses, need them for our CVSE inspections. Last I checked it’s gonna cost a cool half million to upgrade it. Still running on the original P2 it shipped on, good old Slot 1.

Once upon a time, I needed to do some serious serial port connectivity. I needed it to be bulletproof, compatible with every weird standard I had to deal with and ensure it would never kill the embedded PC104 system we were driving it with.

I found these and never looked back: https://www.moxa.com/en/products/in.../serial-device-servers/general-device-servers

Works for Linux. Windows and we were able with their dev team to develop a compatible driver for VXworks.

Update:

Looks like they make USB to Serial adapters now too: https://www.moxa.com/en/products/in...converters/uport-1200-1400-1600-series#models

 

[idiomatic]

I just scared myself. My home workstation is as below. Its across three monitors (one portrait) and a full wall projector. I wonder if I get a lil dock and plug this nifty lil air m2 laptop in, if I would notice the difference. Outside of Fortnite, VR, AI, editing and maybe compiling?

What if I don't? What if its better? if its even close it means I look at a full fat m2 or m3 ultra to close the gap on everything else?

 

[Mackintire]

I just scared myself. My home workstation is as below. Its across three monitors (one portrait) and a full wall projector. I wonder if I get a lil dock and plug this nifty lil air m2 laptop in, if I would notice the difference. Outside of Fortnite, VR, AI, editing and maybe compiling?

What if I don't? What if its better? if its even close it means I look at a full fat m2 or m3 ultra to close the gap on everything else?

I have a 5900X that I modified the power parameters, OC and undervolted to run at 75 watts with a 165 watts PBS limit. Tuning it to be 100% stable was a nightmare, but I'm there now. I ended up with 96% of the oob performance with a fairly significant drop in power usage. It turbos single threaded like it should, turbo's multi-thread clocks similar to 5900, and drinks power like a miserly 5800. Idle power usage s unbelievably low. Compared to the HP Z620 I replaced it saves me $15 on my power bill a month. You really can over analyze these things pretty easily.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

I just scared myself. My home workstation is as below. Its across three monitors (one portrait) and a full wall projector. I wonder if I get a lil dock and plug this nifty lil air m2 laptop in, if I would notice the difference. Outside of Fortnite, VR, AI, editing and maybe compiling?

What if I don't? What if its better? if its even close it means I look at a full fat m2 or m3 ultra to close the gap on everything else?

Right now you have a single machine that does everything you need. I don't advocate buying something else just to buy it. If it doesn't meet your needs then stick to what you have.

Some of those tasks Mac's are good at, some are not.

 

[D-EJ915]

Once upon a time, I needed to do some serious serial port connectivity. I needed it to be bulletproof, compatible with every weird standard I had to deal with and ensure it would never kill the embedded PC104 system we were driving it with.

I found these and never looked back: https://www.moxa.com/en/products/in.../serial-device-servers/general-device-servers

Works for Linux. Windows and we were able with their dev team to develop a compatible driver for VXworks.

Update:

Looks like they make USB to Serial adapters now too: https://www.moxa.com/en/products/in...converters/uport-1200-1400-1600-series#models

HP and Dell still sell some models which have optional serial, I've been tempted to get one maybe I can get my boss to buy one for work.

 

[paradoxical]

I just scared myself. My home workstation is as below. Its across three monitors (one portrait) and a full wall projector. I wonder if I get a lil dock and plug this nifty lil air m2 laptop in, if I would notice the difference. Outside of Fortnite, VR, AI, editing and maybe compiling?

What if I don't? What if its better? if its even close it means I look at a full fat m2 or m3 ultra to close the gap on everything else?

Won't work with a standard low-spec Air (and I would never go from a machine with 64gb to one with 16gb). The entry level chips have multiple display limitations, which I think is pretty frustrating. I am not sure if that is a chipset limitation or Apple forcing people to upgrade if they want more professional workflows (annoying either way).

But a Macbook Pro with the M1 or M2 Max would handle it no problem. It would probably be faster for some editing and compiling too, depending on what exactly you are doing.

 

[Mchart]

TLDR, the MSI as expected much faster if used plugged in, but gets beat out by the MacBook Pro by a substantial margin when used on battery, and the battery life is also basically a joke.

 

[LukeTbk]

That seem to be a bit higher than having a Desktop 12900K+3090 in a Laptop, in a console like power envelope, that quite something, Intel meteor lake or AMD right now latest affair could make this interesting.

 

[lopoetve]

TLDR, the MSI as expected much faster if used plugged in, but gets beat out by the MacBook Pro by a substantial margin when used on battery, and the battery life is also basically a joke.

I mean hell, someone actually ~made~ a threadripper laptop - you can ALWAYS make something more powerful, if you're willing to throw away your power budget - it's doing so in a way that is USABLE.

 

[Mchart]

I mean hell, someone actually ~made~ a threadripper laptop - you can ALWAYS make something more powerful, if you're willing to throw away your power budget - it's doing so in a way that is USABLE.

I agree - It's why I bought the MacBook. I don't understand the point of buying a laptop that you can't actually use as a laptop. There are very limited scenarios where I think it makes sense to buy these gaming laptops. It's mostly those people who don't have internet in their dorm room/etc and want something powerful that they can slap down in an Internet cafe.

 

[Silentbob343]

The $1250 Canadian Dell XPS 13:
https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/cty/xps-13-laptop/spd/xps-13-9315-laptop

Come with 8 gig of expensive LPRDD5 ram, 8 gig is still quite common even in the expensive Laptop space.

That simply tells me dell is in the wrong too, it doesn't exonerate apple from making a poor choice.

 

[LukeTbk]

I agree - It's why I bought the MacBook. I don't understand the point of buying a laptop that you can't actually use as a laptop. There are very limited scenarios where I think it makes sense to buy these gaming laptops. It's mostly those people who don't have internet in their dorm room/etc and want something powerful that they can slap down in an Internet cafe.

The reverse could be common, how many people do an Adobe render with their laptop unplugged ?

A lot of people have transportable computer, they work on their laptop either at their home, at the garage during a car fix, hotel or at work (i.e. 100% plugged all the time inside a building with electric outlet, not in the wood or public transport without it) and the rare occasion they used unplugged it will not be for making a video render or task like that, but checking emails.

 

[lopoetve]

I agree - It's why I bought the MacBook. I don't understand the point of buying a laptop that you can't actually use as a laptop. There are very limited scenarios where I think it makes sense to buy these gaming laptops. It's mostly those people who don't have internet in their dorm room/etc and want something powerful that they can slap down in an Internet cafe.

Yup. Or you need something to move from office to office or location to location and you know you’ll always have power. I’ve had that job in the past. Also had a lot of time on my hands so a gaming machine was handy - when you’re burning whole days somewhere that isn’t a tourist locale…

Or times when I’ve needed as much raw horsepower in a box that moved - load it up with RAM and run VMs/etc. but I grew past those jobs. Now I need it powerful and mobile. And it needs to run on battery.

 

[lopoetve]

The reverse could be common, how many people do an Adobe render with their laptop unplugged ?

A lot of people have transportable computer, they work on their laptop either at their home, at the garage during a car fix, hotel or at work (i.e. 100% plugged all the time inside a building with electric outlet, not in the wood or public transport without it) and the rare occasion they used unplugged it will not be for making a video render or task like that, but checking emails.

That’s why you pick the tool for the job. I do video work (some) on the go, and generally unplugged. Most of the rest of my work is coding/editing/etc on the go. If I’m doing heavy hitting work I’m likely home on a workstation.

It comes down to the MSI being horrible at my tasks on the road, merely ok when at home and plugged in, and a low power x86 box is bad at both. So I got a MacBook Pro.

Trick is, even not doing heavy lifting, the MSI is pretty short on battery life … which still sucks.

 

[paradoxical]

That's really the thing here...there is no PC laptop in the world that can fulfill both roles of excellent mobile computer and desktop powerhouse workstation as well as a loaded Macbook Pro 14 can.

 

[Mackintire]

That's really the thing here...there is no PC laptop in the world that can fulfill both roles of excellent mobile computer and desktop powerhouse workstation as well as a loaded Macbook Pro 14 can.

You can't buy such a thing out of the box, but I'd bet an AMD 6800 series 8 core processor held to a 25 watt profile while on battery and then switching to a 45 watt profile while plugged in, would give that a good run for its money.

 

[Mchart]

You can't buy such a thing out of the box, but I'd bet an AMD 6800 series 8 core processor held to a 25 watt profile while on battery and then switching to a 45 watt profile while plugged in, would give that a good run for its money.

The entire m2 max is using 45w full tilt. No other cpu/GPU combo is going to come near the m2 max’s level of performance/watt.

 

[Lakados]

You can't buy such a thing out of the box, but I'd bet an AMD 6800 series 8 core processor held to a 25 watt profile while on battery and then switching to a 45 watt profile while plugged in, would give that a good run for its money.

Perhaps but the Mx series has so many job-specific accelerators that it's a tough hill to climb for x86 and Microsoft because while those jobs may be super small and very specific in nature the Apple silicon does it faster for basically free while the x86 and Microsoft have to put work into it. Those accelerators are one of the reasons I look forward to seeing what this "AI" accelerator is that AMD has placed on their new 7040 series can do, if they and Microsoft can keep the promises they made in that awkward-as-hell interaction at CES then it is a massive step for them both.

 

[DukenukemX]

TLDR, the MSI as expected much faster if used plugged in, but gets beat out by the MacBook Pro by a substantial margin when used on battery, and the battery life is also basically a joke.

Gotta say not the worst video from an Apple only YouTuber. Though looking at his channel he put Apple silicon in this 13 year old Porsche. Pretty obvious that MSI laptop is not meant to be unplugged. That and the light show that is the front and the keyboard. Like, what the hell MSI?

That seem to be a bit higher than having a Desktop 12900K+3090 in a Laptop, in a console like power envelope, that quite something, Intel meteor lake or AMD right now latest affair could make this interesting.

Intel and AMD are handling their laptop chips differently, though I think Intel is also going the same route as Apple with Meteor Lake. The 13900Hk is just power, and lots of it. This has been Intels strategy when it comes to dealing with the competition and the 13900Hk exemplifies this. Meteor Lake is a direct attack on Apple at all fronts, and this includes power efficiency. Intel is just copying what Apple did, and will attempt to do a better job at it. AMD is just doing what they've been doing, and that seems to be more efficient cores in general, with more efficient GPU cores in general. It's also likely AMD's 7040 series is a direct attack on Apple as well as AMD does compare them to the Apple M1 Pro.

 

[DukenukemX]

I agree - It's why I bought the MacBook. I don't understand the point of buying a laptop that you can't actually use as a laptop. There are very limited scenarios where I think it makes sense to buy these gaming laptops. It's mostly those people who don't have internet in their dorm room/etc and want something powerful that they can slap down in an Internet cafe.

It's a desktop replacement. It's meant for people who need a powerful PC that can be picked up and moved around. Also, realistically you won't get much better battery life on the Macbooks when doing tasks like gaming. Maybe better performance since the Macbooks don't get slower. If you're doing videos in H.264 or H.265 then yes the Macbook is very good. Do videos in AV1 and you won't like the results. Also, realistically I wouldn't want to game or do serious work on a trackpad. That sucker is going to end up on a table with a mouse plugged in, usually not to far from a power outlet. The benefit of the Macbook based silicon is watching videos and browsing the web for a very long time. You know, like a Chromebook.

 

[Mchart]

It's a desktop replacement. It's meant for people who need a powerful PC that can be picked up and moved around. Also, realistically you won't get much better battery life on the Macbooks when doing tasks like gaming. Maybe better performance since the Macbooks don't get slower. If you're doing videos in H.264 or H.265 then yes the Macbook is very good. Do videos in AV1 and you won't like the results. Also, realistically I wouldn't want to game or do serious work on a trackpad. That sucker is going to end up on a table with a mouse plugged in, usually not to far from a power outlet. The benefit of the Macbook based silicon is watching videos and browsing the web for a very long time. You know, like a Chromebook.

You're just making stuff up now to rationalize your position. No, the ARM MacBooks get useable battery life even running full tilt. Any number of articles/videos you've posted in here demonstrate that.

 

[lopoetve]

It's a desktop replacement. It's meant for people who need a powerful PC that can be picked up and moved around. Also, realistically you won't get much better battery life on the Macbooks when doing tasks like gaming.

That came up in the tests - there was no significant change in battery life (the SoC can't really pull much more power than it generally does - 35w is pretty light overall). Even running all their benchmarks they only burned through 10% of the battery (the MSI burned through 60% in the same set of tests). I've had needs for systems like the MSI in the past - spent years hauling one (or even two) around for demos and personal stuff. They're good boxes - but a different use case.

Maybe better performance since the Macbooks don't get slower. If you're doing videos in H.264 or H.265 then yes the Macbook is very good. Do videos in AV1 and you won't like the results. Also, realistically I wouldn't want to game or do serious work on a trackpad. That sucker is going to end up on a table with a mouse plugged in, usually not to far from a power outlet. The benefit of the Macbook based silicon is watching videos and browsing the web for a very long time. You know, like a Chromebook.

Can chromebooks store things locally, or is it all online-only? I do remember that being something brought up early on - only app store apps (unless you side load - haven't really investigated that as my use case for them tends to be as citrix or horizon clients), and not really able to do work offline.

The MBP is a box that can do just about anything (other than gaming), and do it well (maybe not the best, but certainly well), and do it for a very long time on battery with no change from being plugged in.

 

[UnknownSouljer]

 

[DukenukemX]

That came up in the tests - there was no significant change in battery life (the SoC can't really pull much more power than it generally does - 35w is pretty light overall). Even running all their benchmarks they only burned through 10% of the battery (the MSI burned through 60% in the same set of tests). I've had needs for systems like the MSI in the past - spent years hauling one (or even two) around for demos and personal stuff. They're good boxes - but a different use case.

Like I've said before, the Apple only reviewers aren't very good. The Premier test he did was with what codec? It's going to be power efficient when using the code the Macbook is capable of using, but the crutch of specialized hardware is they don't always stay in style. AV1 is the codec of choice for those who upload videos online and I really doubt he did those tests in AV1. There is still a use case for H.264 and H.265, but YouTube and Netflix have already moved over to AV1. Not sure if that MSI laptop has a AV1 hardware encoder but willing to bet either way that AV1 is much faster on it.

Can chromebooks store things locally, or is it all online-only? I do remember that being something brought up early on - only app store apps (unless you side load - haven't really investigated that as my use case for them tends to be as citrix or horizon clients), and not really able to do work offline.

You didn't see that as a joke? I'm comparing a very expensive Macbook to a cheap Chromebook.

The MBP is a box that can do just about anything (other than gaming), and do it well (maybe not the best, but certainly well), and do it for a very long time on battery with no change from being plugged in.

That maybe but AMD and Intel has finally started to get their shit together. I have to applaud Apple for releasing their silicon at the right time, which was probably the lowest points for both AMD and Intel. Intel for sitting around and thinking they're the best and have to do barely anything to improve their products, and AMD who for some reason didn't use their latest tech on their mobile parts for nearly 3 years. That and they still used Vega graphics up until last year... mostly. They still pull this crap today with their mobile 7000 series as I still see them selling Zen2+ and Zen3 cores, along with RDNA2 and Vega. AMD has to stop gate keeping their tech like this. Apple though isn't doing much better. For the most part the M2 series is just a beefed up M1. I was expecting Apple to go 3nm with the M2's, and switch over to the ARMv9 architecture, but that didn't happen.

I think Apple is cost cutting because the development of the Apple silicon wasn't cheap. They clearly could have done more. They did cost cut with the M2 256GB and M2 Pro 512GB SSD's for a reason. While Apple is a big player in the laptop market, they aren't that big. Not enough to justify the R&D they put into making their silicon. Also their CPU tech is mainly from ARM, which is in financial limbo in terms of bankruptcy and who's who in terms of buying them. Apple's GPU tech is Imaginations PowerVR tech reimagined. Which is now owned by the Chinese government. It's only going to get more expensive for Apple to compete against AMD and Intel. I said 3 years ago that AMD and Intel will catch up to Apple in efficiency, and this year they will. Maybe if Apple went 3nm and ARMv9 they'd still have the edge, but as far as I know the M2's are 5nm using ARMv8.

 

[paradoxical]

Not enough to justify the R&D they put into making their silicon. Also their CPU tech is mainly from ARM, which is in financial limbo in terms of bankruptcy and who's who in terms of buying them. Apple's GPU tech is Imaginations PowerVR tech reimagined. Which is now owned by the Chinese government. It's only going to get more expensive for Apple to compete against AMD and Intel. I said 3 years ago that AMD and Intel will catch up to Apple in efficiency, and this year they will. Maybe if Apple went 3nm and ARMv9 they'd still have the edge, but as far as I know the M2's are 5nm using ARMv8.

You are fundamentally misunderstanding Apple and their goals. On purpose, most likely.