I hear a of a lot of folks getting good results with the apex kit, but I like the looks of the aqua setups a little better. Can anyone give me an idea of how these two setups would compare? If I went with the aqua I would go with the 120 evo mounted @ the top of my coolermaster praetorian.
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Apex Kit vs. Aqua
- Thread starter TheToE!
- Start date
performance wise... apex would win hands down no contest.
for absolute lowest noise... i would say AC using an aquastream pump (basically an eheim 1046)... but the Apex using a laing DDC would come very very close in a closed case.
for pure bling... personally... AC wins here.
But in the end it's up to you...
many will reply saying go for AC... many will reply saying go for the Apex.
for absolute lowest noise... i would say AC using an aquastream pump (basically an eheim 1046)... but the Apex using a laing DDC would come very very close in a closed case.
for pure bling... personally... AC wins here.
But in the end it's up to you...
many will reply saying go for AC... many will reply saying go for the Apex.
Erasmus354
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TheToE! said:
Thats because it is a beast
There is nothing really stopping you from using larger tubing with an AC setup. The Cuplex XT would probably kiss your feet if you did so. TBH some of the newer AC blocks like the XT would probably benefit from using larger tubing. However, most people who buy AC gear are less concerned about performance which is why they go with dinky tubing.
One thing I dont like is comparing the two based upon noise...in a watercooling system the noise is wholly dependent upon the pump and the fans. These two things can be switched as you desire to be quiet in ANY system. The STORM performs very well at flows as low as 1GPM, so you could turn down the D5 to a slower setting and undervolt the fans and voila! a near silent system.
In the end it comes down to personal preference, I prefer the APEX kit as I believe it offers the best performance...and if you so choose can also be pretty darn silent. Either one will have its plusses and minuses, and both will keep your processor cool.
Erasmus354
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norky said:
This is my tubing classifications (hehe) :
6mm ID : Dinky (This is what many people use in AC or other euro systems)
8mm ID : Kinda Small
10mm (3/8") ID : Medium-Small
7/16" ID : Medium-Large
1/2" ID : Kinda Large
3/4" ID : Ginormous
Personally I think the Medium range is where most all systems should be as this offers the best tradeoff between size and performance. There are exceptions however (like always).
Erasmus354 said:
ROFL
Let's see...tubing is much like rubbers:
6mm (1/4") ID = Big enough to do the job
8mm (5/16") ID = A little bigger and does the job
10mm (3/8") ID = Works great and it's as big as you want
7/16" ID = Ain't mine bigger than yours?
1/2" ID = Mine is definitely bigger than yours!
3/4" ID = Liar's size
Top Nurse said:
I would say that it's mathematically proven that 7/16" ID works great and is as big as you ever want or need. People who say that smaller tubing is just fine might pretend to be happy with it and will tell others that as some form of mutual reassurance, but in their heart of hearts, they're wishing the tubing they had was really 7/16" ID.
ROFL....but not me. But since I am putting a flowmeter into both my GPU and the CPU/NB loops with 6mm ID tubing I shoudl have a very "real" frame of reference when I go to 8mm and finally 3/8" ID. It will be fun to see what if anything changes and how it affects the computers ability to do what it needs to do. WIth the price of Aquaero's coming down significantly perhaps we will see more people reporting real world flows in bigger tubing. I think people who claim stupendows flows should tell us what it really is.
The effectiveness of larger tubing is also depending on who's doing the pushing. Can have a large tube, but if the thing doing the pushing is weak, then it just won't be doing justice to the size of the tubing on hand, in which case one may as well go with something smaller.
Much as I am loathe to bring in a car analogy, one does not assess the performance of top grade racing slicks at a race track by sticking a 50hp engine under the hood. Do that, and for sure one will come to the conclusion that nothing more than standard street legal tyres are all that is ever needed. Put a 500hp engine under the hood and pretty soon one appreciates the benefits of super sticky race rubber.
Unless your pump is providing greater than 1W of hydraulic power, then it's unlikely that one will ever see much of a difference with any tubing larger than 3/8", and will likely see a very minimal difference between 8mm and 3/8".
Much as I am loathe to bring in a car analogy, one does not assess the performance of top grade racing slicks at a race track by sticking a 50hp engine under the hood. Do that, and for sure one will come to the conclusion that nothing more than standard street legal tyres are all that is ever needed. Put a 500hp engine under the hood and pretty soon one appreciates the benefits of super sticky race rubber.
Unless your pump is providing greater than 1W of hydraulic power, then it's unlikely that one will ever see much of a difference with any tubing larger than 3/8", and will likely see a very minimal difference between 8mm and 3/8".
Uhh oh the car analogy is to be avoided at all costs.
Yes I see what you mean, but the stuff that goes aroung in this forum seems to focus on tube size as the be all end all to watercooling. So I thougt I might put out some real world numbers based on a modded 1046 that equates 1048 flow. The pump should be sufiicient to the task and all the tubing sizes contemplated.
the car analogy is to be avoided at all costs. Yes I see what you mean, but the stuff that goes aroung in this forum seems to focus on tube size as the be all end all to watercooling. So I thougt I might put out some real world numbers based on a modded 1046 that equates 1048 flow. The pump should be sufiicient to the task and all the tubing sizes contemplated.
Nah, nothing to be gained with a 1048 equiv. pump for tubing larger than 3/8", and if the waterblocks are fairly restrictive as yours are, then nothing really to be gained above 8mm either.
Pumps like the Iwaki MD20RZ's are quite literally 5x stronger than the pump you have and it's with these sorts of pumps that the differences will be noted.
Water-cooling is all about balance, not about one thing rules all. A 1048 is nicely balanced with 3/8" tubing. If the blocks are quite restrictive, then 8mm is fine. If the blocks are extremely unrestrictive, then 7/16" will help. Have to match it all together and assess it all together.
What you're attempting, while admirable, reminds me greatly of several flawed assessments I saw done a few years back at a number of German sites where they were using an Eheim 1046 and a 1048, and attempting to derive the "best tubing size to use". Given the waterblocks they were using they quite rightly settled upon 6mm as being acceptable, 8mm as being as large as was needed, and anything larger being of no benefit.
Their conclusion was perfectly correct given the pumps, radiators, and waterblocks at hand, but it was only correct for their scenario.
Most of the guys here are coming from the angle of very low restriction blocks, and high powered pumps, in which case 1/2" ID was traditionally justifiable (until 7/16" was "discovered").
Funny thing is though is that as Anglo-blocks (UK, USA, Oz) slowly became as restrictive as they needed to be for top performance, we find that 3/8" ID is now fine for most scenarios, and 7/16" is as large as anyone ever needs to use for those who want the last few 0.1C's with their stronger pumps.
Pumps like the Iwaki MD20RZ's are quite literally 5x stronger than the pump you have and it's with these sorts of pumps that the differences will be noted.
Water-cooling is all about balance, not about one thing rules all. A 1048 is nicely balanced with 3/8" tubing. If the blocks are quite restrictive, then 8mm is fine. If the blocks are extremely unrestrictive, then 7/16" will help. Have to match it all together and assess it all together.
What you're attempting, while admirable, reminds me greatly of several flawed assessments I saw done a few years back at a number of German sites where they were using an Eheim 1046 and a 1048, and attempting to derive the "best tubing size to use". Given the waterblocks they were using they quite rightly settled upon 6mm as being acceptable, 8mm as being as large as was needed, and anything larger being of no benefit.
Their conclusion was perfectly correct given the pumps, radiators, and waterblocks at hand, but it was only correct for their scenario.
Most of the guys here are coming from the angle of very low restriction blocks, and high powered pumps, in which case 1/2" ID was traditionally justifiable (until 7/16" was "discovered").
Funny thing is though is that as Anglo-blocks (UK, USA, Oz) slowly became as restrictive as they needed to be for top performance, we find that 3/8" ID is now fine for most scenarios, and 7/16" is as large as anyone ever needs to use for those who want the last few 0.1C's with their stronger pumps.
Erasmus354
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The hard thing to analyze with AC gear however--due to the lack of adequate testing--is whether or not your are choking your waterblocks. As Cathar has stated, for the restriction and pumping power in your loop you may very well not see much of a performance increase by going to a larger tubing size. However with some of the newer AC designs you might very well see a large performance increase by getting a stronger pump and larger tubing. It would be interesting to see that tested...maybe if someone can get some AC blocks over to systemcooling.com we could see some nice tests.
Cathar said:People who say that smaller tubing is just fine might pretend to be happy with it and will tell others that as some form of mutual reassurance, but in their heart of hearts, they're wishing the tubing they had was really 7/16" ID.
That's true.
Oh god is that true :cry
unless you know and account for the pressure drop also across the flowmeter you will learn littleTop Nurse said:ROFL....but not me. But since I am putting a flowmeter into both my GPU and the CPU/NB loops with 6mm ID tubing I shoudl have a very "real" frame of reference when I go to 8mm and finally 3/8" ID. It will be fun to see what if anything changes and how it affects the computers ability to do what it needs to do. WIth the price of Aquaero's coming down significantly perhaps we will see more people reporting real world flows in bigger tubing. I think people who claim stupendows flows should tell us what it really is.
the flow rates for the Swiftech kits are posted on their site
the Aqua kits' are where ?
Depends on the thickness of the "wall". You can have 1/2" OD and 3/8" ID if your wall thickness is 1/8 total.
Most of the time people refer to ID because that's what's usually more important (unless you are using quick connect fittings in which case you'll be needing to get the appropriate OD).
For example, you can get 3/8" ID tubing that is 1/2" OD or you can get some that uses thicker walls and it will have 5/8" OD.
Although this is very simple really, it confused me too until I started thinking about it from the right angle, so-to-speak.
It helped when I understood that OD = ID + Wall Thickness.
Now some people will tell you that OD = ID + Inner Wall + Outer Wall but that just seems stupid to me.
BTW norky, if you're like me, you'll feel kinda silly when you "get it".
Most of the time people refer to ID because that's what's usually more important (unless you are using quick connect fittings in which case you'll be needing to get the appropriate OD).
For example, you can get 3/8" ID tubing that is 1/2" OD or you can get some that uses thicker walls and it will have 5/8" OD.
Although this is very simple really, it confused me too until I started thinking about it from the right angle, so-to-speak.
It helped when I understood that OD = ID + Wall Thickness.
Now some people will tell you that OD = ID + Inner Wall + Outer Wall but that just seems stupid to me.
BTW norky, if you're like me, you'll feel kinda silly when you "get it".
Erasmus354
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WarlordBB said:
The OD is the ID + 2x the Wall Thickness...not one time. This is because it is a circular tube and the walls are on two sides
So if the walls are 1/16" thick than you need to add 1/8" to the ID.Erasmus354 said:
I think you might very well be correct as certain people have noticed that when AC came out with the Cuplex XT they suddenly decided that the DDC was "okay" and started selling it.
I have talked to Sharka till I am blue in the face about getting the AC blocks tested and I have come to the conclusion they just aren't interested. I know that Franz at IT-Trade sent them a Cuplex XT specifically for testing here in the states, but...Perhaps I could send them my Silver XT if I could get it back in a few weeks.
Bio-Hazard
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Top Nurse said:I think you might very well be correct as certain people have noticed that when AC came out with the Cuplex XT they suddenly decided that the DDC was "okay" and started selling it.
Perhaps I could send them my Silver XT if I could get it back in a few weeks.
There is also a new version of the DDC pump coming out if it's not out already, with much more power. I don't have all the specs yet but here's what I've heard from a little birdie I know that works at a special company...............
"Well, the DDC pump has more power now. The flow rate has increased too. 12V@18W is higher than the original 12V@10W. I don't have the full number for lph nor the pressure side discharge rate yet. The upgraded DDC is near the D5 performance. It could be higher if a person does the Lee mod to it."
BillA said:
Indeed. This is not limited to AC either. There is a certain reasonably popular US waterblock maker whose blocks have been reviewed by minor reviewers far and wide, and yet when it comes to the more serious reviewers with proper test equipment, suddenly the message is that there are no blocks available for reviewing purposes.
To be sure, plenty of companies out there making a living from avoiding detailed reviewers and instead focusing on the non-technical hungry review sites who will say much of anything for an advertising dollar or increased exposure.
Then there's the radiically evolved breed of manufacturer/retailer who makes a habit of slandering any and all calls for correct reviewing of products even by sites traditionally known to be trusted, except of course for the "reviews" which said manufacturer/retailers host at their own site, and then it's all okay (for them).
Erasmus354
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Top Nurse said:Perhaps I could send them my Silver XT if I could get it back in a few weeks.
I would donate the shipping costs
Most people think I am some sort of high flow !!!!!!, when really I am just a person who is a VERY VERY VERY cautious consumer. I read everything I can find about something before I purchase it (even video games, furniture, you name it) and only like to make the most educated purchasing decisions....which is why I think so little of AC because frankly I know nothing about them other then they look nice
(I also value performance over looks
, although if the AC blocks finally get a reputable test done it might show that they have performance AND looks.)Top Nurse said:Perhaps I could send them my Silver XT if I could get it back in a few weeks.
Yeah.. wouldn't it be great if we could test all the blocks that we wanted to compare, all at the same time.
I'd happily contribute to it too.
I think it would be best if some people could donate blocks for testing, and if there isn't a block available... then we could all contribute some money as a community to buy the blocks from retail and test them regardless of whether a company wants to supply a review sample or not.
J-Pepper said:
I too have heard a little about this new DDC. From what I understand it's essentially a speed boosted DDC, providing greater head and flow.
Given the 10W vs 18W, which is something that I had not heard before, we can predict around a 5.5-6.0mH2O peak pressure, and around a 7.5LPM peak flow rate, if the pump body is not modified from the existing body.
Make the pump inlet straight in, rather than the right angle abomination that it currently is, and it'd be a gnat's whisker away from being my "wet dream" pump.
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Cathar said:
Of course the big question is...at what cost to noise does this added performance come at? If it is still as quiet as the current DDC
... and ... Bio-Hazard
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From what I've heard the niose levels have stayed the same and that some of the new pumps are being sold as the old version from a certain retailer. But then again, that's just what I heard.......................