Apple: 'Founders Would Be Appalled'

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Holy cow, can we just get this case in a court room already? The grandstanding on both sides is getting pretty outrageous.

"According to the government, short of kidnapping or breaking an express law, the courts can order private parties to do virtually anything the Justice Department and FBI can dream up,'' according to court documents filed by the company. "The Founders would be appalled.''
 
jojo69 said:
how about Apple just halts operations in the US and bases out of a jurisdiction with a clue?
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Yeah, but where? I can't think of too many countries that would allow Apple to fight a court order, especially when it is a case involving terrorist / mass shootings.
 
Steve said:
Yeah, but where? I can't think of too many countries that would allow Apple to fight a court order, especially when it is a case involving terrorist / mass shootings.
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How about Russia? Snowden can be an expert witness!
 
As we have said in our filings, the Constitution and the three branches of the federal government should be entrusted to strike the balance between each citizen's right to privacy and all citizens' right to safety and justice.
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Trust us, we are the Government....yeah, that train has left the station ...and its not coming back....
 
There is something more than a little ironic about the ultra liberal Apple making comments about "What would the founders do?"

I'm not saying I disagree, but it took THIS to get them to wake up just a tiny bit?
 
Careful how you cast that rock, Tim; some of your practices and public statements over the last few years would not exactly be above examination from the same Founding Fathers.
 
Good for Apple to staying firm in their stance. So many of us are now operating under the "as long as it doesn't affect me, I don't care or do whatever is necessary". How bad can it get when it is just hacking one phone belonging to a terrorist? It is for the good of the country. Wait a minute, now you want to hack mine too? Oh hell no. Apple better do something quick to get rid of the backdoor.
 
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While I am mildly interested on what is on this phone I would love to hear what the FBI honestly thinks they are going to find on it. They already have the info from the cell company, and its not like apple hasnt given them what they did have which was quite a bit. This almost seems like they didnt get everything they wanted so are trying to pull their "listen pal, we are the government, do you really want to go down this road?" Card. Good for apple for standing up and saying "You really have no idea what your asking for do you. Go ahead, lets go down this road together, you first."
 
I really do agree with the John Oliver segment that this is a slippery slope. Even if the USA government is completely honest with their intentions, which I disbelieve, it's only a matter of time before the backdoor is leaked. It's not a matter of if, but when. I get disgusted when completely obvious issues that will cause major problems are handled by complete idiots, and this is one of those situations.
 
They should just make some shit up. You know, pull the old child porn trick.

A terrorist child molester.

1458100530002.jpg
 
Nytegard said:
I really do agree with the John Oliver segment that this is a slippery slope. Even if the USA government is completely honest with their intentions, which I disbelieve, it's only a matter of time before the backdoor is leaked. It's not a matter of if, but when. I get disgusted when completely obvious issues that will cause major problems are handled by complete idiots, and this is one of those situations.
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It is my understanding that you can already circumvent the iPhone's security features, now whether that rumor is true or not, i honestly do not know, but that is under the umbrella of the NSA and MI6 that that rumor has circulated.

The crack/backdoor/brute force attack that comes out of this is immaterial, this is a test case to see how far the DOJ can stretch their powers. After reading about the Silk Road fiasco, the theft by govt. agents of bitcoins, the unallowable defense based on evidence brought forth by the DOJ to begin with, there has to be some sort of limit that needs to be drawn in the sand. Maybe this case will be the one, who knows, but i certainly hope so.
 
What the founding fathers would do would be to exercise their 2nd amendment rights and march on the white house armed to the teeth and take control, as that is part of the whole point of the 2nd amendment, (resistance to oppression). They wouldn't hide in their ivory towers hoping the public would do their dirty work for them like a good little bitch corporation does.

Now, what are they appalled at would be being brought up as some sort of strawman like this for public propaganda.
 
Yea I am sure they would be upset about a court debate about cell phone security versus poverty, civil war, gun control, lead in water etc etc.

First we would have to start with teaching them a lot of things so that they understand enough to be upset lol.
 
snowcrash said:
Good for Apple to staying firm in their stance. So many of us are now operating under the "as long as it doesn't affect me, I don't care or do whatever is necessary". How bad can it get when it is just hacking one phone belonging to a terrorist? It is for the good of the country. Wait a minute, now you want to hack mine too? Oh hell no. Apple better do something quick to get rid of the backdoor.
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It's part of the "all about me" society we live in, but then people get confused and think it's should be all bout the collective or greater good. No, it's about putting yourself in someone else's shoes and understanding that if you were in such a position how would you hope other respond. So don't be selfish and look at the big picture.
 
pgwalsh said:
It's part of the "all about me" society we live in, but then people get confused and think it's should be all bout the collective or greater good. No, it's about putting yourself in someone else's shoes and understanding that if you were in such a position how would you hope other respond. So don't be selfish and look at the big picture.
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Emotional logic is horribly flawed because it operates on the "good intentions" model which pretty much always leads to the same spot; hell, proverbial or literal. Again...most people, even those that are heavily radicalized, see the slippery slope of the "put yourself in someone elses shoes".
 
azuza001 said:
While I am mildly interested on what is on this phone I would love to hear what the FBI honestly thinks they are going to find on it. They already have the info from the cell company, and its not like apple hasnt given them what they did have which was quite a bit. This almost seems like they didnt get everything they wanted so are trying to pull their "listen pal, we are the government, do you really want to go down this road?" Card. Good for apple for standing up and saying "You really have no idea what your asking for do you. Go ahead, lets go down this road together, you first."
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I heard it's pictures of his wife showing her bare head.
 
pgwalsh said:
It's part of the "all about me" society we live in, but then people get confused and think it's should be all bout the collective or greater good. No, it's about putting yourself in someone else's shoes and understanding that if you were in such a position how would you hope other respond. So don't be selfish and look at the big picture.
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I'm looking at the big picture. The big picture is once the encryption can be disabled, there now exists a backdoor. This is so painfully obvious I don't know why it's so hard to understand. I wish people would stop living in fear and quit being xenophobic.
 
snowcrash said:
I'm looking at the big picture. The big picture is once the encryption can be disabled, there now exists a backdoor. This is so painfully obvious I don't know why it's so hard to understand. I wish people would stop living in fear and quit being xenophobic.
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It's because people making these decisions aren't technology people. If you watched the segment on encryption with John Oliver, one of the scenes had one of the FBI people talking to congress about how to prevent the situation of the backdoor leaking out was to just throw the paper with the code in the fire after they're finished using it. I understand paper is just a metaphor but still, Tim Cook said it would take about 4-6 weeks to create the code. Obviously when the next terrorist comes along, the government don't want to wait another 4-6 weeks. And Apple developers certainly aren't going to want to develop the hack without source control, which is only going to give persistence to the code.

It's like the financial crisis in 2008. Give people who have no income and no job a million dollar loan. And our economy made a bet that those people could pay it off.

Sometimes there's just sheer stupidity at the top. The problem is, these people can't see the big picture. They only see today's problem, and only looking to make a tiny gain today, even at the cost of total annihilation tomorrow.
 
what a load of hot steaming bovine excrement...

The Founders specifically addressed this matter as a governmental prohibition against "unreasonable" searches and seizures. Examining the contents of a dead terrorist phone for incriminating documents is "reasonable"...
 
"Three branches of government" just means the government says the government can do whatever the government wants.
 
thejokker said:
what a load of hot steaming bovine excrement...

The Founders specifically addressed this matter as a governmental prohibition against "unreasonable" searches and seizures. Examining the contents of a dead terrorist phone for incriminating documents is "reasonable"...
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No one's arguing about the terrorist's phone and the government not being allowed to search it. This isn't about that. This is about giving the government a master key which can be used on anyone's phone and whether or not they're responsible enough to overextend it to "unreasonable" or even lose the master key to more disreputable parties.
 
Nytegard said:
No one's arguing about the terrorist's phone and the government not being allowed to search it. This isn't about that. This is about giving the government a master key which can be used on anyone's phone and whether or not they're responsible enough to overextend it to "unreasonable" or even lose the master key to more disreputable parties.
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There was also the threat to request (headline uses the word "seize") the iOS source code so that they (FBI) could do it themselves. ... which would be an even bigger issue.
 
MV75 said:
What the founding fathers would do would be to exercise their 2nd amendment rights and march on the white house armed to the teeth and take control, as that is part of the whole point of the 2nd amendment, (resistance to oppression). They wouldn't hide in their ivory towers hoping the public would do their dirty work for them like a good little bitch corporation does.

Now, what are they appalled at would be being brought up as some sort of strawman like this for public propaganda.
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Totally they would do that. Or maybe read about the whiskey rebellion, when people thought about doing just that and George Washington raised an army to put them down.
 
snowcrash said:
Good for Apple to staying firm in their stance. So many of us are now operating under the "as long as it doesn't affect me, I don't care or do whatever is necessary". How bad can it get when it is just hacking one phone belonging to a terrorist? It is for the good of the country. Wait a minute, now you want to hack mine too? Oh hell no. Apple better do something quick to get rid of the backdoor.
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There is a huge difference between hacking the phone of a terrorist and hacking the phones of private citizens. If the government suspected you were involved in bad things than there are a whole lot of things they could also do that would make the phone hack almost pointless. "If" the government is going to go after you than you are in a world of shit.
Nytegard said:
No one's arguing about the terrorist's phone and the government not being allowed to search it. This isn't about that. This is about giving the government a master key which can be used on anyone's phone and whether or not they're responsible enough to overextend it to "unreasonable" or even lose the master key to more disreputable parties.
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No... Because Apple could just defuse this whole situation by opening the phone for the FBI. Apple keeps "the key" and everybody is happy. Only Apple is not doing that and pretending to be protecting everybody when they are just protecting the terrorist.
 
thejokker said:
what a load of hot steaming bovine excrement...

The Founders specifically addressed this matter as a governmental prohibition against "unreasonable" searches and seizures. Examining the contents of a dead terrorist phone for incriminating documents is "reasonable"...
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Searching a criminal's phone. Reasonable.
Forcing a company to spend development time (see money) creating a broken version of their product so the government can view said phone. Unreasonable.
Expecting said company to do so without renumeration. Unreasonable.
Expecting them to do this endlessly (as other states have already come forward wanting other phones unlocked). Unreasonable.
Expecting this code to remain "secret" and inviolate once created. ESPECIALLY if it is turned over to government control. Unreasonable.
Expecting a company to create a something like this which could completely destroy their legitimate business. Unreasonable.
Expecting the government, which is KNOWN to be corrupt and involved in illegal activities, which cannot keep their OWN secrets, to be a trustworthy custodian of this sort of tool. Unreasonable. Unreasonable. Unreasonable.

Does that clarify things for you?
 
Chas said:
Searching a criminal's phone. Reasonable.
Forcing a company to spend development time (see money) creating a broken version of their product so the government can view said phone. Unreasonable.
Expecting said company to do so without renumeration. Unreasonable.
Expecting them to do this endlessly (as other states have already come forward wanting other phones unlocked). Unreasonable.
Expecting this code to remain "secret" and inviolate once created. ESPECIALLY if it is turned over to government control. Unreasonable.
Expecting a company to create a something like this which could completely destroy their legitimate business. Unreasonable.
Expecting the government, which is KNOWN to be corrupt and involved in illegal activities, which cannot keep their OWN secrets, to be a trustworthy custodian of this sort of tool. Unreasonable. Unreasonable. Unreasonable.

Does that clarify things for you?
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Well said.
 
thejokker said:
There is a huge difference between hacking the phone of a terrorist and hacking the phones of private citizens. If the government suspected you were involved in bad things than there are a whole lot of things they could also do that would make the phone hack almost pointless. "If" the government is going to go after you than you are in a world of shit.

No... Because Apple could just defuse this whole situation by opening the phone for the FBI. Apple keeps "the key" and everybody is happy. Only Apple is not doing that and pretending to be protecting everybody when they are just protecting the terrorist.
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Oh gimme a break.

Something like what the government is asking Apple to create poses a major security threat to ALL Apple IOS devices.
And you think the government is just going to use it "only on the bad people"?
That's delusional at best.

The government has a long and sordid history of illegally overstepping boundaries. Look at the FBI, now being given unfettered access to NSA data. Meaning anyone who wants to look a specific person up doesn't even need to process a request for the information, or get a court order. They can just go in and look themselves. Regardless of whether or not the person's been accused of a crime.

Illegal wiretaps and Stingray use?

Hell, the IRS illegally targeting organizations of an opposing political bent for additional oversight.

And you think we should just blindly trust these people?

Not to mention, the government springing security leaks with a disheartening frequency.

But hey, storing something like this, which could potentially affect 40-something MILLION iPhone users, with the government will keep it safe right?

Get serious.
 
Zigmorph said:
How did the founders feel about slave child labor?
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I'm sure they didn't mind. The founders had slaves. I'm sure a child did some of the same duties as an adult did back in those times, we would probably even consider it slavery by today's standards.
 
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